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sunofone -> RE: Salvation for the un-accountable? (6/18/2008 10:57:12 AM)
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quote:
Infants are incapable of responding to the Gospel, therefore God must have a provision for their salvation other than the above. Nonetheless, Scripture does not clearly address this matter, and to build a doctrine on silence is neither prudent nor necessary.
We must therefore simply commit infants who die to God's infinite grace, and allow for the fact that their sins were indeed atoned for at Calvary. First off this is not the entire post of Ezra's.I am responding to the point he raised concerning infants salvation.The words have not been altered,nor have I taken it out of context.
I wanted to respond to the info in the post I felt was most relevant to the op.
I think this topic is relevant in so far as it relates to understanding the will/plan of God for creation(All Creation)I know it has been stated several times that the op is not answerable because scripture does not clearly address this matter.We have even been cautioned not draw conclusions from silence.
I both get and appreciate the value of the assessment of the situation here,yet I submit to you,that this amounts to a very problematic position.To say that scripture is silent in this area,therefore we can not,nor should we intrude intellectually into areas are restricted by God,is one a cop out,and two takes all credibility away from those who build doctrine from silence.
If the bible is unclear on this matter,or worse yet silent there can be no spreading of the doctrine of eternal torment of unbelievers.If we can't even identify the precise time,or way a person is held accountable for their nature,that demands judgment from God.
We must hold still our tongue in condemning any man to eternal torment.We know why God judges,we even know what God judges,yet we say we are unclear when this judgment is applied.
If we can not settle this question through the word of God with absolute certainty,than we need to shut our mouths and leave judgment for God and go our own merry way.
Now let's deal with the salvation of infants as addressed by Ezra here,and by others who hold the same or similar view.To say that God must have as in certainty,provided atonement of sins for infants,and the mentally inform.Puts you firmly in the UR camp,you have essentially said that the cross was God's answer for those who are not able to come to a decision to choose God.
UR states that God is the savior of ALL MEN,as no man can come to God on his own.Therefore regardless of age every man is like the infant or mentally impaired who simply can't come to a place of choosing God.
Scripture actually supports the position that ALL MEN,are incapable of choosing God of their own volition.Therefore if God must save the infant,and the mentally infirmed,he must then save ALL,as we are all like the infant incapable of choosing him on our own.
I know we will argue that once a person reaches the age of accountability he is then responsible for his choices.We will say that at some point men can choose to accept God or reject him.It is at this point that God is just in judging us according to the value of our decision.
I submit to you that this argument is fundamentally flawed is supported by scripture nowhere.You will not find any mention of a age of accountability.The scripture do not teach that we all come into this world saved and justified through the cross,and then at some point have that salvation yanked away from us,and must earn it back by exercising good judgment.
We can not run to our respective schools of theological persuasion,nor claim that God has left us in the dark when confronted with this issue.We must simply see what God has said on the issue,and accept it,regardless of how this may conflict with our theological position.
We must not practice theological,nor logical dishonesty in either dodging the question,or solving by force fitting it into our already accepted belief system.We have to deal with this head on,and blindness,or silence of scripture is no excuse to go to a fall back position here.
Let us look at scripture to see whether scripture is indeed silent on this matter,or if it is screamingly loud,and abundantly clear on this issue.If it is neither,then we must not ever again challenge another creature on this earth as to the coming judgment of God.
Because if we can't clearly show them what they are being judged for,why and at what point they are being judged.Than we must shut our mouth and leave judgment in the hands of God.
This is a long post,but if we're serious about searching out the truth in Gods word then it is worth the effort it takes to read it.Otherwise why not just say that God will save those who will be saved and call it a day?
John Chp 1 vs10-1210 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power F2 to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: The following commentary is from various authors concerning the verses in John chp 1.Two arguments are key to me here,and I'm offering these arguments for your consideration.
1.)Note the word world and it's usage has to carefully weighed,and balanced;That is the same word is used to describe the universe,a particular locale,ie Jesus physical presence and a specific people,ie.. the Jewish audience,although not inclusive of the entire Jewish nation.
2.)Note the order of Sonship in vs 12,as many as received him,ie.. believed in him,to them gave he the power to include the ability to become sons of God.
Now I'll pause the argument to show commentary concerning the verses in question:
v. 10. He was in the world, as the essential Word, before his incarnation, upholding all things; but this speaks of his being in the world when he took our nature upon him, and dwelt among us; see ch. 16:28. I am come into the world. The Son of the Highest was here in this lower world; that light in this dark world; that holy thing in this sinful polluted world.
"The world," in the first two clauses, plainly means the created world, into which He came, says John 1:9; "in it He was," says this verse. By His Incarnation, He became an inhabitant of it, and bound up with it. Yet it "was made by Him" (John 1:3-5). Here, then, it is merely alluded to, in contrast partly with His being in it, but still more with the reception He met with from it. "The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
And the world knew him not;
that is, the inhabitants of the world knew him not as their Creator: nor did they acknowledge the mercies they received from him; nor did they worship, serve, and obey him, or love and fear him; nor did they, the greater part of them, know him as the Messiah, Mediator, Saviour, and Redeemer. But as many--individuals, of the "disobedient and gainsaying people."
I think it should be clear here that the word world is not necessarily inclusive of all mankind,it can indeed be limited to a specific group of people,or at the very least does not by reason of it's implication include all,as not all Israel ie.. the world recognized him not.It was simply the greater part of Israel,i.e.. the world who did not.
Now for the second part of the argument,see commentary on vs 12:
The Father predestinated men to the adoption of children, secures this blessing for them in the covenant of his grace, and puts them among the children, and assigns them a goodly heritage: the Spirit, and who is therefore called the spirit of adoption, discovers and applies this blessing to them, and witnesses to their spirits that they are the children of God: and Christ, the word, or Son of God, not only espoused their persons, and in time assumed their nature, and by the redemption of them opened a way for their reception of the adoption of children; but actually bestows upon them the "power", as it is here called, of becoming the sons of God:
by which is meant, not a power of free will to make themselves the sons of God, if they will make use of it; but it signifies the honour and dignity conferred on such persons: so Nonnus calls it, "the heavenly honour"; as indeed, what can be a greater? It is more honourable than to be a son or daughter of the greatest potentate on earth: and it is expressive of its being a privilege; for so it is an undeserved and distinguishing one, and is attended with many other privileges; for such are of God's household and family, and are provided for by him; have liberty of access unto him; are Christ's free men, and are heirs to an incorruptible inheritance.
This is a privilege that excels all others, even justification and remission of sins; and is an everlasting one: and it also intends the open right which believers have unto this privilege, and their claim of it: hence it follows,
even to them that believe in his name;
that is, in himself, in Christ, the word: the phrase is explanative of the former part of the verse, and is a descriptive and manifestative character of the sons of God; for though the elect of God, by virtue of electing grace, and the covenant of grace, are the children of God before faith; and were so considered in the gift of them to Christ, and when he came into the world to gather them together, and save them; and so, antecedent to the Spirit of God, being sent down into their hearts, to make this known to them; yet no man can know his adoption, nor enjoy the comfort of it, or claim his interest in it, until he believes.
gave he power--The word signifies both authority and ability, and both are certainly meant here.
to become--Mark these words: Jesus is the Son of God; He is never said to have become such.
the sons--or more simply, "sons of God," in name and in nature.
believe on his name--a phrase never used in Scripture of any mere creature, to express the credit given to human testimony, even of prophets or apostles, inasmuch it carries with it the idea of trust proper only towards GOD. In this sense of supreme faith, as due to Him who "gives those that believe in Himself power to become sons of God," it is manifestly used here. The world that knew Him not" (1 John 3:1) is of course the intelligent world of mankind.
Next we will see how faith has to precede belief,so that it can not be said that belief is credited to human initiative:
He shows that the word preached is the ordinary means of working faith (v. 17): So then, ara — however; though many that hear do not believe, yet those that believe have first heard. Faith cometh by hearing. It is the summary of what he had said before, v. 14. The beginning, progress, and strength of faith, are by hearing. The word of God is therefore called the word of faith: it begets and nourishes faith. God gives faith, but it is by the word as the instrument. Hearing (that hearing which works faith) is by the word of God. It is not hearing the enticing words of man’s wisdom, but hearing the word of God, that will befriend faith, and hearing it as the word of God.
So where does faith come from? How does one get the faith that is necessary for belief?
17.So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God--"This is another confirmation of the truth that faith supposes the hearing of the Word, and this a commission to preach it."
So faith comes by hearing,and hearing by the word of God;But is this the singular means of faith.That is,does God use the spoken word,as preached by Preachers as the only agent of saving faith? Let us consider commentary of 1st Peter 3 vs1 ans 1st Corinthians 7 vs 16 as an alternative of God providing saving faith even if the preached word has failed to do so:
They also may without the word be won. That even those who have steeled themselves against the gospel and who refuse to listen to it may be quietly won by the sweet, Christian lives of their wives. 16. How knowest thou, O wife, etc. Let the Christian be gentle, forbearing, unselfish, though true to Christ, and perhaps the result will be that they will be God's means to save their partner. This has occurred in thousands of instances.
So here we have an example of saving faith coming not from the preached word of God,but rather the silent yet effective voiced of the lived word.The word put into practice which also produces saving faith.
There is one more example of saving faith being produced without the preached word here:
18. But I say, Have they not heard?--"Did they not hear?" Can Israel, through any region of his dispersion, plead ignorance of these glad tidings?
Yes, verily, their sound went--"their voice went out"
into all the earth, and their words unto the end of the world--These beautiful words are from Psalms 19:4. Whether the apostle quoted them as in their primary intention applicable to his subject (as OLSHAUSEN, ALFORD, &c.), or only "used scriptural language to express his own ideas, as is done involuntarily almost by every preacher in every sermon" [HODGE], expositors are not agreed.
Lord, who hath believed our report? 17. So, then, faith cometh by hearing. Hence the need of preaching. If God by a miracle wrought faith in the heart, he could dispense with the preacher. But the divine arrangement is that it should result from hearing the word of God preached. For an example of the gospel plan, see Acts 18:8. 18. Have they not heard? Who are alluded to? Both Jews and Gentiles. The objector might say, Well, if faith comes by hearing, so few have heard that we are not responsible for our unbelief. Nay, says the apostle, the opportunity to hear has been very widely extended. In the language of the Psalmist (19:4), Their sound (that of the preachers of the gospel) is gone out into all the earth. When the vast multitude converted on Pentecost were scattered to their homes, they carried the gospel into all parts of the civilized world. Paul was now writing to the church in Rome, where no apostle had ever been.
From the things that are seen every day by all the world the psalmist, in these verses, leads us to the consideration of the invisible things of God, whose being appears incontestably evident and whose glory shines transcendently bright in the visible heavens, the structure and beauty of them, and the order and influence of the heavenly bodies.
This instance of the divine power serves not only to show the folly of atheists, who see there is a heaven and yet say, "There is no God,’’ who see the effect and yet say, "There is no cause,’’ but to show the folly of idolaters also, and the vanity of their imagination, who, though the heavens declare the glory of God, yet gave that glory to the lights of heaven which those very lights directed them to give to God only, the Father of lights. Now observe here, 1. What that is which the creatures notify to us. They are in many ways useful and serviceable to us, but in nothing so much as in this, that they declare the glory of God, by showing his handy-works,
v. 1. They plainly speak themselves to be God’s handy-works; for they could not exist from eternity; all succession and motion must have had a beginning; they could not make themselves, that is a contradiction; they could not be produced by a casual hit of atoms, that is an absurdity, fit rather to be bantered than reasoned with: therefore they must have a Creator, who can be no other than an eternal mind, infinitely wise, powerful, and good. Thus it appears they are God’s works, the works of his fingers (Ps. 8:3), and therefore they declare his glory
The constant and regular succession of day and night (v. 2): Day unto day, and night unto night, speak the glory of that God
His universal influence on this earth: There is nothing hidden from the heart thereof, no, not metals in the bowels of the earth, which the sun has an influence upon. III. To whom this declaration is made of the glory of God. It is made to all parts of the world (v. 3, 4): There is no speech nor language (no nation, for the nations were divided after their tongues, Gen. 10:31, 32) where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone through all the earth (the equinoctial line, suppose) and with it their words to the end of the world, proclaiming the eternal power of God of nature,
v. 4. The apostle uses this as a reason why the Jews should not be angry with him and others for preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, because God had already made himself known to the Gentile world by the works of creation, and left not himself without witness among them (Rom. 10:18)
Here we have an example of Gods creation preaching the word in absence and in conjunction with the called Preacher,so that it can be said that the word of God has been preached throughout all the earth,leaving no excuse for any not to have faith in God,even in absence of the preached word.
So I said all of this to offer a viewpoint that Salvation is of Gods doing and his initiative.He alone is the author and finisher of our faith.Faith simply put is a gift from God,a gift extended in a general sense.So that no man can say that he has not had the invitation.
But to those who do respond to the invitation can accept no credit for having done so.In the end we are left with the fact that God chooses those that are his,not the other way around.
We have not chosen him,but he has chosen us.(John 15vs16,19,Matthew 22 vs14,1st peter 2 vs 9)
< Message edited by sunofone -- 6/10/2008 1:20:38 PM >
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