RE: Fake Homeschoolers (Full Version)

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cynthia -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 1:29:04 AM)

Please pray for this family. Please pray for me. I am beginning to think that perhaps I really ought to find out exactly where these people are and to call CPS. I don't know what else to do. I think she is being robbed of a decent life. I think her parents are neglectful and abusive to treat her this way and that something needs to be done. They seriously need help, but I don't think they are going to get any real help, whether I call CPS or not, but it may give Alice a chance at a real life if I do.



cindybode -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 1:59:51 AM)

Cynthia, I truly do understand your concerns about CPS - I share most of them - but I honestly think that any attempt to get some decent help for this girl is going to end up with them being involved. If she goes to a counselor / teen hotline / runaway shelter, the workers there are obligated to report abuse or neglect. You may not personally do the reporting, but it will get reported nonetheless.

If she has a family member in the hospital, and the hospital has a social worker who's on the ball, it's possible that it's already a done deal. Nursing staff will alert social workers if they have concerns about how the family interacts - and believe me, the mom's true colors will be shining brightly no matter how she tries to play nice in front of the staff. Of course, if the staff's overworked and the social workers aren't the brightest bulbs in the box, it might get overlooked. There's no way of knowing for sure.

If it were me, and I'd tried as you have to get through to this mom, I'd report it. It sounds like it's the only way of getting this girl into a better situation.



Sunnymom -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 7:06:48 AM)

Has TL talked to Alice about what she would want if she had her druthers? Because she has younger siblings she is essentially mothering, she might not want to leave. If she really wants things to change, or wishes to be completely out of the situation, there might be ways to orchestrate it without involving CPS.

My dh and I have taken in teens before, and the problem is that while they are still considered minors, they can really tear things up by playing both ends against the middle unless they are truly committed to bettering their lives and getting help for their family. Most kids can't take on this kind of burden.



amybreit -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 8:32:59 AM)

Cynthia - I wish I had some great advice. My heart breaks for this girl! I'm glad she has a friend like your daughter to confide in. I'm praying for Alice, her parents & siblings & for you & TL for wisdom in what to do.



cynthia -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 10:10:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunnymom

Has TL talked to Alice about what she would want if she had her druthers? Because she has younger siblings she is essentially mothering, she might not want to leave. If she really wants things to change, or wishes to be completely out of the situation, there might be ways to orchestrate it without involving CPS.

My dh and I have taken in teens before, and the problem is that while they are still considered minors, they can really tear things up by playing both ends against the middle unless they are truly committed to bettering their lives and getting help for their family. Most kids can't take on this kind of burden.

My daughter has not encouraged the girl to think about leaving or to think of a way to get help. She does not want to encourage the girl to go against her parents in any way or to be disrespectful. I'm sure you're right about her feeling responsible for her younger siblings.

Cindy, This family has had children in the hospital before. The mother has interacted with school personnel with her LD kids. She has had lots of interaction with people who are mandatory reporters. I don't think she's ever been turned in.



ezri -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 10:14:36 AM)

quote:

Because she has younger siblings she is essentially mothering, she might not want to leave.


Agrees- and if this is the case then it may (sorry to be the wet blanket) cause more trauma than staying. it is a horrible situation for them all but to be ripped apart and farmed out to 3 or 4 different foster homes would probably tear her heart out and cause emotional & mental issues. Believe me, I live with the worry in the back of my mind RE: a mothering teen and my lil ones that are adopted.

You are all in my prayers for sure- it is a hard thing.

~e



judii1 -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 12:24:08 PM)

quote:

Oy. Why did I start this thread? Maybe it's me that's nutty. As you are all asking questions and making suggestions, it's all coming together. The mother is extremely controlling.


What if you asked the mother if TL and the girl could homeschool together at your house? Maybe you could mention that you have enough curriculum for both of them!Maybe you could ask her in a way that seems like your Dd wants to spend time with the girl? Am I making sense?
There has to be a way to be a friend to the mom and the girl, maybe????



cynthia -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 12:32:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: judii1

quote:

Oy. Why did I start this thread? Maybe it's me that's nutty. As you are all asking questions and making suggestions, it's all coming together. The mother is extremely controlling.


What if you asked the mother if TL and the girl could homeschool together at your house? Maybe you could mention that you have enough curriculum for both of them!Maybe you could ask her in a way that seems like your Dd wants to spend time with the girl? Am I making sense?
There has to be a way to be a friend to the mom and the girl, maybe????

They live 2000 miles away from us. Even if they lived in town, the mother doesn't want to be my friend. I don't think she likes me. I seem to make her uncomfotable.



shadowspring -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 1:51:01 PM)

I think that fear of change can paralyze teens in abusive situations. Sort of, 'better the devil you know than the devil you don't know"- old country saying from my youth. I now as kid from a bad situation my greatest fear was being removed from the home, which is ironic considering it would be hard to find a worse situation than I was in. Maybe it's because kids from abusive homes learn not to expect good?

But there are a lot of "what ifs" that we aren't mentioning:

What if the kids get placed in Christian foster homes? I know more than one godly Christian family giving foster care. It does happen.

What if things get better with CPS involved? Honestly, they are very loathe to take really needy children out of the home, as the likelihood that they can be successfully placed elsewhere is close to nil. More likely is the scenario where social workers do little to nothing, in which case no harm no foul calling CPS, and the teen now knows someone out there thinks she deserves better in life.

What if CPS insists on public school enrollment, and start working on IEPs with all the kids to help them get the help they need? This seems the most likely of scenarios, as public service people are trained to work other government services to try to solve problems. There are many righteous people in the public schools who truly care about young people. And these kids need someone outside the home looking out for them!

I don't see how calling CPS can go wrong. It sounds to me like these children need someone in the world to stand up and say, "This is not right" Just hearing that message will help them tremendously later on in life, even if nothing much comes of it.

Cynthia, you are a woman of the Word. I know you seek God on a daily basis. If your heart is telling you to call, I think you should throw aside your fears and call. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.

Only you can ultimately answer this question, but remember that what God says doesn't always make sense. It makes no sense to put a baby in a basket and send it down the crocodile-infested Nile River to safety, but it was God's plan and so it all worked out.

I will pray for you to discern what it is the Lord would lead you to do. I believe you will hear loud and clear at just the right time, and be able to proceed with confidence, whatever the Lord leads.



allisonbrett -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 3:26:51 PM)

I just hate to hear about fake homeschoolers. (nice term, cynthia!)

I work so hard at homeschooling my child and hate to think of those that abuse the freedom to teach our children without the government interferring. I know a family (in my husband's family) that also plays at homeschooling and has robbed their children of a good education. I've never known what to do either.

All I can say is just pray that the Holy Spirit gives you a clear direction to take. I'm also praying the same for this other family. My only concern over reporting this to a state agency is that I would hate to think that someone at the state level will assume that too many children are being neglected through hsing and try to legislate more gov't involvement and take away our freedom. I would suspect that by reporting the educational neglect CPS will mandate that this mom place all her children in public schools to insure that they children to get a more formal education.

What about calling the school board in the city/county they live in? I wonder if they would get involved to help this family or if you would need to go through CPS? [8|]



cynthia -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 3:37:28 PM)

It is one thing to be struggling. It is quite another to purposefully and selfishly refuse to provide a proper education for one's children. I have come to believe that this is what is happening with these people. They really have been faking it.



sen10tious -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 3:44:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

I don't see how calling CPS can go wrong.


I could probably list a hundred.



shadowspring -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 5:41:45 PM)

Authorities are placed by God for the protection of those who do right and the punishment of those who do evil. I trust in God to use authority for its rightful purpose if He is calling me to appeal to them on a victim's behalf. I do not believe that all social workers are evil, or heartless, or hate the righteous. Many of them are good people trying to do a hard job. Most of them are overworked. The may not be especially hopeful that their interventions will make much of a difference in the end, due to them seeing the same families over and over.

My experience with calling CPS is that there is usually a bunch of smoke and noise at first, that dies down not long after. Even when there is proof of physical abuse, I have seen them drag their heels and have to be practically forced (by 911 calls) to intervene. My greatest hesitation in contacting them is that they will DO NOTHING, not that they will yank children out of good homes without cause.

Now if you happen to belong to a polygamous sect in Texas, I am sure your opinion would (rightfully) differ from mine. [sm=aside.gif]

But this teen is being denied an education, and it is the job of government to ensure that all citizens have access to education. Our home schooling laws are meant to provide the least restrictive means possible to ensure that all citizens have access to an education while guaranteeing the rights of parents to direct the upbringing of their children.

I think in the case the state needs to be alerted to the fact that this child's rights as an American are being denied by her parents. She deserves an education.



shadowspring -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 5:50:39 PM)

quote:

My only concern over reporting this to a state agency is that I would hate to think that someone at the state level will assume that too many children are being neglected through hsing and try to legislate more gov't involvement and take away our freedom.


I think that is certainly more likely to be the assumption if home schoolers circle the wagons around fake home schoolers and defend the indefensible.



cynthia -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/12/2008 6:20:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

quote:

My only concern over reporting this to a state agency is that I would hate to think that someone at the state level will assume that too many children are being neglected through hsing and try to legislate more gov't involvement and take away our freedom.


I think that is certainly more likely to be the assumption if home schoolers circle the wagons around fake home schoolers and defend the indefensible.

Despite her concerns about this looking bad for honorable homeschoolers, no one has suggest that anyone defend fakers. Fakers hurt their children and it ripples out from there. Unfortunately we are all impacted by people who call themselves homeschoolers when they really have no interest in providing a proper education for their children. This does not factor into my decision about what to do. My concern is what the Lord would have me do in this situation.



shadowspring -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 8:29:28 AM)

"Fake Home Schoolers" is something that we (as a support group leader in Florida) have had to deal with frequently, which is why I wrote what I wrote. I was the liaison with the Office of Student Accounting in our county in Florida for our 300+ family home school group for three years.

We earned the respect of the OSA by refusing to cover for people who were not complying with state law, even though they declared themselves home schooling. Because of our reputation for integrity, the county referred new home schoolers to our support group when they sent in a notice of intent- going way beyond the requirements of the law in doing so!

(The law does not require anyone at the county to make home schooling any easier for anyone. So to refer a new home schooler to anyone in the veteran home school community showed the county's commitment to children/students as well as respect for what we as home schoolers were accomplishing.)

The OSA has a meeting with our support group liaison every year, and fake home schoolers is a topic that always comes up. Unfortunately, there are more of them out there than I would ever have guessed.

(Important note: I am not talking about unschoolers, who are legitimate home schoolers and can easily keep a record of daily learning activities and lists of texts used as required by law. Their activities may be farming, building a house, making a movie rather than writing a report, and the texts used are more likely to be user manuals than textbooks, but they are able to comply with state law. Fake home schoolers do not bother to comply with state law.)

Anyway, all that just to explain why I opined on the subject at hand. Nothing personal to anyone here.



allisonbrett -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 11:18:04 AM)

What can we do or I guess I should say what should we do when we encounter those that seem to fake at homeschooling? Are there avenues to take when you see parents willfully neglect their childrens education or when they refuse to follow the states requirements and guidelines?

I know when I've attempted to share info about curriculum options, library activities or even co-ops, to my in-laws who hs very poorly, they seem reluctant to put in the time and effort to help their children. They barely put in 2 hrs. per day and far less than the required number of days per year our state requires which means they must be padding their attendance reports to the county. Their children have never been in a library and have no outside socialization other than church on Sunday. This concerns me but to say anything seems to come across as judgmental or critical when its certainly meant to encourage and empower. I've always taken a very positive approach instead of a negative one that may be interpreted as criticism.

I'd hate this to turn into the HS mafia, ratting out those that don't follow the rules but at the same time give those children a voice when their education is being neglected. I'm certain that these fakers are few and far between since those I've met go above and beyond to educate their children.

What do we do?



Brandy -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 11:22:13 AM)

Cynthia what do your husband and mother think? They are both pretty level headed folk, I'd be interested in their take on the situation.



judii1 -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 11:31:51 AM)

quote:

I could probably list a hundred.

What if they get sent to an old lady and she slaps them in the face with a yardstick?
What if they never go to church?
What if it takes a couple of years and being sent to a half dozen or so foster homes before a good relative can finally get them out of foster care?
hmm, I guess I don't like the foster care/cps system very much, either!!

Cynthia, not trying to go against you, but sometimes I just wonder if the worst parents are actually worse than being sent to foster care???
OK, there may be thousands of people who really love kids and take them in when they need help. OTOH, it only takes one or two bad foster care placements to make a child's life a living hell!!!

quote:

I'd hate this to turn into the HS mafia, ratting out those that don't follow the rules but at the same time give those children a voice when their education is being neglected. I'm certain that these fakers are few and far between since those I've met go above and beyond to educate their children.

Then who is going to decide who is fake and who isn't? This is kind of scary 'cause there were times when I thought we weren't doing enough school! I am not saying that I was a fake homeschooler, but I know that we probably could have covered a lot more than we actually did a lot of times. ( It ended up that we must have done something right 'cause we sent Ds to school for a year (8th grade) and his average for the whole year for all subjects was over 86%. )
All I am saying is that before being the "mafia" pray about it!



cynthia -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 11:58:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brandy

Cynthia what do your husband and mother think? They are both pretty level headed folk, I'd be interested in their take on the situation.

They think the same as I do: There doesn't seem to be any way to really help this girl or the family. Turning them into CPS may not even be an option since they live so far away and I have not seen them in many months. Besides we are still not sure calling CPS would be a reasonable option. I had hoped to get more information when (now if) they come out for the summer to see if there is anything I could do to help them. I can see now that suggesting the girl call CPS is a ridiculous idea and have abandonded that, as has my husband. We feel we should have more seriously addressed this issue when we were in much closer contact.



narnia -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 12:13:10 PM)

Cynthia,

I'm not sure CPS is the answer either. I know you want her to get an education, but if she is moved from home to home, then she still will not get an education, due to all the interruptions. And once she's 18, educated or not, she is kicked out of the system and is on her own.

However, this might be an option:

http://heartland-ministries.org/recovery/youth.html



allisonbrett -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 3:46:24 PM)

While I don't know the details of this family I doubt very seriously that the state will remove the children unless there is an immediate danger to their health or well being. There are never enough foster families available so for a SW to get a court order to remove children would have to show that there is significant concern to remove them. They will most always seek other family members to place them with if the investigator finds sufficient cause. Foster care is always the last alternative.

As a fomer SW and investigator that last thing we ever wanted to do was remove children from the home. We had no where to put them. Those few places we did have were reserved for severe cases. Our goal was to equip parents to be more responsible parents through education, social services and information. The only children I ever removed from a home was when parents were going to jail and there wasn't suitable family to care for the children. So unless there is adequate physical or any sexual abuse it is highly unlikely that the children will be removed from the home. Emotional abuse is much harder to prove and usually only with the help of the juvenile courts.

edited to add:
The girl can call anonymously too or tell a friend or neighbor. Also all police officers, teachers, doctors, public safety, lawyers, etc. are required by law to report any suspected abuse. I would assume that other states are similar but in GA it is illegal for the identity of the person making the complaint to be divulged even in a court of law.



allisonbrett -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 4:03:05 PM)

Cynthia, I re-read your original post. I had some additional thoughts.

If i were assigned to this case I would see that the children were all enrolled in public schools and the case would remain open to monitor that the children were receiving an education. The schools would provide attendance records on the children and monitor the parents once or twice a month. If the parents refused then the case would go to juvenile courts. IMO the judge would most likely order the children to attend PS or put in place some sort of accountability for homeschooling, possibly even a tutor. Chances are a judge will order the children to PS. The juvenile judge I worked with for so long would most assuredly order PS with monitoring of attendance. Even with the oldest nearing 18 she can still attend a public school. If they move back to Wash state then the CPS unit would notify the area they are moving to with the case background.

It's a tough call to make and one to prayfully consider.

Blessings![:)]



TMeeks -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 9:41:04 PM)

What strikes me isn't the issue of schooling or not schooling. It is the issue of emotional abuse that needs to be addressed. The lack of schooling is simply one of the symptoms. The choice, then, it seems to me is to consider the outcome between reporting this potential emotional abuse and the not reporting it, in the long term life of the child.

If we take just one of the symptoms, the lack of education, it's easy to see that it will have not only an impact on her ability to live a full, rich life as an adult; but, also the narrowness in choices of life partners and her own parenting.

If we consider OUTCOMES as the critical deciding factor and weigh them, then it would seem to be a reasonable approach toward making a final decision. One of the mitigating factors is the mobility of the parents, since they go back and forth between coasts. It's NOT an easy issue to resolve.

Cynthia, please check for a PM.

Tom



Nashga5 -> RE: Fake Homeschoolers (6/13/2008 11:54:08 PM)

First as a member of law enforcement I would like to point out that if you know of any abuse it is your duty to report it. If you do not wish to call CPS you can call the Sheriff's Office. They should have a team of people that works with CPS to check out alligations. What you are talking about IS considered abuse. It MUST be reported.

There is another option. I do not like to make this option known becasue it can put the child in some danger. She can go to any SAFE ZONE and tell the people there what is going on. A safe zone is usually used for mothers who don't want their newborn babies. A safe place to leave them "no questions asked", however these safe zones are now required to take in teens and provide them with the necessary information to get help.

Also, you can look up homeschooling laws in other states. I forgot where I found that infromation, but I had to look it up when we left Florida to go to North Carolina. It might take you some searching, but it should be available. You should also be able to call the school district office. They can tell you the homeschool laws in that state and you could also express your concern there.

I beg you to not just sit by and allow this to continue happening. I am an adult survivor of abuse. NOBODY every suspected my father was doing, what he was doing to me until I had to be taken to the hospital. You may only hear yelling, but what is emotionally and physically going on? You really don't know. Please protect this child, she deserves a fighting chance at life, and at age 15 most of her time is gone. She will be an adult soon, she needs her education.



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