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tapestry -> how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 12:13:08 PM)

I have recently made a new friend. We have fun together as well as work at the same place. She is a wonderful lady with 4 almost grown kids.
She is also into that new religion that Oprah is pushing ("The Secret" by Rhonda Brynes is the main book for that one) How do I go about witnessing to her when she is so excited about this books teachings? She believes the universe is in place just for her and that if she is positive enough she will get what ever she wants. The book also teaches that a person is actually god and is in control of what happens to them.
How do I go about talking to her about the love of God? I already tried once and she informed me that she does not want to talk about religion as that starts fights.



Little_1 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 2:26:49 PM)

I once heard someone say the following - or something similar (not sure who it was)

quote:

We may be the only epistle that someone may read


If she won't listen - let her watch as you live the Christian life in front of her and may she realise that what you have is faith and not religion.

Pray that the eyes of her understanding may be opened so that you may be given an opportunity to share the Gospel.



Liveloved -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 2:50:31 PM)

quote:

she does not want to talk about religion as that starts fights.


This is one of the most interesting things to me. When we talk about our Jesus, it's religion. But when others talk about what they worship, whether this Oprah thing or sports or whatever, it is not 'religion' and OK. Huh????????????

Don't talk religion. Don't talk about what you do and don't believe.

Live the reality of Jesus before her and to her. Love her as Jesus loves her. Keep your mouth shut unless He gives you the right words and opportunities.

I truly believe that we can spend alot of time turning people off to Jesus by all the talk. Be her friend. Enjoy her. Love her. And pray for her. And ask God to make something happen so she is open to His gospel.

Bless you for being her friend. Love her into the kingdom, tapestry![:)]



blue1914 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 3:08:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tapestry

How do I go about talking to her about the love of God? I already tried once and she informed me that she does not want to talk about religion as that starts fights.


I guess my question here is what did you do when you started speaking with her-especially given that she was more than happy to share the Oprah stuff with you, it seems a little odd that she doesn't feel comfortable having a spiritual discussion.

On the other hand, I've just got to admit it-as Christians, we sometimes have the issue of trying to "enlighten" people who feel that they are enlightened already (there is way that seems right to a man, etc. etc.).

I'd bet that the two of you got on the Oprah discussion by discussing things in her life that related to it-not a "religion" discussion per se, just talking about stuff that was important to you both and she felt the need to share how Oprah and Mr. Tolle were helping her. If that was the case, you might do the exact same thing.

One problem that I often see in Christians is that we try to run "hot or cold"-in other words, if a conversation isn't all about God all the time, we aren't "witnessing". The only problem with this line of thought is that 90% of the time, we are talking to people about things other than God. The big secret here-the two do NOT have to mutually exclusive.

You don't have to get up each morning looking for ways to talk to this woman about God-instead, just do what she did-talk about what comes naturally and how God is working in the situation.

A for instance-you have a friend who is sick. You mention to your new friend that you are praying for this friend-no one can really say much about that-it's not an intrusive statement, it's not bashing anyone's religion, etc. Your new friend will really only be able to "accept" the statmeent even if she doesn't respond. In time, you may come back and mention "oh, that friend that I prayed for was healed..."(if it's true of course) and leave the statement to stand on it's own. Natural human curiosity will cause her to want to know more about the friend and you will be able to weave spirituality into that discussion-telling about how God has healed others in your life, how prayer works in your life, how your faith is a part of your life. You will be discussing "religion" without even thinking about it-mainly because your new friend will be asking all of the questions! As you do more of that - and listen to her own stories of a similar nature - she will start to see the pattern that develops herself and start to ask you more and more about what YOU have. I've seen it happen-but it's not a QUICK process. You may know this person for a year or more before you see any real fruit. Pray MUCH and ensure that the Holy Spirit is directing all that you do-you'll need it!



pstrdebi -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 5:28:50 PM)

I agree with the others...

"The prayers of the righteous availeth much..."

Be a quiet example. When something goes wrong in your life.... let her see that your faith is in God. And then when things turn around... share with her how God answered.

Just as you are zealous for God... she is zealous for something else. When someone has their head in the clouds, it is hard for them to see whats really going on around them.

And remember... God may have chosen someone else to water the seed that you are planting.[:)]
(that one is hard sometimes in our microwave generation!)

Blessings...
Pastor Debi
[;)]



Walker311 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 6:01:19 PM)

I'm disagreeing with some of the previous posters and those to come because I am coming to realize that "we're the only Jesus some will ever see" is no longer a valid stance with much of what is going on in the modern world.

We are seeing a multitude of TV/mega church so-called preachers preaching a watered down gospel and prosperity teachings laced with scripture. Some are changing their views and preaching that there is no hell. "Gay bishops" and "gay Christians" are new terms that proclaims that sinful living can embrace Christianity too.

I was filling my car with golden gas this morning while another customer had his stereo blasting a rap song laced with extremely vulgar language. If he didn't look like he would blow me away, I would have told him that he did not need to gain acceptance from the world but from God almighty and that Jesus could give Him much more than what the world could offer.

I'm soooo tired of hearing God and Jesus' name used as a swear word in real life and on tv channels that used to beep it out.

Living IT out before the world does make a difference but folks are becoming so hardened to Christianity that in some situations we need to be Christian shock jocks... but never do this without the leading of the Holy Spirit.

I can't save the world but I see the world around me needing something more than a Christian weakling.

My 2 cents!



mvic -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 7:10:44 PM)

Walker311,

Your 2 cents is worth a lot around here. What you say touches on the same subject covered in my other posts/threads. Do we witness by speaking out and telling people, or do we "live" our Christianity and let others learn from our examples.

I'm of the opinion that there's room for both - with perhaps the main vehicle of witness being "living" one's Christianity.

You're right that we shouldn't speak out "without the leading of the Holy Spirit". The problem is that many Christians I know (hence my other threads) can't tell when they're led by the Spirit and when not. As a result they become "Christian chatter-boxes", speaking out all the time and thus doing more harm than good.



Walker311 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 7:31:38 PM)

quote:

I'm of the opinion that there's room for both - with perhaps the main vehicle of witness being "living" one's Christianity.


Agreed! The loose cannon Christians who do not have the good sense to shut their mouths make it extremely difficult to reach those spoiled by their rattling on. Better to be a quiet witness than noisy empty cans that may get noticed but need spiritual recycling.

My post was inspired by general frustration and gas prices and the latter being a great excuse to use for all occasions. [8D]



mvic -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 7:48:51 PM)

Don't remind me about gas prices. I've just filled the car and it cost £1.11 per litre.

Can someone work this out in $.

Whatever it is - it's too much. Why can't I fill up the car with tea? We've plenty of that in the UK and it's relatively cheap.



tapestry -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 8:25:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Don't remind me about gas prices. I've just filled the car and it cost £1.11 per litre.

Can someone work this out in $.

Whatever it is - it's too much. Why can't I fill up the car with tea? We've plenty of that in the UK and it's relatively cheap.

yikes! That is $2.18 a liter in Canadian dollars. Right now it is $1.29 a liters where I live and people here are complaining lots about it. I no longer have a car, use public transit instead and rent when I really need to go out of town.



tapestry -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 8:26:46 PM)

Thank you all for your replys. I will pray about it all and really seek the Lord on what to do and say.

It is great to have a forum like this to go on and pick the brains of other Christians!



Walker311 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/11/2008 8:49:05 PM)

quote:

Don't remind me about gas prices. I've just filled the car and it cost £1.11 per litre.


3.78 litres to a U.S. gallon that works out at £4.19 or $8.13 U.S.

You have my pity and I'll stop whining now. I really cannot imagine $8 for a gallon here... there would be major repercussions.

Back to topic!

I know that I am more of a silent witness but I desire more boldness not for a pat on the back but because the world is not silent in it's beliefs. Those who live for the devil are in your face... and could not discern a Christian from an unbeliever even you hit them with a 20 pound bible up side their heads. They are spiritually dead!



SonInMe1 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/12/2008 8:11:33 AM)

quote:

Do we witness by speaking out and telling people, or do we "live" our Christianity and let others learn from our examples.


I think the answer is both and how to discern when one will work and another won't is pretty simple as well

It must always be led by the Holy Spirit.

If you have an investment into this person, not only will you know which form of a witness to use...you will know whne too. God is pretty good at setting up the witness enviroment.

Be ready. Pray for opportunities. Know that they might not fall down on their knees and accept Jesus right then and there. Sometimes we just plant the seeds. It might be that others give them water. Still others the fertilizer.



blue1914 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/12/2008 10:42:00 AM)

I ask for opinions on this one-is there ever a place for "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks?" and here's what I mean.

There have been a few comments about different forms of expression-the loud rap song with profanity, etc. etc. The reason those "artists" make those types of songs are because it is the language they use in everyday speech-out of the "abundance" of their heart, their mouth speaks-they are doing what comes naturally.

Is it (or should it be) the same way with believers? If we are filled with the goodness of God, wouldn't that fact alone from time to time cause us to bubble over a little? Does that not become a witness?

Is it always necessary to give a 3 point sermon on how Jesus saves-is it sometimes true that a "word in season" can be just as effective-and without trying? I think of a few situations that I recently had-they turned into "witness" opportunities without even trying-so to speak. Lately I've been walking around with a Bible a lot more frequently than in the past and I've been riding the bus. Almost daily, I get someone who will ask me about the Bible or another religious book that I might be carrying. Of course since they are asking about the Bible, that opens the door and we can talk about things of faith, but I generally find that they may have what I might believe to be a misunderstanding about the Word of God. While the "bible basher" inside of me is rarin' to get after them, I find more often than not we can discuss our points of agreement (because regardless of how far out there you think someone is, you have some points of agreement if they claim the name of Christ at all) and at some ponts in the conversation, I can "insert" what I was just reading in the Word that explains what I understand about the word of God. In some cases it turns into a "iron sharpens iron" thing because they may bring a perspective that I hadn't thought of before.

The same thing is true in my regular conversations-at times when speaking with somone, I can insert a truth of the Word that I applies universally to what we are discussing-just the same way I might quote Winston Churchill, etc. I just quote the Word of God instead.

For these types of encounters, is it possible that instead of trying to "witness" each time, am I instead speaking out of the abundance of my heart?



mvic -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/12/2008 10:58:15 AM)

Walker311,

Agreed, there are plenty who are "spiritually dead" as you say. I think that's their prerogative.

What I find hurtful is those who go out of their way to undermine Christianity: for example a University Professor in the UK has linked belief in God with lack of intelligence. (See separate thread IQ and atheism under General Faith).



davemiller7 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/12/2008 1:15:05 PM)

My best advice is to let the Holy Spirit guide you and your words. Sometimes a full sermon is necessary and appropriate, while at other times it will turn away the other party. Many times just a "word in season," as you put it, will work wonders and begin a dialogue. Actions, which are the very best way, are often overlooked or mistaken for some other reason.

Carrying the Bible often is a great conversation starter. You just need to pray for guidance and the right words to come out.

Blessings,
-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: blue1914

I ask for opinions on this one-is there ever a place for "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks?" and here's what I mean.

There have been a few comments about different forms of expression-the loud rap song with profanity, etc. etc. The reason those "artists" make those types of songs are because it is the language they use in everyday speech-out of the "abundance" of their heart, their mouth speaks-they are doing what comes naturally.

Is it (or should it be) the same way with believers? If we are filled with the goodness of God, wouldn't that fact alone from time to time cause us to bubble over a little? Does that not become a witness?

Is it always necessary to give a 3 point sermon on how Jesus saves-is it sometimes true that a "word in season" can be just as effective-and without trying? I think of a few situations that I recently had-they turned into "witness" opportunities without even trying-so to speak. Lately I've been walking around with a Bible a lot more frequently than in the past and I've been riding the bus. Almost daily, I get someone who will ask me about the Bible or another religious book that I might be carrying. Of course since they are asking about the Bible, that opens the door and we can talk about things of faith, but I generally find that they may have what I might believe to be a misunderstanding about the Word of God. While the "bible basher" inside of me is rarin' to get after them, I find more often than not we can discuss our points of agreement (because regardless of how far out there you think someone is, you have some points of agreement if they claim the name of Christ at all) and at some ponts in the conversation, I can "insert" what I was just reading in the Word that explains what I understand about the word of God. In some cases it turns into a "iron sharpens iron" thing because they may bring a perspective that I hadn't thought of before.

The same thing is true in my regular conversations-at times when speaking with somone, I can insert a truth of the Word that I applies universally to what we are discussing-just the same way I might quote Winston Churchill, etc. I just quote the Word of God instead.

For these types of encounters, is it possible that instead of trying to "witness" each time, am I instead speaking out of the abundance of my heart?



Little_1 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/12/2008 1:45:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

...... Do we witness by speaking out and telling people, or do we "live" our Christianity and let others learn from our examples.

I'm of the opinion that there's room for both - with perhaps the main vehicle of witness being "living" one's Christianity.......

...... we shouldn't speak out "without the leading of the Holy Spirit". The problem is that many Christians I know (hence my other threads) can tell when they're led by the Spirit and when not. As a result they become "Christian chatter-boxes", speaking out all the time and thus doing more harm than good.


I agree - the Word without the Spirit is dead. There is more harm done speaking spritually 'dead' words than not speaking at all! Wisdom is required so that we know when to speak and when to remain silent. However, it is not easy when someone is spiritually closed up and does not want to listen to the Gospel message and therefore, perserverance in prayer and persistence in witnessing (in the sense of living our lives as Christ requires day-to-day before the non believer/s) is a must; then if/when God gives an opening to speak - YES - I DEFINATELY AGREE WE SHOULD TAKE IT WITHOUT A DOUBT but we should never try to do the work of the Holy Spirit ourselves and try to force the Gospel on a closed heart which I'm sure we are all agreed on. Patience is vital when dealing with non Christians. We should also be aware that not all will come to Christ for salvation! We do our part in obedience to the Lord and we have to accept that we must leave the results with Him.



pstrdebi -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/12/2008 7:03:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

quote:

Do we witness by speaking out and telling people, or do we "live" our Christianity and let others learn from our examples.


I think the answer is both and how to discern when one will work and another won't is pretty simple as well
It must always be led by the Holy Spirit.

If you have an investment into this person, not only will you know which form of a witness to use...you will know whne too. God is pretty good at setting up the witness environment.

Be ready. Pray for opportunities. Know that they might not fall down on their knees and accept Jesus right then and there. Sometimes we just plant the seeds. It might be that others give them water. Still others the fertilizer.


Something Tapestry said, was that this person was already unresponsive... she told her that talking about religion always leads to arguments. This makes me think that this person has already been in arguments over "religion."

This makes me think that the quiet witness method may be more productive. Not sure... since we don't know this person.

But it also makes me think of Matthew 7:6...
"Do not give what is oly to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample then under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."

And what about Matthew 10:12-14...
"And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from tht house or city, shake off the dust from your feet."

These are Jesus Words... in the second verse, when he tells them to "... let your peace return to you...." He is telling them that if the household doesn't want to receive the Word, they were to remove their pronouncement of blessing from that household.

Just a little wood to fuel the fire.
[8|]



davemiller7 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/13/2008 10:26:44 AM)

OK, Pastor Debi, now you've got my curiousity up. How should we "remove our pronouncement of blessing" from a household? Should we proclaim aloud to the household that we are doing that, or should we quickly and quietly beat a retreat and proclaim that to God privately? My inclination is to do the latter, leaving the open possibility of a future blessing.

-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

These are Jesus Words... in the second verse, when he tells them to "... let your peace return to you...." He is telling them that if the household doesn't want to receive the Word, they were to remove their pronouncement of blessing from that household.

Just a little wood to fuel the fire.
[8|]



pstrdebi -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/13/2008 2:01:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davemiller7

OK, Pastor Debi, now you've got my curiousity up. How should we "remove our pronouncement of blessing" from a household? Should we proclaim aloud to the household that we are doing that, or should we quickly and quietly beat a retreat and proclaim that to God privately? My inclination is to do the latter, leaving the open possibility of a future blessing.

-Dave


Well Dave...

I do not find any absolute 'further' directions regarding this... however, I would also be inclined to follow the latter.

The opposite of a blessing is a curse... and if we were to stand proclaiming aloud that we are "removing your blessing"... I dare say that we would be called an awful lot of names and the rumors would fly!

Jewish people of that time viewed their greetings as "wish-prayers"... Shalom or "peace," meant "May it be well with you." the same as a curse undeserved will not take effect (Prov 26:2), Jesus is declaring that the disciples' blessings will be efficacious only if they are aproved, meaning that the people have received the message. In light of this... I would say... quietly.

Going back to that "silent witness" thing... my husband always quotes St. Francis of Asisi... "Preach the Gospel at all times, and if nescesary, use words."

God bless...
Pastor Debi
[;)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/13/2008 7:52:42 PM)

Its why I seldom talk about religion. Witnessing isn't about the church you go to or its doctrine. Its about life choices and Who Jesus is in your life, seen by others despite your faults and imperfections.

Its just about loving other people and being respectful.

There have been a few talks about religion at work...its something that comes up once in a while and most...if not all...unsaved people have had some experience with religion.

I have found their perceptions of what a christian truly is to be 100% faulty.

Why not show them the difference? If you do, believe me, they will be curious.

If you hit them over the head with christianese.....rules.....sin.....they won't listen. ( Now that kinda excludes the "street preacher" thing and there is a place for that but as far as my experience has been, the street preacher thing doesn't work very well one on one )

I guess why more christians do not witness is because its usually a process over time that includes a fairly big commitment of time and even resources....with possibly low results.

I would like though, if someone has a very effective witness, how they accomplish that. Someone who has led many to the Lord and how they did that. Was it individual to the person? Do they have a formula that works most of the time?

Some say its easier for a pastor to witness because..well people know them to be pastors and kinda either respect that or expect that from them. Is that true? Or is it harder to get closer to people because as a pastor, you are kinda...revered in a way and that makes closer relationships harder?

All I know is that a holier than thou position will usually seperate you from people. If we can live in integrity and be holy...and this to me is key, be humble in integrity....that is a good witness.

Just proclaiming Jesus with every other statement to me, does not look humble. I am not saying to deny Christ before men....no, no, no. I am saying your life speaks louder than your words.

Unsaved people hear others talk all the time. They know a liar. They even expect it. Believe me, living outside of the world's morals will shine a light on you

They will also wait for the bad moment to tear you down. Another reason why people don't witness often. It makes you a target. The symbol for christianity shouldn't be the Roman torture device, the cross.

It should be crosshairs. Every action you do is seen.

What are they seeing?



blue1914 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/14/2008 9:21:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1


I guess why more christians do not witness is because its usually a process over time that includes a fairly big commitment of time and even resources....with possibly low results.


I couldn't let this one go by because it is so TRUE-witnessing does take time, committment, resources, outward focus, courage and faithfulness-all for something that not only might yield little to no result but might even cause problems in other relationships in your life.

I have that situation now-I've been witnessing to somone for over a year and it seems they are no closer to salvation than when they started-I know that I should be witnessing to them, I have prayed for them (and received confirmation that I'm doing the right thing) and I have invested a LOT of time and resources into this person. I have very little return and in fact, from time to time I feel very taken advantage of-I'm there right now to be very honest and I've had to pray about it. So many people in my life have "congratulated" me on the time I take with this person-and I wonder to myself, haven't you ever received a conviction to do the same instead of clapping from the sidelines?

So many times we will say that-"I haven't received a calling for that" etc. etc. I didn't receive a particular spiritual "call" to this guy, he just walked up to me one day and asked me for a very big favor (one that I would not normally give to a complete stranger). By stepping out of my "comfort zone" and granting that favor, the door was opened-but it COST me something.

I guess I wonder if we as American Christians in particular feel that there will be no cost to following the will of God-oh sure, we always SAY there is a cost and that we are ready to pay it, but I wonder if we really mean that?



davemiller7 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/14/2008 4:04:31 PM)

Thanx, Pastor Debi, nice to know my thinking is (at least in this case) in the right direction.

In Christ,
-Dave

quote:

ORIGINAL: pstrdebi

quote:

ORIGINAL: davemiller7

OK, Pastor Debi, now you've got my curiousity up. How should we "remove our pronouncement of blessing" from a household? Should we proclaim aloud to the household that we are doing that, or should we quickly and quietly beat a retreat and proclaim that to God privately? My inclination is to do the latter, leaving the open possibility of a future blessing.

-Dave


Well Dave...

I do not find any absolute 'further' directions regarding this... however, I would also be inclined to follow the latter.

The opposite of a blessing is a curse... and if we were to stand proclaiming aloud that we are "removing your blessing"... I dare say that we would be called an awful lot of names and the rumors would fly!

Jewish people of that time viewed their greetings as "wish-prayers"... Shalom or "peace," meant "May it be well with you." the same as a curse undeserved will not take effect (Prov 26:2), Jesus is declaring that the disciples' blessings will be efficacious only if they are aproved, meaning that the people have received the message. In light of this... I would say... quietly.

Going back to that "silent witness" thing... my husband always quotes St. Francis of Asisi... "Preach the Gospel at all times, and if nescesary, use words."

God bless...
Pastor Debi
[;)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: how do I witness to... (6/15/2008 3:34:26 AM)

quote:

witnessing does take time, committment, resources, outward focus, courage and faithfulness-all for something that not only might yield little to no result but might even cause problems in other relationships in your life.


My dad was saved at 67.

When I was saved I was on fire for the Lord, so to speak and I talked to him about Jesus, as we were taught to do in my first church. He respectfully rebuked me. I didn't know how to proceed from there.

A couple years later when my dad accepted Jesus as His Lord, my mom told me one reason why he did was seeing the change Jesus made in my life. I guess the best way to describe those changes was another thing my mom told me after I got saved....that none of her friends thought I could be.

That year I had the privaledge of helping my dad's pastor baptise him. I can't tell you how great that day was. My mom's..and now dad's...church is small filled with people who had known my dad all of his life and during the service they stood up and told how my dad had affected their lives and how glad they were to call him brother.

Its the second time in my life I saw my dad cry.

It was a big day, that took years to come and it was well....worth it. I can't even type this without tearing up.

Good stuff.



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