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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/28/2008 11:30:27 AM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
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Thanks GraceBro, we are in agreement, and you wrote exactly what i was eluding to, I know and am convinced that all things are clean of itself: meaning it is what I do with it, knowing that God through his son
( Christ cleared the deck and cleaned all things) To ask for further forgiveness is calling god a liar when he yelled from the cross it is finished. When he said in Hebrews 6, there is no further forgiveness, anyway, ever since trusting god to show me, he has and he has from this taken away so much, that was besetting me big time, and l am continuing to trust him, knowing his grace is sufficient for me.
Again Thanks
ineffable love
quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceBro
quote:
I have ?'s. When you do sin again, (if you do). What is one to do? If it is to ask for forgiveness again, where is the shedding of blood? is not there no forgiveness w/o the shedding of blood? So if not to ask for further forgiveness, what do we do with our sin? Sins? I ask this because I still sin, and repetitious. It is as if it is my board in my side, which does keep me humble. I know it does not hurt my neighbor, yet I think it hurts me, and therefore I am in need of grace. Is this taking advantage of grace, continuing in failures? Does it mean I have not repented?
Hi loveineffable,
You are beginning to understand the finished work of Christ (John 19:30). You are correct in questioning how simply asking forgiveness or confessing your sin equates to the shed blood required for forgiveness. It does not! All your sins, from the day you were born until the day you go home to be with the Lord were taken away at the cross (Romans 5:10).
When you sin, all you can do is recognize that the sin was so terrible that it requires death to propitiate God. And not even your death is good enough to obtain God's forgiveness. Thus, what you do is thank God that Jesus died for that sin (Romans 7:25). He is the only one that had a life to give that would satisfy God. When you accepted Christ as Savior, you also received the forgiveness purchased for you at the Cross (Ephesians 1:7). Therefore, when you sin, you don't ask for the forgiveness you already have, but rather you approach God in your time of need in order to find out where it was you weren't trusting God with an area of your life (Hebrews 4:16).
If you have been given everything you need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3) and been blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ (Ephesians 1:3), what else do you need? Many of the times we sin, it is because we don't know what we have in Christ, and are seeking from the world that which it can only provide through some form of sin. The christian life is not about trying to stop sinning and then trying to seek additional forgiveness for sin when we commit it. The christian life is about trusting God, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to lead us and guide us through this life (Titus 2:11-12). As we do this, we will see a diminishing of the sin in our lives, but not a total elimination of it. Our sins remind us of how much we need to rely on God (2 Corinthians 12:9).
The sin issue between man and God is over (Hebrews 9:12). God is no longer dealing with us on the basis of sin and death. God is dealing with us on the basis of a new life in Christ (Romans 8:2). God already has forgiven us and sees us as holy and blameless because of Christ's imputed righteousness (Colossians 1:22). You must learn how God sees you, your identity in Christ, in order to deal with the sin in your life. As a child of God, you are able to discern if something you are engaged in is consistent with who you are in Christ (Philippians 1:10). That is how you learn to depend on, and put trust in, the Holy Spirit. If you are trapped in the never-ending cycle of sin, confession, forgiveness, sin, confession, forgiveness, you will find it difficult to grow in your relationship with God, because you will always feel there is something between you and Him. Our relationship with God is not dependent on what we do, but on what He has done (1 Corinthians 1:9).
By continuing to ask God to do what He has already done, you are insulting the spirit of Grace (Hebrews 10:29) by insinuating that Jesus didn't take away all your sins. Furthermore, how do you forgive others as you have been forgiven (Ephesians 4:32) if you don't believe you have been forgiven? Jesus died for you so He could live in you. And He couldn't live in you if there was still sin left unforgiven. Christians are urged to be reconciled to God because God has been reconciled to us (2 Corinthians 5:19-21). Continuing to ask for His forgiveness is evidence you are not reconciled to Him.
I think you have experienced the average Christian responses and solutions to dealing with your sins. Keeping short accounts, answering altar calls, saying prayers of pennance, going to confession, getting on your knees every night, rededicating yourself and so on, only to find yourself right back where you started the next time you sin. All of these actions, designed to keep us forgiven, are sacrifices for sin God neither requires nor accepts (Hebrews 10:17-18). Perhaps, if it isn't working for you it is because that is not what God expects from you.
If God was, in Christ, not counting our sins against us, why are you counting your sins against you?
Grace and Peace
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RE: Confusing verses. - 6/28/2008 12:04:56 PM
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GraceBro
Posts: 329
Joined: 12/17/2005
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quote:
Thanks GraceBro, we are in agreement, and you wrote exactly what i was eluding to, I know and am convinced that all things are clean of itself: meaning it is what I do with it, knowing that God through his son
( Christ cleared the deck and cleaned all things) To ask for further forgiveness is calling god a liar when he yelled from the cross it is finished. When he said in Hebrews 6, there is no further forgiveness, anyway, ever since trusting god to show me, he has and he has from this taken away so much, that was besetting me big time, and l am continuing to trust him, knowing his grace is sufficient for me.
Again Thanks
ineffable love
You are very welcome!! And Amen to what you wrote!
Grace and Peace
_____________________________
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
www.livinggodministries.net
http://360.yahoo.com/idog96
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/8/2008 6:46:58 PM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/14/2008
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When Protestants speak of "Christ's finished work on the Cross", they seem to be assuming that Christ is accomplishing nothing else for us, in terms of human redemption. Also, there is no passage in the Bible that says or implies Christ had finished His work at the Cross. He certainly finished a "work" at the Cross, but by no means did Christ retire; He also rose from the dead. He appeared to eyewitnesses. He ascended back to His Father. He will return again to judge the living and the dead. Therefore, Christ has not "finished" His work.
When Christ says "It is finished", it's not entirely clear what He is speaking about there. Certainly his physical life was finished; but how does one reach the conclusion that He was speaking of anything more than just His physical life?
It's also become fashionable to say that the Gospel is just the "death of Christ"; however, it's more than that. I just mentioned, in the first paragraph of my post, the synopsis of the Gospel. The Gospel is the Incarnation in all it's aspects: the birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension and return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore, there cannot be one ultimate understanding of the meaning of the "Good News". Yes Christ died for our sins. But He also gave us an example; to walk as He did. To take up our cross daily, in imitation of Him.
To say that Christ is Savior and Lord is nothing other than this: Christ cannot save you unless you follow Him as Lord. Christ is the truth and the life; but He is also the Way. And we cannot be said to be "saved" if our way is not behind Him as He leads us. Yes, Christ may have "saved" you. But He is also, as we speak, "saving" you, if you are in Christ. And He will "save" you, provided you endure til the end. If indeed Christ is the Good Shepard, then He leads your way. And when you stray, He will leave the pack to come get you back.
However, the analogy is imperfect since we are not exactly like sheep; nor is our relationship to God exactly like a shepards relationship with actual sheep. We are also called "sons" and "daughters" of the Most High God. We are even called His "friends". And like human relationships, it's a two way street; although God will never leave nor forsake us.
But Christ does not deal with each of us in the exact same way, nor judge us in the same manner, since we each have different experiences, situations and struggles to contend with. This is why the book of James say "Let not many of you become teachers since you know that we will be judged in a stricter manner".
And that is also why we are told to not judge our neighbors, nor ourselves (for that matter). Only God knows all things and can make a right judgment about our self and others. We ought neither to commend nor condemn ourselves before God, but be as faithful to our calling as we are able; always remembering (in our hearts) that we are chief among sinners; ever needing to plea for the mercy of God for deliverance from the captivities of the world, the flesh and the devil.
And God is not unjust nor unsympathetic to our weaknesses (Hebrews 4:14-16). He knows we cannot live without Him; which is why the scripture says "without Me you can do nothing" and "man does not live on bread alone".
Therefore, we must live in humbleness before God; not just because He is Lord, but because He came down from heaven and walked in meekness and humility Himself; being cared for, as a baby and child, by His human mother; washing the disciples feet; healing the sick and casting away demons; weeping over fallen Jerusalem; preaching in order to save fallen Israel; accepting the jealousies, scorn and contempt of human beings; beatings; and finally, death on a Cross.
God made every provision necessary so that we may live with Him; and live like Him.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/9/2008 12:00:30 AM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic
When Protestants speak of "Christ's finished work on the Cross", they seem to be assuming that Christ is accomplishing nothing else for us, in terms of human redemption. Also, there is no passage in the Bible that says or implies Christ had finished His work at the Cross. He certainly finished a "work" at the Cross, but by no means did Christ retire; He also rose from the dead. He appeared to eyewitnesses. He ascended back to His Father. He will return again to judge the living and the dead. Therefore, Christ has not "finished" His work.
In the sense you are speaking here yes. Now in the way I am seeing this: is his work on earth. Matt. 5:17 states his purpose here on earth, to fuillfill the law and prophets. Then in John 19:30 he states it is finished.
His purpose that is to fullfill the law and prophets. In John 17 he is going through what he has accomplishd, going over what has been accomplished with his Father. John 17 1:4 stating he has finished his work here on earth. Read on though. So in context his work when he said it is finished was his work here on the earth.
His Fathers' will being completed, the lord's prayer, when he went to the cross. (remember the disciples how shall we pray Lord) Reply, Our Father =====
that is when a new covenant took place at the death of Christ on the cross, along with proof of that death via three days before ressurection.
Hebrews 9 talks about this, the new covenant put in place where God no longer views us ( the believers as sinners) he views us as Sons, adopted in by Christ's finished work at the cross. So The Holy Spirti can take up residence in the believer, and thus teach us truth, where we agree leaving sin behind, not trying to stop it on our own anylonger, realising we never could on our own, we need the redeemer Christ
Quote:
When Christ says "It is finished", it's not entirely clear what He is speaking about there. Certainly his physical life was finished; but how does one reach the conclusion that He was speaking of anything more than just His physical life?
Quote
Read the passages as previously written above
Quote
It's also become fashionable to say that the Gospel is just the "death of Christ"; however, it's more than that. I just mentioned, in the first paragraph of my post, the synopsis of the Gospel. The Gospel is the Incarnation in all it's aspects: the birth, life, death, resurrection, ascension and return of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote
The full gospel is the ressurection, one receiving that in themselves, new life and knowing this, was done by God and God alone. Christ's death, burial is one part of th whole, the ressurection is the other half.
Quote
Therefore, there cannot be one ultimate understanding of the meaning of the "Good News". Yes Christ died for our sins. But He also gave us an example; to walk as He did. To take up our cross daily, in imitation of Him.
Quote
Yes follow him to the cross see what he did for you, and thus come to the ressurection and receive life his life living in you and thus through you, via your belief in him, the way the truth and the life.
Quote
To say that Christ is Savior and Lord is nothing other than this: Christ cannot save you unless you follow Him as Lord. Christ is the truth and the life; but He is also the Way. And we cannot be said to be "saved" if our way is not behind Him as He leads us. Yes, Christ may have "saved" you. But He is also, as we speak, "saving" you, if you are in Christ. And He will "save" you, provided you endure til the end. If indeed Christ is the Good Shepard, then He leads your way. And when you stray, He will leave the pack to come get you back.
Quote
AMEN
Quote
However, the analogy is imperfect since we are not exactly like sheep; nor is our relationship to God exactly like a shepards relationship with actual sheep. We are also called "sons" and "daughters" of the Most High God. We are even called His "friends". And like human relationships, it's a two way street; although God will never leave nor forsake us.
Quote
Is not this amazing, inspite of ourselves, he will be there to guide us and correct as a friend not as an enemy
Quote
But Christ does not deal with each of us in the exact same way, nor judge us in the same manner, since we each have different experiences, situations and struggles to contend with. This is why the book of James say "Let not many of you become teachers since you know that we will be judged in a stricter manner".
Quote
Also in Hebrews 5:12. but read right on through to 6:6 we are forgiven and there is no further forgivenss to be provided, we are in a new covenant Hebreews 9: 15,16
Quote
And that is also why we are told to not judge our neighbors, nor ourselves (for that matter). Only God knows all things and can make a right judgment about our self and others. We ought neither to commend nor condemn ourselves before God, but be as faithful to our calling as we are able; always remembering (in our hearts) that we are chief among sinners; ever needing to plea for the mercy of God for deliverance from the captivities of the world, the flesh and the devil.
Quote
Ropmans 14, good chapter for this. Who are we to judge anothers servant. To his own master he stands or falls
Quote
And God is not unjust nor unsympathetic to our weaknesses (Hebrews 4:14-16). He knows we cannot live without Him; which is why the scripture says "without Me you can do nothing" and "man does not live on bread alone".
Quote
AMEN
Quote
Therefore, we must live in humbleness before God; not just because He is Lord, but because He came down from heaven and walked in meekness and humility Himself; being cared for, as a baby and child, by His human mother; washing the disciples feet; healing the sick and casting away demons; weeping over fallen Jerusalem; preaching in order to save fallen Israel; accepting the jealousies, scorn and contempt of human beings; beatings; and finally, death on a Cross.
God made every provision necessary so that we may live with Him; and live like Him.
Quote
AMEN
< Message edited by loveineffable -- 7/9/2008 12:18:35 AM >
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/9/2008 11:12:41 AM
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YahwehsAngel.Love
Posts: 12
Joined: 12/28/2006
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This is one of my favorite verses actually =]. I talk about it a lot at my Bible study.. It means that as believers we need to, everyday (or whenever necessary), re-examine if we are living out what we believe. In one of my bibles it says, "put into action God's saving work in your lives"
For example: Today is a wonderful day! You are reading God's word and praying often and you love every creature God has created. But when tomorrow comes, you've woken up late and are rushing around trying to get to work or school on time, which makes you cranky. And for some reason today it seems like every ones is giving you an attitude. When you find yourself giving it right back to them, this is when you need to re-examine what you believe.
Helpful I hope? =]
_____________________________
I am a hostage to my own humanity
Self detained and forced to live in this mess I’ve made
And all I’m asking is for You to do what You can with me
But I can’t ask You to give what You already gave
-Relient K
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/16/2008 1:54:04 AM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
When you sin, all you can do is recognize that the sin was so terrible that it requires death to propitiate God. And not even your death is good enough to obtain God's forgiveness. Thus, what you do is thank God that Jesus died for that sin (Romans 7:25). He is the only one that had a life to give that would satisfy God. When you accepted Christ as Savior, you also received the forgiveness purchased for you at the Cross (Ephesians 1:7). Therefore, when you sin, you don't ask for the forgiveness you already have, but rather you approach God in your time of need in order to find out where it was you weren't trusting God with an area of your life (Hebrews 4:16).
There are several problems with this theological thesis:
1) It makes the Christian life a "mental" phenomena, isolated from the "real" experiences of Christians who struggle.
2) It makes "salvation" nothing more than "feeling management" through cognitive recognition of "beliefs".
3) It is part and parcel of the schizo theology of Latin Christendom that continues to divorce the head (i.e. the mind) from the heart (i.e. man's conscience and spiritual center). Is it any wonder that "mental illness" has become such a phenomena in the West/westernized countries?
4) As a consequence, man/woman obtains new beliefs that have little power to help change his or her actual life. What's worse, these "beliefs" make it so it's not even necessary to change your life at all (i.e. repent)!!
5) Ultimately, this theological system makes it impossible to make any sense of the Bible because it assumes a single interpretation of the Gospel: the legal/juridical model.
6) There are many models of understanding God's relationship to man, other than the legal/juridical model: like the Therapeutic model (i.e. God as Great Physician, humanity as sick/suffering patients and the Church as the Hospital). This was the view of much of the early, Post-Apostolic writings of the Church Fathers. But it's also the view of scripture.
7) Because of the legal/juridical model, Latin Christians drive themselves nuts just trying to figure out if they really are "Christian" or not. That's based upon the observations made in my first 5 points, just listed above.
As my own experience in the Protestant faith has bore out, it nearly put an end to me. Nevertheless, God is merciful. If many of those who post their fears of salvation could only see the depths of darkness that I, myself, have plunged in; the sins that are too numerous to enumerate; the fears and the torments.....and see that God has not cast me away; then perhaps they might have some relief themselves and learn to be patient with God. Or more likely, learn to be patient with themselves: because God hasn't cast them away either!!
And maybe, by the grace of God, Psalm 51 will be the place where the Bible first starts to make sense.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/17/2008 1:22:32 AM
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GraceBro
Posts: 329
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic
There are several problems with this theological thesis:
1) It makes the Christian life a "mental" phenomena, isolated from the "real" experiences of Christians who struggle.
2) It makes "salvation" nothing more than "feeling management" through cognitive recognition of "beliefs".
3) It is part and parcel of the schizo theology of Latin Christendom that continues to divorce the head (i.e. the mind) from the heart (i.e. man's conscience and spiritual center). Is it any wonder that "mental illness" has become such a phenomena in the West/westernized countries?
4) As a consequence, man/woman obtains new beliefs that have little power to help change his or her actual life. What's worse, these "beliefs" make it so it's not even necessary to change your life at all (i.e. repent)!!
5) Ultimately, this theological system makes it impossible to make any sense of the Bible because it assumes a single interpretation of the Gospel: the legal/juridical model.
6) There are many models of understanding God's relationship to man, other than the legal/juridical model: like the Therapeutic model (i.e. God as Great Physician, humanity as sick/suffering patients and the Church as the Hospital). This was the view of much of the early, Post-Apostolic writings of the Church Fathers. But it's also the view of scripture.
7) Because of the legal/juridical model, Latin Christians drive themselves nuts just trying to figure out if they really are "Christian" or not. That's based upon the observations made in my first 5 points, just listed above.
"But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
Grace and Peace
_____________________________
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GraceRest/
www.livinggodministries.net
http://360.yahoo.com/idog96
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/17/2008 6:24:43 PM
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loveineffable
Posts: 90
Joined: 5/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic
quote:
When you sin, all you can do is recognize that the sin was so terrible that it requires death to propitiate God. And not even your death is good enough to obtain God's forgiveness. Thus, what you do is thank God that Jesus died for that sin (Romans 7:25). He is the only one that had a life to give that would satisfy God. When you accepted Christ as Savior, you also received the forgiveness purchased for you at the Cross (Ephesians 1:7). Therefore, when you sin, you don't ask for the forgiveness you already have, but rather you approach God in your time of need in order to find out where it was you weren't trusting God with an area of your life (Hebrews 4:16).
There are several problems with this theological thesis:
1) It makes the Christian life a "mental" phenomena, isolated from the "real" experiences of Christians who struggle.
2) It makes "salvation" nothing more than "feeling management" through cognitive recognition of "beliefs".
3) It is part and parcel of the schizo theology of Latin Christendom that continues to divorce the head (i.e. the mind) from the heart (i.e. man's conscience and spiritual center). Is it any wonder that "mental illness" has become such a phenomena in the West/westernized countries?
4) As a consequence, man/woman obtains new beliefs that have little power to help change his or her actual life. What's worse, these "beliefs" make it so it's not even necessary to change your life at all (i.e. repent)!!
5) Ultimately, this theological system makes it impossible to make any sense of the Bible because it assumes a single interpretation of the Gospel: the legal/juridical model.
6) There are many models of understanding God's relationship to man, other than the legal/juridical model: like the Therapeutic model (i.e. God as Great Physician, humanity as sick/suffering patients and the Church as the Hospital). This was the view of much of the early, Post-Apostolic writings of the Church Fathers. But it's also the view of scripture.
7) Because of the legal/juridical model, Latin Christians drive themselves nuts just trying to figure out if they really are "Christian" or not. That's based upon the observations made in my first 5 points, just listed above.
As my own experience in the Protestant faith has bore out, it nearly put an end to me. Nevertheless, God is merciful. If many of those who post their fears of salvation could only see the depths of darkness that I, myself, have plunged in; the sins that are too numerous to enumerate; the fears and the torments.....and see that God has not cast me away; then perhaps they might have some relief themselves and learn to be patient with God. Or more likely, learn to be patient with themselves: because God hasn't cast them away either!!
And maybe, by the grace of God, Psalm 51 will be the place where the Bible first starts to make sense.
Yes Psalm 51, good place, before the cross of Christ, where God took upon himself everyones sin, at the cross. Yet not all have received this one time act of total forgiveness. And until one does see this it is impossible to enter into his courts wtih thanksgiving and praise as David did when he saw in his vision the up coming savior at the cross, where his psalm 51 would be answered complete.
David was looking forward to the cross, they at the time of Christ saw it, and we are looking back at it. Yet we are trying to do it ourselves as them back before the cross as well as the ones there during it's time. under the law under a curse. Jesus even said it if your right hand causes one to sin cut it off better for part of you to go to heaven than all of you go to hell.
It is great to be zealous to do right. Saul was very zealous, but counted all his religion dung, leaving it behind to win Christ. We today are trying to obey the law that was only given to the jews in the first place and they could not complete it. But in trying they ended up beating themselves up over not be able to obey the law 100 percent. And so here we are doing the same except w/o blood sacrifice. No forgiveness w/ the shedding of blood, and was the last sacrifice, and last shedding of blood per scripture.
So God in the form of his Son came and through the cross of his Son shed mercy for all to receive upon their belief, total forgivenss, (not to take advantage of), but to appreciate that you will respond with thankfulness and love your neighbor in the same way God has, and does love you. Unconditionally
So instead of gettin forgiveness by forgiving: one forgives as the result of being forgiven. Like the parable about the king that forgave that man that owed too much to be able to pay. The king pardoned him, and when this man went out and saw someone that owed him, he went for this man to pay him. This man asked for mercy as the one he owed had already received, yet he did not give him mercy. So this man that had been given mercy, his mercy was revoked by the king.
So this thing about taking advantage of this unfathomable mercy is ludicrous to me. For I am thankful and this shows by the mercy given according to the mercy received.
ineffable love
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/17/2008 6:44:17 PM
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faroukfarouk
Posts: 839
Joined: 4/16/2008
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The New Testament speaks of 'the obedience of faith'. In Hebrews 11, Abraham 'by faith..obeyed'. That wasn't earning salvation by good works, but Ephesians 2.9 makes it clear that good works are the result of faith.
_____________________________
Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
(I'm a guy. Some tattoo designs look nice, though...but I haven't worn my earrings lately. So, think the lady in the avatar is my sister?)
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/24/2008 8:54:35 PM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/14/2008
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quote:
"But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
Amen.....but who is St. Paul speaking of here?
But St. Paul also speaks of those who read his epistle by "letter"; not by the Spirit (2 Cor. 3). And just as those Israelites read Moses as with a veil over their eyes so that they couldn't understand the faith aright, might that not also be true of us?
Perhaps the veil one chooses to look at the Scripture is the teaching magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. Or perhaps it's the humanistic lens of the Protestant Reformation, where autonomous individuals become the self-enlightened teaching magisterium of Christian doctrine.
Even the devil quotes scripture. I guess you might call that the "Satanic Teaching Magisterium". But this is neither here nor there.
On the other hand, God is no respecter of persons. Who am I to judge who is or is not a Christian? I'm never so confident to forget the admonition St. Paul gives in Romans 11:17-22.
Nevertheless, the fruit bore in the West is obvious: humanism, fractured relationships, mental illness, war, hedonism, selfishness, rampage killings, pornography in popular culture, incivility among leaders, social chaos, etc.
All of this would be inconsequential if it weren't for the fact that Evangelicals argue that the West, particularly the United States, is a "Christian" nation. It's not and never was.
The Lord Jesus Christ said: "My Kingdom is not of this world".
It's time that the so-called "Christians" start to wake up. This world is ruled by the "god of this age"; with all the philosophies, religions and principalities to keep many in the snare of his delusions (Rev. 20:7-10).
Therefore:
"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues'. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities"
(Rev. 18:4,5)
And though we all have been caught up in the world, God remains faithful and extends his mercy by calling us, the unfaithful ones, His "people".
Amen.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/26/2008 10:43:27 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
Jesus said that neither adulterers or fornicators ect. will enter heaven. Can a person still be considered a adulterer, or murder, if he lusts or hates after he is saved? Because if he still can be considered one, then that means that salvation is through works? That we have to not hate or any of that at all to get to heaven, which in turn is our effort towards salvation.
And if that's true, then that means that Jesus died to save us, so that we can in turn save ourslves????
Anyone care to clarify?
Yes because Jesus tells us that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Philippians 1:4 tells us, "...he who began a good work in you will carry it onto completion." So the indwelling Holy Spirit will lead us out of sin until we are blameless on our deathbed.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/26/2008 10:44:41 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
Jesus said that neither adulterers or fornicators ect. will enter heaven. Can a person still be considered a adulterer, or murder, if he lusts or hates after he is saved? Because if he still can be considered one, then that means that salvation is through works? That we have to not hate or any of that at all to get to heaven, which in turn is our effort towards salvation.
And if that's true, then that means that Jesus died to save us, so that we can in turn save ourslves????
Anyone care to clarify?
Yes we can still sin and be saved because Jesus tells us that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin so that it becomes unbearable to the believer to sin. So we can be confident that as Philippians 1:4 tells us, "...he who began a good work in you will carry it onto completion." So the indwelling Holy Spirit will lead us out of sin until we are blameless on our deathbed.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 7/26/2008 1:48:51 PM
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eschatologist
Posts: 58
Joined: 1/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
What about the verse that says that we should be perfect as our God is perfect?
God's idea of perfection is different than man's. Most people think that to be perfect you have to be perfectly obedient to a ceretain set of rules in a rulebook such as the law of Moses, and that you never make a mistake, never succumb to temptation, etc. In IJohn it tells us that God is Love. "He that loveth not knoweth not God because God is Love." Since God is perfect, then perfection is Love. Jesus said, " A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have Love one toward another. This is the new testament of His blood which replaced the old testament of the law of Moses. "Greater love hath no man than this that a man lay down His life for His friends." (Jesus)
"He that heareth my words and believeth on Him that sent me hath everlasting life and is not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life". (Jesus in John 5) Once you believe in and recieve Jesus you are automatically passed from death unto Life because Jesus washes away your sins. This Life is with you forever and will never leave you nor forsake you.
"He that doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. If ye know that He is righteous ye know that everyone that doeth righteousness is born of Him." IJohn) So what does the Apostle mean when he says that we have to "do righteousness"? If we do the will fo God we are doing righteousness, right? Jesus says in John 6: This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which He hath given me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting Life and I will raise Him up at the Last day." You have "done righteouness" and fulfilled the will of God once you recieved Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, and therefore you will "abide" (or live) forever. "He that doeth the will of God, abideth forever." (Ijohn 4)
"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; because His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin because he is born of God." This does not mean you are perfect in the sense of never making a mistake and always obeying the rules. But you cannot sin because Jesus washes away your sins forever. Therefore all Glory and Praise be to Jesus, not to ourselves.
"We know that we have passed from death unto Life because we love the brethren. He that loveth not His brother abideth in death."(IJohn 3:14) So, once you are saved, and born again, the one commandment the Lord expects us to live by is to Love one another. This proves that we are His disciples, this proves that we are true born again Christians whose sins are forgiven, this proves that we are saved and will live forever in Heaven (and on earth), this proves that we have fulfilled the will of God and will "abide forever": because we have Love one for another. This not only means going out of our way to help others and being nice to each other, etc. but it also means having a forgiving attitude towards others in their mistakes, sins and shortcomings, not a condemning, judgmental attitude, just as Jesus loved us, died for us and forgave our sins and washed them all away by His blood. "Forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven us." (The Apostle Paul)
If you live your Life in this manner, you will be perfect.
The Apostle Paul also wrote about this perfect Love: And above all these things put on Charity (Love one for another) which is the bond of perfectness." (Collossians 3:14) Read also ICorinthians 13 which basically tells us that even if we obey all the rules do everything right, even do all kinds of charity work but don't have Love one for another, then we are nothing and all our good works will come up as husks before the Lord.
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RE: Confusing verses. - 8/2/2008 3:03:06 PM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/14/2008
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"The perfection of the Christian life--and I mean that life which is the only one the name of Christ is used to designate--is that in which we participate not only by our mind and soul but in all the actions of our lives, so that our holiness may be complete, in accordance with the blessing pronounced by Paul, in our whole body and soul and spirit (1 Thess. 5:23), constantly guarded from all admixture with evil.
Now it may be objected that such a good is hard to achieve, seeing that only the Lord of creation is constant and that human nature is mutable and prone to change. How then is it possible to establish in our changeable nature this permanence and immutability in good? To this then we answer: there can be no crown unless the contest is fair, and the contest is fair only if there is an adversary to fight with. Thus, if there is no adversary, there is no crown. There is no victory unless there is conquest. Let us then struggle against this very mutability of our nature; coming to grips, as it were, with our adversary in spirit; and we become victors not by holding our adversary down but rather by not allowing him to fall. For man does not merely have an inclination to evil; were this so, it would be impossible for him to grow in good, if his nature possessed only an inclination towards the contrary. But in truth the finest aspect of our mutability is the possibility of growth in good; and this capacity for improvement transforms the soul, as it changes, more and more into the divine.
And so my discourse has shown that what appears so terrifying (I mean the mutability of our nature) can really be as a pinion in our flight towards higher things, and indeed it would be a hardship if we were not susceptible of the sort of change which is towards the better. One ought not then to be distressed when one considers this tendency in our nature; rather let us change in such a way that we may constantly evolve towards what is better, being transformed from glory to glory (2 Cor. 3:18), and thus always improving and ever becoming more perfect by daily growth, and never arriving at any limit of perfection. For that perfection consists in our never stopping in our growth in good, never circumscribing our perfection by any limitation."
St. Gregory of Nyssa (c. 330-395 A.D.) "On Perfection"
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RE: Confusing verses. - 8/14/2008 1:03:16 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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Dear Cognitive,
You almost persuadist me to become Orthodox.  Actually, I have moved on from Protestantism and have prayed to the blessed Triune God that He lead me to where the Apostolic teaching is most preserved.
I recognize that there are weaknesses in all faith traditions because humans are involved. However, my soul longs for worship and doctrine that lifts the heart soaring toward heavenly heights. God has been doing a work within my heart, one that has been humbling and teaching me to "count others better than myself."
What I mean to say is that He is taking the dross from the silver to make a vessal for His use. Such a process forces one to look in the mirror, but also finds hope in the law of liberty in Christ Jesus. The self-righteousness and judgmental attitude toward Christians of all persuasions and even toward those living in sin is slowly melting away. Christ through the precious Holy Spirit is teaching me to relinquish self and allow self to be immersed in Him. Thus, He is molding me and shaping me in His image. Thus, I will become a light in the darkness of this world, not merely through my words, but through my everyday actions and deeds.
Through the eyes of the Spirit, there is no confusion, only clarity. It can be likened to a mirror that has steamed up when one has taken a shower. Slowly, as the condensation disappears, one can see the image on the other side. And so it is that Christ has been clarifying spiritual realities for me that were once confusing.
Working out our salvation with fear and trembling is necessarily connected to the following verse, which reassures us that our God is at work within us to accomplish His purposes. And what is the greatest of these purposes but to do everything from an undying love for our Lord Jesus Christ which spills in an over-flowing love for our neighbor?
May God bless each one of you this day, and may the Holy Spirit lead you on to heights of glory, filling you with joy unspeakable.
Heavendweller
_____________________________
See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: Confusing verses. - 8/14/2008 2:19:23 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2807
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whatislove
What did Jesus mean when he said to work out our salvation with trembling and fear?
Jesus said that neither adulterers or fornicators ect. will enter heaven. Can a person still be considered a adulterer, or murder, if he lusts or hates after he is saved? Because if he still can be considered one, then that means that salvation is through works? That we have to not hate or any of that at all to get to heaven, which in turn is our effort towards salvation.
And if that's true, then that means that Jesus died to save us, so that we can in turn save ourslves????
Anyone care to clarify?
I think Tim might be the closest to the mark here. First, I think it's important to look at the overall theme in Phillipans 2. Paul is saying that Christ humbled himself and made himself nothing in order to accomplish the Father's redemptive purposes in us. The word "therefore" in v.12 is oddly important here - therefore we have a certain responsibility.
What is that? I think the answer is in the greek word he chose, translated here as "work out". The idea is that of committing to a purpose, fully dedicating yourself to a purpose, to bring something about. It carries the idea of bringing something to completion. In other words, God has started a work in us. It's our responsibility to see it to completion and dedicate ourselves to that end. It's important to note that within this passage, Paul is pointing to a great paradox, for as he says, it is not me that does this but Christ in me.
The focus here doesn't seem to be on the end result, but on the progress being made. Paul uses a verb tense (aorist/imperative) that doesn't have a direct corollary to English. My resources indicate that this tense/mood would be indicative of something that's outside of, unrestricted by time. It's a command that we are supposed to follow most diligent from moment to moment without stopping to contemplate whether or not we've actually arrived at completion. It's a job that's never complete.
All in all, I think the verse seeks to capture a couple of utter paradoxes. We are commanded to work out our salvation, but then told we ourselves are powerless to do so. It is God's responsibility to do that in us. We are commanded to pursue a goal, but told (implicitly via the verb tense used) that that goal is never fully reached - we must always continue to "work out" our faith assuming always that there's more to be done.
Edit to add:
I think this particular passage is the key to reconciling Paul's salvation by faith with James' statement that faith without works is dead. On the one hand, I am commanded to good works and the working out of my salvation, and on the other it is acknowledged that I'm incapable of doing this on my own. The only thing I can do is to the best of my ability, in each moment of my life and minute by minute, do the best I can to make Godly choices in my behavior.
Take that step, and then trust that God will carry me the rest of the way. In that sense, one's progress toward Him is the important thing. One isn't perfected overnight. Salvation doesn't immediately deliver us from all temptation. If that were true, Paul wouldn't have used the words he did, unbounded by time. It's a continual struggle toward a goal that is always moving ever upward. Our progress toward that goal then is the critical measure, not how far we've come or how far we have yet to go.
< Message edited by GroupW -- 8/14/2008 2:29:51 PM >
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Confusing verses. - 8/22/2008 2:05:56 AM
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cognitivemagic
Posts: 208
Joined: 1/14/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Dear Cognitive,
You almost persuadist me to become Orthodox. Actually, I have moved on from Protestantism and have prayed to the blessed Triune God that He lead me to where the Apostolic teaching is most preserved.
Hehe...well, Heavendweller, I hope that the writings and prayers of the Church Fathers will persuade you....they are much more reliable, theologically and spiritually, than I am. If it weren't for my patron saints' prayers, St. Gregory of Nyssa, I'm not sure I could have become Orthodox.
But I understand your "hunger" for deeper spirituality and life....that is, in great measure, what was weighing on me to become Orthodox; but it took me 4 years of struggle to finally commit myself to it. I still struggle....my life was, and is, a shamble and a mess. However, I came because I don't think I could get "well" anywhere else. Orthodoxy became a way to begin to evaluate my life as "soberly" as possible, given my wayward and skeptical years of young adulthood; and to provide accountability and encouragement on my spiritual path.
But I recommend two books that may be of interest to you:
1) "The Orthodox Church" by Timothy (Kallistos) Ware
2) "For the Life of the World" by Alexander Schmemman.
And, of course, the Church Fathers are available online here: Schaff's Edition of the Church Fathers
Talking to a priest is recommended, since he can begin to address specific issues that you may have...and give some fatherly guidance.
Many blessings!!
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