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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 10:43:21 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: kelman
That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
Of course your view has the flesh pleasing God, the sacrifice of the wicked is NOT an abomination to the Lord and the Lord is NOT far from the wicked... IF Cornelius was not saved...
Please also read Heb 11:6 in its entirety. By his believing in what God had made evident to him concerning Himself, and seeking Him in a meaningful way, as he did, he was pleasing God. And God answered his prayers, which you cannot deny.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/26/2008 10:45:18 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Regarding prayer... How... If not by the Holy Spirit, how?
John
Dear John,
I can tell you that in my case, I poured out my heart to God, not knowing for sure if He existed, but hoping He did. And begging Him to reveal Himself to me. And this was before I was regenerated, prior to having the Holy Spirit. But I sure was praying with all my might. Now you can believe me or not.
I've known several people who called out to God before they were Christians. Not everything can be explained down to the last jot and tittle. Some things are....mysteries.
Heavendweller
The word of God trumps personal accounts...John
John, the Word God trumps your understanding of Cornelius. He was not saved at the beginning of Acts 10. It is amazing to me that you don't see that.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 12:59:38 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
That is an amazing statement. Please read Acts 10 and 11:14. Cornelius was NOT a believer at the beginning of Acts 10 when he was described as God fearing and praying continually.
Ok...
Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Proverbs 10:2 Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death.
Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?
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Does that sound like a believer to you, really?
Yes, it does....
Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Again... I will state the most of the folks here who claim Christ don't measure up to the above...
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Cornelius prayed from his own soul,
Sans the Holy Spirit? If a BELIEVER needs the Holy Spirit to pray how much more so an alleged unbeliever?
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 1:05:41 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
My understanding of man's total depravity is that man is completely unable to save himself. Zero. And I appreciated your comments on the fact that unregenerate men can comprehend the gospel, which, according to reformed theology, man cannot do until they are regenerated.
Comprehension doesn't equate to wisdom... Understanding the meaning of words doesn't mean one believes and or has faith...
John
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 6/27/2008 1:13:09 AM >
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 1:08:56 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
Of course your view has the flesh pleasing God, the sacrifice of the wicked is NOT an abomination to the Lord and the Lord is NOT far from the wicked... IF Cornelius was not saved...
Please also read Heb 11:6 in its entirety. By his believing in what God had made evident to him concerning Himself, and seeking Him in a meaningful way, as he did, he was pleasing God. And God answered his prayers, which you cannot deny.
Please read Romans 8:8....
John
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 9:21:49 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
That is an amazing statement. Please read Acts 10 and 11:14. Cornelius was NOT a believer at the beginning of Acts 10 when he was described as God fearing and praying continually.
Ok...
You agree with my request for you to read Acts 10 and 11:14, yet you then go off into Prov as if that is going to prove anything? Why didn't you just read Acts 10 and 11:14? Your claim that Cornelius was a believer at the beginning of Acts 10 is pure fantasy. The angel told Cornelius that Peter was going to bring words (the gospel) by which he and his household would be saved. Why would the angel say that if he was a believer already?
Do you think a believer may not be saved?
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Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.
Proverbs 10:2 Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: but righteousness delivereth from death.
Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?
These verses are general principles, but in no way demand that Cornelius had to be saved in order to be reverencing God and praying. You seem to be having a very difficult time grasping the connection with Romans 1. Since God has made Himself evident to mankind, so that no one has any excuse for not recognizing and honoring Him, those who do not honor him do so suppressing the truth that God has made evident.
It should be quite obvious that Cornelius didn't suppress that truth that God had made evident to him, but rather, recognized and honored God the only way he knew how. He still wasn't saved at that time, but he did what God wants everyone to do. Why do I say that? Acts 17:27 says that is why God created mankind; that they should seek Him, which Cornelius did.
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Does that sound like a believer to you, really?
Yes, it does....
Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
If he was a believer, please explain to this thread why God sent an angel to him to tell him to send for Peter, who would "speak words by which you and your household will be saved". Thanks.
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Cornelius prayed from his own soul,
Sans the Holy Spirit? If a BELIEVER needs the Holy Spirit to pray how much more so an alleged unbeliever?
Do you know what prayer is? It is talking with God. Why do you think that an unbeliever cannot talk with God?
Have you ignored the testimony of Heavendweller? He in a state of unregeneration, didn't even know if God really existed, yet, asked God, if He existed, to reveal Himself. Wow. HD's testimony puts your pov to rest, my friend.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 9:28:21 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
John, the Word God trumps your understanding of Cornelius. He was not saved at the beginning of Acts 10. It is amazing to me that you don't see that.
Heh...
The beginning of Acts 10... Yep... Sounds like a unbeliever to me... Could he be more evil???? 
Your sarcasm helps your case zip.
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1. There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2. A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
And an angel sent by God tells him to send for Peter, who will "speak words by which you will be saved".
Again, you you think one can be a believer and not be saved?
And please answer why God sent an angel to tell him to send for Peter who brought the gospel to him. How could he be a believer apart from having the gospel?
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 9:32:18 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
Of course your view has the flesh pleasing God, the sacrifice of the wicked is NOT an abomination to the Lord and the Lord is NOT far from the wicked... IF Cornelius was not saved...
Please also read Heb 11:6 in its entirety. By his believing in what God had made evident to him concerning Himself, and seeking Him in a meaningful way, as he did, he was pleasing God. And God answered his prayers, which you cannot deny.
Please read Romans 8:8....John
John, you probably think Rom 8 is speaking about unbelievers, but Paul is differentiating between living in the power of the Holy Spirit vs living in one's own effort. And the principle of pleasing God is based on faith, per Heb 11:6. Please don't ignore the last half of v.6. It connects directly to Rom 1.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 4:26:14 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
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That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
God draws men and lifts the veil of unbelief…they still have to be exposed as to what to belief. Just because election is true does not preclude the fact that we still have to carry the gospel to them. Yes, I agree with you. Paul is very clear on this in Rom 10:14.
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"
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Man might be looking for a God but until they understand who Jesus Christ is…they sure are not looking for Him. Cornelius is evidence of this...looking for God; but not for Jesus. So, unless God brings the Gospel to them, as it was brought to Cornelius by Peter, and takes the veil away they will remain in darkness.
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The differences is that man might see God but until they have the faith to believe that Christ is God they are lost. And until they honor Christ as God they can never honor the Father.
That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. -John 5:23
_____________________________
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 4:27:20 PM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Cornelius is an example of an unbeliever who didn't suppress the truth; rather, he recognized and honored God (God fearing and continual prayer).
Cornelius was a believer... If not the following would have applied...
Proverbs 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.
Proverbs 15:29 The Lord is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous. That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration.
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Acts 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Acts 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
I don't think these verses offer any clues as to whether Cornelius was saved at this point. Afterall, many unsaved Jews were devout, prayed and did good works.
I agree.  What a shocker!! 
I confess I had to reread what I wrote since you agreed with me on it :)
I knew if we kept at this long enough, we'd find something...
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 4:28:48 PM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
That can only be assumed if you don't think he became regenerated when the Holy Spirit fell on him in Acts 10:44. Do you? Without those last few verses I would come to the same conclusion - that he was regenerated already in verse 1. But, because those verses are there, I think his actions were the drawing of the Father - not regeneration. Of course your view has the flesh pleasing God, the sacrifice of the wicked is NOT an abomination to the Lord and the Lord is NOT far from the wicked... IF Cornelius was not saved... And, of course, your view would be that God never hears the unsaved as they plead for His mercy.
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I don't think these verses offer any clues as to whether Cornelius was saved at this point.
I doubt half the folks on the fourm would measure up to the above.... Hmm, your view is that half the people here are not saved as Cornelius was...interesting, judgmental; but interesting nonetheless.
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Afterall, many unsaved Jews were devout, prayed and did good works.
The "good" works of the unsaved are not "good" in the eyes of God when He says even the their tender mercies are evil... Uh, no one said they were.
_____________________________
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 4:30:11 PM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Not at all. Did you miss the fact that Rom 3:11 comes directly from Psa 14 and 53, which is about fools who say in their heart there is no God? Those are the ones, according to Romans 1, who suppress the truth of what God has made evident to everyone? You've said this many times. But, the fact remains, Paul deliberately LEFT out the word "fools" meaning he was saying something else in addition to what was said in Psa 14.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/27/2008 8:53:05 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Not at all. Did you miss the fact that Rom 3:11 comes directly from Psa 14 and 53, which is about fools who say in their heart there is no God? Those are the ones, according to Romans 1, who suppress the truth of what God has made evident to everyone? You've said this many times. But, the fact remains, Paul deliberately LEFT out the word "fools" meaning he was saying something else in addition to what was said in Psa 14.
What do you mean, that Paul "left out" the word "fools"? Did you read Romans 1:21? "Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nore were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
Direct link to Psa 14 and 53, which he quoted in 3:10.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/28/2008 1:04:45 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Not at all. Did you miss the fact that Rom 3:11 comes directly from Psa 14 and 53, which is about fools who say in their heart there is no God? Those are the ones, according to Romans 1, who suppress the truth of what God has made evident to everyone? You've said this many times. But, the fact remains, Paul deliberately LEFT out the word "fools" meaning he was saying something else in addition to what was said in Psa 14.
What do you mean, that Paul "left out" the word "fools"? Did you read Romans 1:21? "Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nore were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
Direct link to Psa 14 and 53, which he quoted in 3:10.
I meant that despite Rom 3:11 coming from Ps 14, Paul does not use the word "fool". And, I doubt he simply forgot to. In Rom 3:11 Paul is concluding this situation is typical of all men everywhere - both Jew and Gentile.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/28/2008 9:30:53 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Not at all. Did you miss the fact that Rom 3:11 comes directly from Psa 14 and 53, which is about fools who say in their heart there is no God? Those are the ones, according to Romans 1, who suppress the truth of what God has made evident to everyone? You've said this many times. But, the fact remains, Paul deliberately LEFT out the word "fools" meaning he was saying something else in addition to what was said in Psa 14.
What do you mean, that Paul "left out" the word "fools"? Did you read Romans 1:21? "Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nore were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
Direct link to Psa 14 and 53, which he quoted in 3:10.
I meant that despite Rom 3:11 coming from Ps 14, Paul does not use the word "fool". And, I doubt he simply forgot to. In Rom 3:11 Paul is concluding this situation is typical of all men everywhere - both Jew and Gentile.
I think it's quite foolish to ignore what Paul is saying. He makes the point in Rom 1 that the ones who suppress the truth of what God has made evident to mankind have foolish hearts; hence, they are fools. Then he makes the point in 3:9 that everyone is under sin, not just "all kinds of men", as calvinism likes to translate "all". Then, he quotes Psa 14 and 53 about fools. You want to think that Paul is calling the entire human race fools, but Paul didn't make any such claim. He told us in Rom 1 that no one has any excuse for not recognizing and honoring God.
Those who suppress that truth are fools. Cornelius is an excellent example of one unbeliever who didn't suppress the truth. To the contrary, he recognized and honored God, and God answered his prayers.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/29/2008 3:19:53 AM
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kelman
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quote:
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Not at all. Did you miss the fact that Rom 3:11 comes directly from Psa 14 and 53, which is about fools who say in their heart there is no God? Those are the ones, according to Romans 1, who suppress the truth of what God has made evident to everyone? You've said this many times. But, the fact remains, Paul deliberately LEFT out the word "fools" meaning he was saying something else in addition to what was said in Psa 14.
What do you mean, that Paul "left out" the word "fools"? Did you read Romans 1:21? "Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nore were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
Direct link to Psa 14 and 53, which he quoted in 3:10. I meant that despite Rom 3:11 coming from Ps 14, Paul does not use the word "fool". And, I doubt he simply forgot to. In Rom 3:11 Paul is concluding this situation is typical of all men everywhere - both Jew and Gentile. I think it's quite foolish to ignore what Paul is saying. It's equally as foolish to ignore what he did NOT say. He did not use the word and he said he was speaking of all men - Jew and Gentile. He begins chapter 3 with "What advantage then hath the Jew?" And then in verse 9 he says: "No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
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Then he makes the point in 3:9 that everyone is under sin, not just "all kinds of men", as calvinism likes to translate "all". True, that's what he's saying in verse 9. Who is it that says Paul does not mean every single person without exception in verse 9-10? Of course, he is describing the corrupt nature of all mankind. Although, highly unlikely, the possibility does seem to exist that we agree Paul is not calling anyone a fool in chapter 3.
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Then, he quotes Psa 14 and 53 about fools. You want to think that Paul is calling the entire human race fools, but Paul didn't make any such claim. No, just the opposite - he didn't call the entire human race fools in chapter 3. He called the entire human race corrupt and depraved from vv 9 through 18.
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/30/2008 3:04:12 AM
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doublecross
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ORIGINAL: LXX
I was in a chat room with a fellow believer and we got on the subject of infant salvation. He seem to believe in a black and white version of born into sin. Meaning, if you die at any age without the belief in Christ then you are lost. I responded that infants and children that are not at the age of accountability fall under a special grace by God. He responded by "show me the verse". He was not, to my understanding, having an attitude but was inquisitive.
So I explained first that in 1Co 13:12, (For now we see through a mirror in dimness, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will fully know even as I also was fully known.), that understanding a few subjects might fall under this scripture. Meaning, there are some scriptures that will allude to it and some mysteries will not be fully known by us.
With that said I used, 2Sa 12:23 (And now he has died. Why this, that I should fast? Am I able to bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.) This is David's 1st child and God said David's first will die because of David's sin and his responce was that he can't bring the child back but he will meet him in heaven.
Now this is an example of a child that is not accountable due to his understanding and the punishment from God was the death of this child. But God's grace gave David the insight to make a statement like he did that he would be with him in the after life.
I am not a calvinist but this website has a very knowledgable opinion on this subject.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.xi.html?highlight=infant,salvation#highlight
In conclusion using 1co 13:12 as our format of this subject and 2Sa 12:23 as a reference text I can without any doubt know that infants and children before the age of accountability are under God's special grace and will be in heaven if the pass away because of the neverending love of God toward this world during this grace we fall under.
Maybe it is just me or maybe it is just my ignorance. So whatever I say please do not take it personally. I have had children who never saw the light of day. And for me it is still a great unknown. But whatever I believe in, I do not think that I am capable of passing judgement and even send my infant children to heaven or hell. Nothing that I would say would either make them saints or sinners in the sight of God.
God is the only one that can pass judgement so I say, why speculate with what God will do to their souls? Is it a needful thing to know? Doesn't a child come out of the mother's womb lying? Didn't John and Jesus leap when they felt each other from the womb? Was David not conceived in sin (not through sin, in sin, big difference)? Isn't the only way to heaven is through the Lord Jesus?
All this things go against the innocent but maybe they are not in the eyes of the Lord. Cruel? Maybe, but that is the sentimental me talking right now. It also forcing me to ignore these texts and be on my way in pronouncing my 4 still-born children saints and saved. I am not their judge and what I see in scriptures is grim.
Just like so many unbelievers, I see grim. Are they more deserving to die than the unborn or ignorant? I say yes but that is just me again trying to weigh which God might weigh differently. Didn't the apostle said that unless they hear they will not believe and unless they believe they will not be saved?
So where am I suppose to be on the matter? To the side of scriptures for now because the souls of my children where never my property. My wife grieved for their unheard voices but it is ultimately the Lord who gave them no life. If he can be that sovereign would he not be sovereign enough to make judgements on them?
I hope it was for the good of their souls but if it is to the contrary of the truth of God, shall I choose to be grieved if it did not go my way? Who am I but man just groping in the dark trying to find answers.
Whatever the answers may be, let God be true and all men be liars.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/30/2008 3:56:47 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: doublecross
Didn't the apostle said that unless they hear they will not believe and unless they believe they will not be saved? Many hear with physical ears but never hear with "spiritual" ears. So, the Gospel brings them no salvation.
But, babies in the womb can hear with their spiritual ears if God so grants them this grace. Your unborn children were in the presense of the Gospel.
Faith is a gift from God, who is to say these babies were not given this gift? Scripture seems clear on the possibility. John the Baptist was saved "even from his mother's womb"(Luke 1:15).
Though, I don't know you, still, let me say I'm sorry for your precious loses.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 6/30/2008 7:47:28 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: doublecross
Didn't the apostle said that unless they hear they will not believe and unless they believe they will not be saved? Many hear with physical ears but never hear with "spiritual" ears. So, the Gospel brings them no salvation.
kelman, the only reason people don't hear is because they aren't listening or paying attention. That's just one way to suppress the truth spoken of in Romans 1.
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But, babies in the womb can hear with their spiritual ears if God so grants them this grace.
kelman, this is totally nonsense. You have absolutely no support from Scripture for this statement. The subject of this thread is about the un-accountable. Neither babies in the womb or out of the womb can comprehend their sin or guilt or solution. iow, they are un-accountable.
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Your unborn children were in the presense of the Gospel.
Where is your proof for this statement.
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Faith is a gift from God, who is to say these babies were not given this gift?
The gift that God gives is eternal life, and He gives it to whosoever believes in His Son. As for faith, He created mankind with the intellectual ability to believe or reject all kinds of things. iow, he gave mankind the capacity to comprehend His gospel and the freedom to receive or reject it.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/1/2008 1:46:26 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Many hear with physical ears but never hear with "spiritual" ears. So, the Gospel brings them no salvation.
kelman, the only reason people don't hear is because they aren't listening or paying attention. That's just one way to suppress the truth spoken of in Romans 1.
Nope, FG, just read the account of the wheat and the tares. They both grow together, they both "hear". In fact, they "hear" year after year after year as they sit in their pews. But only those whose heart God has changed, whose heart God has opened(Acts 16:14) will spiritually hear the Gospel. To the rest, it remains nothing more than an intellectual exercise.
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But, babies in the womb can hear with their spiritual ears if God so grants them this grace.
kelman, this is totally nonsense. You have absolutely no support from Scripture for this statement. Since there is, in fact, scriptural evidence, what is nonsense is essentially your calling Scripture nonsense. John the Baptist is the primary example. You're so wrapped-up in your free will that you can allow God no part in bringing a baby, or anyone else for that matter, to salvation.
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The subject of this thread is about the un-accountable. Neither babies in the womb or out of the womb can comprehend their sin or guilt or solution. iow, they are un-accountable.
Your unscriptural doctrine of some kind of age of accountability holds you in bondage from seeing that there is only ONE solution. That solution is for God to change the heart - to regenerate - to make one born from above. And God accomplishes that even with babies in the womb. Scripture is clear all are accountable to God(Romans 3:10-13).
Tell me, FG if an adult has no interest in the Gospel, and he dies unsaved, what was his condition as a little baby? He was unsaved. We do not become saved and then lose our salvation.
All humanity is infected with sin even a baby's heart is(Psalm 58:3-4). Therefore, babies need salvation just as much as any adult does.
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Your unborn children were in the presense of the Gospel.
Where is your proof for this statement.
Your problem, FG, is your failure to understand that the message of the Gospel, and the reception of it, is spiritual. The poster appears to be a Christian, perhaps his wife is also; and, if so, surely the babies were in the presense of the Gospel. How could they not be?
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Faith is a gift from God, who is to say these babies were not given this gift?
The gift that God gives is eternal life, and He gives it to whosoever believes in His Son. As for faith, He created mankind with the intellectual ability to believe or reject all kinds of things. iow, he gave mankind the capacity to comprehend His gospel and the freedom to receive or reject it. You recite the mantra of the freewillers just fine; but, nonetheless it lacks the truth of Scripture. God tells us how He saves an individual:
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. -Ezekiel 36:25-27
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/1/2008 9:14:08 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7959
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Tell me, FG if an adult has no interest in the Gospel, and he dies unsaved, what was his condition as a little baby? He was unsaved. We do not become saved and then lose our salvation.
Right. No one begins life "saved", as you seem to suggest I think. The point of this thread, since you've missed it, is the issue of un-accountability. We are all born in sin and unsaved, yet un-accountable, whether you will admit it or not. The issue here is this: what does God do witht the un-accountable?
Your theology attempts to answer the question by claiming that God decides who will believe, therefore who will be saved. Your theology goes to the extreme by having to claim that God "gives faith" to infants who die, which cannot be supported anywhere.
My theology is that we are all born spiritually dead (separted from God) and unsaved. Christ died for everyone in order to propitiate the Father. Those who die in a state of un-accountabity are saved because they weren't able to see or understand the evidence that God gives to everyone and therefore have an excuse for not recognizing and honoring God.
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Your unborn children were in the presense of the Gospel.
Where is your proof for this statement.
Your problem, FG, is your failure to understand that the message of the Gospel, and the reception of it, is spiritual. The poster appears to be a Christian, perhaps his wife is also; and, if so, surely the babies were in the presense of the Gospel. How could they not be?
They were in the womb. You are suggesting that the gospel was in the womb. That is silly.
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/1/2008 6:17:37 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 557
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
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kelman,
I accept your stance, but I strongly disagree.
Is that based on my being spiritually blind?
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/2/2008 3:21:22 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FolkSingerBlues
kelman,
I accept your stance, but I strongly disagree.
Is that based on my being spiritually blind?
I discuss people's theology not their relationship with God.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? - 7/2/2008 3:23:07 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The point of this thread, since you've missed it, is the issue of un-accountability. We are all born in sin and unsaved, yet un-accountable, whether you will admit it or not. The issue here is this: what does God do witht the un-accountable? The point you miss is that ALL humanity is accountable.
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Your theology attempts to answer the question by claiming that God decides who will believe, therefore who will be saved. Your theology goes to the extreme by having to claim that God "gives faith" to infants who die, which cannot be supported anywhere.
I don't know about it being supported "anywher | | |
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