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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/24/2008 11:31:48 PM
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HisFish
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From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
Can you cast the first stone or even go into a death penalty chamber and pull the lever?
for the sake of arguement if it was john wayne gacy in there, i could throw the switch and eat a ham sandwich at the same time for all it would bother me. (he's already dead i know, just an example)
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 1:12:48 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
So acccording to some, we live by the Law in the Ot.
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Again good try, but do we, me and you Christians living in America live by the Law in the OT?
Yes or no?
quote:
I trust that Jesus will make my aim straigt and true if God forbid it ever came to me having to defend myself and or family. No less than He guided the rock to the head of Goliath...
For real, you really hope that? So turn the other cheek means what?
quote:
Where does Jesus say kill those who kill others?
I believe I posted the verses regarding this as per your request in the first few pages of this thread...
Please just tell me one verse where JESUS says to kill those who kill others?
quote:
Justly putting a person to death for their deeds it biblica... Allowing abortion and promoting the homosexual agenda isn't...
but what about the innocents?
so let me be clear? You are saying tha G-d is ok with us killing criminals, or people we think are criminals?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 2:36:34 AM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1100
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Where did Jesus tell people to kill those who kill? Easy. Since Christ Jesus is the WORD of God, and infact God in the flesh, just open your bible to several dozen places in the Old Testament.
Either God IS the same yesterday, today and Forever, and Christ Jesus IS God in the flesh.
Or God is not the same yesterday and today and Jesus is NOT God in the flesh.
You cant say that Jesus never said to kill anyone, because He did. You cant say that His will changed, because it is the same yesterday as it is today.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 12:18:10 PM
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tracydolls
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quote:
Where did Jesus tell people to kill those who kill? Easy. Since Christ Jesus is the WORD of God, and infact God in the flesh, just open your bible to several dozen places in the Old Testament.
Either God IS the same yesterday, today and Forever, and Christ Jesus IS God in the flesh.
Or God is not the same yesterday and today and Jesus is NOT God in the flesh.
You cant say that Jesus never said to kill anyone, because He did. You cant say that His will changed, because it is the same yesterday as it is today.
So after He came here in the flesh He says to kill people. That's what we should do? Where is that, please the verse?
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 6/25/2008 12:25:19 PM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 1:06:51 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Rev. 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword,
that with it he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadest the winepress of the
fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
New Age: He comes with lillies and daisies
spreading joy to all men. la la la la la
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 2:52:53 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Rev. 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword,
that with it he should smite the nations:
and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadest the winepress of the
fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
sorry no cigar!
That is what G-d is going to do! Where does it say man should put other men to death those they think are criminals.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 2:59:46 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
That is what G-d is going to do! Where does it say man should put other men to death those they think are criminals.
It is ordained by God according to His word in Romans 13:
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Please note that a sword does not carry out a life sentence in jail. Its purpose, when used as designed, is to end life.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 3:19:22 PM
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tracydolls
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So then Jesus was killed righteously?
He broke the law of the land, and Pilate did what he was to do according to these verses?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 3:26:57 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
So then Jesus was killed righteously?
He broke the law of the land, and Pilate did what he was to do according to these verses?
I'm just the messenger...
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 3:43:14 PM
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tracydolls
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The messanger for who? I guess would be my next question?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 3:49:34 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
The messanger for who? I guess would be my next question?
The Bible. None of what I quoted from Romans 13 originated with me.
Keep in mind that the man who penned the book of Romans spent a lot of time in Roman prisons and, eventually, was executed by Rome. Yet he contended that governments, even the Roman government, were ordained by God to wield the sword as stated above. He even used his Roman citizenship to his advantage and to the benefit of the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 4:23:37 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 626
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
So then Jesus was killed righteously?
He broke the law of the land, and Pilate did what he was to do according to these verses?
There are many instances where the law was applied unjustly, that dosent invalidate law though. By your reasoning we would do away with traffic laws because someone was given a speeding ticket even though they were innocent of speeding, or someone unjustly accused of theft so we do away with laws that forbid it. You can take this spurious line of reasoning anywhere.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 8:17:18 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
Interesting you should bring up v. 21 as justification for capital punishment, without v. 22 as well. Does this mean the government also has the authority to judge - to kill, in your argument - those who are angry with their brother?
Anger isn't hate... And since you brought it up the verse speaks of hate WITHOUT cause...
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Given the stipulation it's not wrong to "hate" but to do so without cause...
quote:
The Scriptures taken from Matthew refer to divine, not human, judgement.
The judgment Christ is referring to is for the deed and it has both temporal and possible eternal consequences... To say it's only a matter of divine is to negate the law in the temporal sense... Jesus didn't suspend the law... Actually He expanded it to thoughts being as wrong as doing the deed itself...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 8:20:23 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
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quote:
The Bible. None of what I quoted from Romans 13 originated with me.
Keep in mind that the man who penned the book of Romans spent a lot of time in Roman prisons and, eventually, was executed by Rome. Yet he contended that governments, even the Roman government, were ordained by God to wield the sword as stated above. He even used his Roman citizenship to his advantage and to the benefit of the spread of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Ahhh... now we are getting somewhere. Have you read any of the commentaries about these verses?
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 8:32:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Again good try, but do we, me and you Christians living in America live by the Law in the OT?
The fact we don't doesn't it negate it... Sorry, but the NT isn't the Word of God sans the OT... The OT is the foundation of the NT and much like those who believe in God only and not Jesus those who believe the OT is obsolete only have part of the truth, whiich is really not truth at all...
quote:
For real, you really hope that?
Yes... Without a pause...
Btw... Do you believe David MURDERED Goliath?
quote:
So turn the other cheek means what?
Give my other daugther to the rapist? Allow someone to murder my wife? Do you understand for me to allow one to murder my wife is for me to break the 5th Commandment?
quote:
Please just tell me one verse where JESUS says to kill those who kill others?
God told Moses to kill those who didn't choose God... Moses and others put 1000's to the sword... You can believe that Jesus wasn't around at the time but that is a denial of Him...
Roman 13.... The Word of God... One doesn't need to quote Jesus, Jesus is The WORD!
and the verses I quoted to you in this thread as per your request...
quote:
but what about the innocents?
What about them? Surely God took into account the idea that man isn't perfect when He ordained
quote:
so let me be clear? You are saying tha G-d is ok with us killing criminals, or people we think are criminals?
He mandates death for criminals... If one is to take the bible at face value the onus is on those to show where the civil governemnt is NOT supposed to put criminals to death...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 8:34:55 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
Where did Jesus tell people to kill those who kill? Easy. Since Christ Jesus is the WORD of God, and infact God in the flesh, just open your bible to several dozen places in the Old Testament.
Either God IS the same yesterday, today and Forever, and Christ Jesus IS God in the flesh.
Or God is not the same yesterday and today and Jesus is NOT God in the flesh.
You cant say that Jesus never said to kill anyone, because He did. You cant say that His will changed, because it is the same yesterday as it is today.
So after He came here in the flesh He says to kill people. That's what we should do? Where is that, please the verse?
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
You are advocating that Christ changed in the face of direct scripture...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/25/2008 8:43:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
So then Jesus was killed righteously?
He broke the law of the land, and Pilate did what he was to do according to these verses?
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The law of the land cannot make what is righteoues, evil... Jesus did the will of the Father and was put to death for it and Pilate was told by Christ that the origin of Pilate's power to put him to death was from God and as well his action(knowingly judging against an innocent person) was sinful...
John 19:10-11. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Romans 13 doesn't say, nor imply that whatever law or ruling that the civil government implenmts is good...
Peter makes it clear on who we are to obey first and foremost...
1 Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
We are to honor the laws of man that don't conflict with God and or put us in a place where we are forced to sin against God to obey man since there is never an excuse to disobey God... Honor man, the king(the law), FEAR GOD....
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/26/2008 2:19:59 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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The mindset that all killing is "murder" is held by
those who could care less what the Scripture says.
Man was created in God's image.
Gen. 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man
shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God
made he man."
The first man who shed another's blood is guilty of "murder."
Thou shalt not murder. (Ex. 20)
The executioner is the "man" that deals out "justice."
God is Just. To deny that a murderer is not to be put to
death is to call God unjust. Simple as that.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/26/2008 3:39:46 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Man was created in God's image.
Gen. 9:6 "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man
shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God
made he man."
Since this one seems to use the same wording for both acts of killing, it wouldn't appear to support your point all that well.
quote:
The mindset that all killing is "murder" is held by
those who could care less what the Scripture says.
I don't think anyone here has said they don't care about Scripture.
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/26/2008 9:26:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
Since this one seems to use the same wording for both acts of killing, it wouldn't appear to support your point all that well.
Given the biblical theme of justice it would appear you are mistaken...
John
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/27/2008 12:47:31 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
You are advocating that Christ changed in the face of direct scripture...
No I'm not advocating anything. You are putting words on the screen. When Jesus died on the CROSS for us all. We no longer live under the OLD LAW.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
quote:
We are to honor the laws of man that don't conflict with God and or put us in a place where we are forced to sin against God to obey man since there is never an excuse to disobey God... Honor man, the king(the law), FEAR GOD....
Can I have that verse please that says we are to honor the laws that don't conflict with man.
Do you know how many laws that is?
Just guess how many laws were unjust to AA's in this country?
Having a legal abortion is a law in this country.
So We should NOT follow the ones we deem unsinful?
And your response is we should murder them that murder babies?
Why do you trust the Gov't to be fair, again if they slaughter innocent babies, they surely slaughter innocent people. 
< Message edited by tracydolls -- 6/27/2008 12:53:35 AM >
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/27/2008 1:31:06 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
No I'm not advocating anything. You are putting words on the screen. When Jesus died on the CROSS for us all. We no longer live under the OLD LAW.
Ok... So it's ok to murder, steal, lie and not honor God?
quote:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus was summing up the two tables of the 10 Commandments... The first table being those laws regarding God and the second our interaction with man... Read the 10 Commandments and this will all make sense...
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment
Exodus 20
3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The above is how one loves the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Exodus 20
12. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13. Thou shalt not kill.
14. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15. Thou shalt not steal.
16. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Obey the above regarding your neighbor and guess what? Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself...
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Kinda neat how that adds up?
quote:
Can I have that verse please that says we are to honor the laws that don't conflict with man. Again...
Peter makes it clear on who we are to obey first and foremost...
1 Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
We are to honor the laws of man that don't conflict with God and or put us in a place where we are forced to sin against God to obey man since there is never an excuse to disobey God... Honor man, the king(the law), FEAR GOD....
quote:
Do you know how many laws that is?
Doesn't matter...
quote:
Just guess how many laws were unjust to AA's in this country?
Zillion?
quote:
Having a legal abortion is a law in this country.
Doesn't make it lawful in the eyes of God... In fact for the government to says it's ok to murder an unborn child is a great sin...
quote:
So We should NOT follow the ones we deem unsinful?
We are told to obey...
1 Peter 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
1 Peter 2:14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
quote:
And your response is we should murder them that murder babies?
Flawed logic... It's biblically lawful to put to death those who murder... If I personally shot someone who murdered a child I would be committing murder, yet if the state does it justly it's not murder... To ignore this distinction one ends up making a case for God being a mass murderer and as well those He commanded...
quote:
Why do you trust the Gov't to be fair, again if they slaughter innocent babies, they surely slaughter innocent people
My trust is in God, and in the fact they He ordained the civil goernment to be HIS minister of wrath for those who do evil.... The awful failure of the state to allow the murder of unborn children doesn't remove the ordained purpose of dealing with those who do evil... The Romans murdered countless numbers of the people, yet when they made a just ruling, for instance the thief promised Paradise, it was just...
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 6/27/2008 1:39:21 AM >
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RE: The Death Penalty: For or Against? - 6/27/2008 1:47:09 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment
Exodus 20
3. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
The above is how one loves the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Exodus 20
12. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
13. Thou shalt not kill.
14. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15. Thou shalt not steal.
16. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Obey the above regarding your neighbor and guess what? Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself...
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Kinda neat how that adds up?
I thought it all added up to LOVE.
God and people. Because God is LOVE.
quote:
Can you think of an excuse that will suffice for breaking God's law?
NO, but I probaly do it a zillion times a day?
quote:
My trust is in God, and in the fact they He ordained the civil goernment to be HIS minister of wrath for those who do evil.... The awful failure of the state to allow the murder of unborn children doesn't remove the ordained purpose of dealing with those who do evil... The Romans murdered countless numbers of the people, yet when they made a just ruling, for instance the thief promised Paradise, it was just...
OK. Whenever I see the word civil gov't, or King, I think of what God told Israel when they asked for their first one.
I just don't know WHAT gov't is a civil one.
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Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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