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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/17/2008 9:44:43 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
As I have stated before. Rights come from God, not governments.
You won't find "rights" in the Bible...unless you're looking at the democratic paragon of Rome. My Bible says I should get what I deserve, but Jesus took care of that on my behalf. I have no rights...I belong to God, not myself...I am dead to "self". So says Paul, so we can argue that point with him when we get to heaven, if we still so desire.
While your analysis is correct, I'm not sure if your conclusion- that "rights" don't exist is.
Do we have free will? Wait wait, don't tell me- you're a Calvinist. 
But in any case, if free will really does exist, then there's not much of a point to free will unless there is the God-given right to exercise it (and responsibility to do the right thing with it.) And if God gives people certain rights, then those rights should apply universally.
Our founding fathers believed that everybody is endowed with certain rights by their creator, and even if this isn't specifically spelled out in the Bible, it doesn't mean it isn't true. Reason and logic seem to imply that if God didn't want us to have the right to free speech, we wouldn't be able to control our mouths. If we didn't have the right to being treated justly, we wouldn't have had the books of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, as well as 3/4 of Exodus (which actually do spell things out to ensure fair trials.)
This is not an issue I've given large amounts of thoughts to. But some things spring to mind. If we're to love others as we love ourselves (and that's agape love), and we're to put others first, and if the first shall be last and the last shall be first, I therefore deduct that my "rights" are not, and should not be, all that important...especially to me. If we're living the Christian life as we should be, I'll be looking out for your "rights" and you'll be looking out for my "rights" (I REALLY hate that word).
Actually, more importantly than that, we're told the main function of the Church is to look out and care for widows and orphans. In other words, those that cannot care for themselves. We have responsibility to put their needs ahead of our own.
"I no longer live, but Christ lives in me." Well, let's use Jesus as our example. What did he do about His rights? Our reason and our logic don't often apply in the ways of God...His ways are so much higher than ours.
I don't know if that fits here, but the Lord brought it to my mind anyway.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/17/2008 10:25:08 PM
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freakofnature
Posts: 856
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What rights do those in Iran have, The Palestinian territories, Sudan... all of the various places that are under Sharia Law...
Better yet, what rights will you have after they invade us, take over Washington, burn our constitution and declare Sharia law within our own country?
And don't give me that "strawman" argument, it is possible and it could happen, that is why we have to get ahead of the terrorist and not treat them like criminals after the crime has already been commited.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/17/2008 11:20:38 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
What rights do those in Iran have, The Palestinian territories, Sudan... all of the various places that are under Sharia Law...
Better yet, what rights will you have after they invade us, take over Washington, burn our constitution and declare Sharia law within our own country?
And don't give me that "strawman" argument, it is possible and it could happen, that is why we have to get ahead of the terrorist and not treat them like criminals after the crime has already been commited.
We can play "what if" all day and never reach a consensus on that issue, but "what ifs" don't negate that imprisoning people without charge for indefinite periods of time is immoral. I don't believe that God wants us to do that because even He tells us very clearly what we are being punished for.
I'll say it again, enemies captured during a time of war are prisoners of war by definition. If they are prisoners of war then the Geneva Convention applies. Just because they would do worse to us is no reason to treat them inhumanely. Besides doesn't the Bible also tell us to do unto others as you would have them do unto you? I don't recall Christ telling people do unto others as they do unto you.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/17/2008 11:39:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
While your analysis is correct, I'm not sure if your conclusion- that "rights" don't exist is.
Do we have free will? Wait wait, don't tell me- you're a Calvinist.
For the record Reformed Theology doesn't deny free will, just what it means in the context of man's abilities or lack thereof...
quote:
But in any case, if free will really does exist, then there's not much of a point to free will unless there is the God-given right to exercise it (and responsibility to do the right thing with it.) And if God gives people certain rights, then those rights should apply universally.
Our founding fathers believed that everybody is endowed with certain rights by their creator, and even if this isn't specifically spelled out in the Bible, it doesn't mean it isn't true. Reason and logic seem to imply that if God didn't want us to have the right to free speech, we wouldn't be able to control our mouths. If we didn't have the right to being treated justly, we wouldn't have had the books of Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, as well as 3/4 of Exodus (which actually do spell things out to ensure fair trials.)
In Exodux, Moses and others put thousands to the sword who used their God-given right to exercise a choice...
Double-edged...
John
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/17/2008 11:43:34 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 217
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
What rights do those in Iran have, The Palestinian territories, Sudan... all of the various places that are under Sharia Law...
Better yet, what rights will you have after they invade us, take over Washington, burn our constitution and declare Sharia law within our own country?
And don't give me that "strawman" argument, it is possible and it could happen, that is why we have to get ahead of the terrorist and not treat them like criminals after the crime has already been commited.
We would have the same rights, because rights come from God.
To claim that rights come from government is to invalidate our declaration of independence.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/17/2008 11:52:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
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From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
What rights do those in Iran have, The Palestinian territories, Sudan... all of the various places that are under Sharia Law...
Better yet, what rights will you have after they invade us, take over Washington, burn our constitution and declare Sharia law within our own country?
And don't give me that "strawman" argument, it is possible and it could happen, that is why we have to get ahead of the terrorist and not treat them like criminals after the crime has already been commited.
We would have the same rights, because rights come from God.
To claim that rights come from government is to invalidate our declaration of independence.
Do you believe that God grants people the right to worship whatever god they so choose?
John
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 12:15:34 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 217
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I do not believe that humans have the right to regulate the worship/religion of other humans.
Before God, an appeal to "rights" is useless. Rights are defined to protect us from earthly power, not divine power.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 7:53:18 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I do not believe that humans have the right to regulate the worship/religion of other humans.
Before God, an appeal to "rights" is useless. Rights are defined to protect us from earthly power, not divine power.
Why did God command the Israelites to basically clean-out and annihilate the inhabitants of Canaan as they took possession?
Just a thought that popped in. However, it is yet another slippery slope.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 8:13:00 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 217
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
I do not believe that humans have the right to regulate the worship/religion of other humans.
Before God, an appeal to "rights" is useless. Rights are defined to protect us from earthly power, not divine power.
Why did God command the Israelites to basically clean-out and annihilate the inhabitants of Canaan as they took possession?
Just a thought that popped in. However, it is yet another slippery slope.
Because God has the right. God can do what God wants.
I think it had better be CHRYSTAL clear though if we think God is telling us to do something like that.
Do you think God commanded us to hold people without telling them why? (I never got that message)
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 8:41:44 AM
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freakofnature
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quote:
Do you think God commanded us to hold people without telling them why? (I never got that message)
Maybe you called in sick that day? Or Maybe God just spoke to George W. Bush about it? IDK! But, yeah correct, rights come from God! But you'll have the right to worship our Christian God, in hiding, otherwise, they'll lop off your head.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 9:05:52 AM
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PhunkD
Posts: 217
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The "they" you speak of may not be the people locked up at Guantanamo Bay. Since nobody knows why many of them are being held, it's anybodies guess.
When a person or governement "lops of a head," or promises to, they forfeit some rights--but before we deprive anybody of a right, there has to be cause.
Habeas Corpus is one of the most basic of rights. We can lock up these people that we fear, as long as we tell them why, an give them a chance to answer those charges. Recognizing this right will not put us at risk.
Finally, the threat of death should not be frightening to Christians, and it certainly should not mean that we behave immorally. Loving my enemy means affording him the rights I claim for myself, even if it leads to my own death.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 9:20:29 AM
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relady
Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Habeas Corpus is one of the most basic of rights. We can lock up these people that we fear, as long as we tell them why, an give them a chance to answer those charges. Recognizing this right will not put us at risk. VERY well put!
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 9:30:59 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 856
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quote:
there has to be cause.
...'Cause they kill you.
quote:
as long as we tell them why,
...'Cause they kill you
quote:
Loving my enemy means affording him the rights I claim for myself, even if it leads to my own death.
Those at Guantanamo Bay are ones found on a battlefield. Not uniformed but found to be supporting those who kill you! Death I am not affraid of, it is the not seeing my children raised in the admonition of the Lord that I am affraid of. It is not seeing my daughters walk the isle on their wedding day, not seeing my son play in the NFL... Because if we give the terrorist and inch they will take it and more then you can forget rights because in Sharia, there are no exceptions... NONE and that ain't freedom. There will be no walking the isle because marriages will be arranged, no NFL for my son, none of those things. But above all, there WILL BE NO FREEDOM! I don't get what it is you don't understand. I love my enemy, but we are also required biblically to protect ourselves and our families. Just because we have to lock up some bad guys and kill some terrorist don't mean we don't love them. If they want to stop all of the killings and the war efforts, then they should cease and decist, but somehow I doubt they will do that.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 9:34:48 AM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
quote:
there has to be cause.
...'Cause they kill you.
quote:
as long as we tell them why,
...'Cause they kill you
quote:
Loving my enemy means affording him the rights I claim for myself, even if it leads to my own death.
Those at Guantanamo Bay are ones found on a battlefield. Not uniformed but found to be supporting those who kill you! Death I am not affraid of, it is the not seeing my children raised in the admonition of the Lord that I am affraid of. It is not seeing my daughters walk the isle on their wedding day, not seeing my son play in the NFL... Because if we give the terrorist and inch they will take it and more then you can forget rights because in Sharia, there are no exceptions... NONE and that ain't freedom. There will be no walking the isle because marriages will be arranged, no NFL for my son, none of those things. But above all, there WILL BE NO FREEDOM! I don't get what it is you don't understand. I love my enemy, but we are also required biblically to protect ourselves and our families. Just because we have to lock up some bad guys and kill some terrorist don't mean we don't love them. If they want to stop all of the killings and the war efforts, then they should cease and decist, but somehow I doubt they will do that.
Well said, Freak! 
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 9:39:36 AM
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relady
Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Those at Guantanamo Bay are ones found on a battlefield. I believe it has been pointed out more than once that not all the detainees were captured by our military. We have no way of knowing how many until and unless these people are brought to charges. I believe the SC ruling will allow this to take place.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 9:39:48 AM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
How 'bout completing that quote. "They're unlawful combatants, and the very definition of evil."
How about you not skipping the quote, "But the fact is that many of the detainees have never even been charged with anything."
If they are "unlawful combatants," then why are no charges brought against them?
quote:
The Magna Carta gave rights to unlawful combatants and terrorista???!!
The Magna Carta is the basis for habeus corpus and due process. Without these, justice is no more than vigilantism punishing as many innocent victims as truly guilty offenders. But even the guilty should not be subject to torture and human abasement.
Do you believe that human life is sacrosanct, or do you not?
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 9:59:07 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
quote:
there has to be cause.
...'Cause they kill you.
quote:
as long as we tell them why,
...'Cause they kill you
quote:
Loving my enemy means affording him the rights I claim for myself, even if it leads to my own death.
Those at Guantanamo Bay are ones found on a battlefield. Not uniformed but found to be supporting those who kill you! Death I am not affraid of, it is the not seeing my children raised in the admonition of the Lord that I am affraid of. It is not seeing my daughters walk the isle on their wedding day, not seeing my son play in the NFL... Because if we give the terrorist and inch they will take it and more then you can forget rights because in Sharia, there are no exceptions... NONE and that ain't freedom. There will be no walking the isle because marriages will be arranged, no NFL for my son, none of those things. But above all, there WILL BE NO FREEDOM! I don't get what it is you don't understand. I love my enemy, but we are also required biblically to protect ourselves and our families. Just because we have to lock up some bad guys and kill some terrorist don't mean we don't love them. If they want to stop all of the killings and the war efforts, then they should cease and decist, but somehow I doubt they will do that.
The ends do not justify the means.
Why not just lock up anyone we capture indefinitely? After all that prostitute on the street corner doesn't have any rights. She's a criminal and commiting unlawful acts. Same with the sneak thief, the drug dealer, and the list goes on. Why treat any of them humanely? They are just scum after all. And after we get all them we can lock up people with political views we don't like. They aren't being good, patriotic Americas after all. We wouldn't have to tell them a thing, because no one has the right to know why they're being put in prison.
It's a very slippery slope we're skirting the edge of, and it's depressing to see Christians defending the administration's position. We cannot allow ourselves to lose our God given conscience in this matter.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 10:09:00 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 856
Joined: 1/17/2008
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quote:
and it's depressing to see Christians defending the administration's position.
Sorry I'm not as Christian as you? Get me that phone number directly to God's desk, maybe I'll just ask him myself but I.. seem...to have misplaced...now, where was that phone number... Help me out here jkdjr25... you got that number???
quote:
After all that prostitute on the street corner doesn't have any rights. She's a criminal and commiting unlawful acts.
And correct, she is commiting unlawful acts?
quote:
Same with the sneak thief, the drug dealer, and the list goes on. Why treat any of them humanely?
???? Yes, of course they get locked up, unlawfull acts that they have commited.
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It's a very slippery slope we're skirting the edge of,
That Bridge goes two directions my friend. It is a slippery slope. If you want to just lay down and take it then that is up to you. Why is it that Americans have to be the ones to just take it???? We have to be the ones to lay down our arms, so you go ahead. Leave me out of it... And if this is your particular version of Christianity, then this conversation is going to go nowhere...
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 10:10:50 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 1951
Joined: 9/23/2005
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quote:
It's a very slippery slope we're skirting the edge of, and it's depressing to see Christians defending the administration's position. We cannot allow ourselves to lose our God given conscience in this matter.
It's also depressing to see Christians cheering a move that will only embolden our enemies, make the WOT harder to wage, and result in the deaths of more Americans.....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 10:23:32 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
quote:
and it's depressing to see Christians defending the administration's position.
Sorry I'm not as Christian as you? Get me that phone number directly to God's desk, maybe I'll just ask him myself but I.. seem...to have misplaced...now, where was that phone number... Help me out here jkdjr25... you got that number???
quote:
After all that prostitute on the street corner doesn't have any rights. She's a criminal and commiting unlawful acts.
And correct, she is commiting unlawful acts?
quote:
Same with the sneak thief, the drug dealer, and the list goes on. Why treat any of them humanely?
???? Yes, of course they get locked up, unlawfull acts that they have commited.
quote:
It's a very slippery slope we're skirting the edge of,
That Bridge goes two directions my friend. It is a slippery slope. If you want to just lay down and take it then that is up to you. Why is it that Americans have to be the ones to just take it???? We have to be the ones to lay down our arms, so you go ahead. Leave me out of it... And if this is your particular version of Christianity, then this conversation is going to go nowhere...
The difference is that we tell the prostitute, the sneak thief and the drug dealer precisely why they're being locked up. We don't treat them inhumanely either.
No one has ever said that America should "lie down and take it". We are saying that we should abide by the rule of law. Some kind of law HAS to apply to the Gitmo prisoners. As they are enemies captured during a time of war they are prisoners of war by definition. As such the Geneva Convention applies and they have the right of Habeas Corpus. What other law would you use to put them on trial?
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 10:28:56 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
It's a very slippery slope we're skirting the edge of, and it's depressing to see Christians defending the administration's position. We cannot allow ourselves to lose our God given conscience in this matter.
It's also depressing to see Christians cheering a move that will only embolden our enemies, make the WOT harder to wage, and result in the deaths of more Americans.....
You DO realize that you can't kill an idea with bullets and bombs right? The War on Terror, as it has been called, is a war of ideas and ideals. You can't kill either one with any weapon of man. You have to fight ideas with ideas. Live Christianity everyday, and mean it.
The ends do not justify the means. We cannot treat people inhumanely and then expect everyone to agree with what we're doing. We have to do the moral thing, regardless of the cost because that's the only way to truly be better than our enemies.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 10:37:57 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2543
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
It's a very slippery slope we're skirting the edge of, and it's depressing to see Christians defending the administration's position. We cannot allow ourselves to lose our God given conscience in this matter.
It's also depressing to see Christians cheering a move that will only embolden our enemies, make the WOT harder to wage, and result in the deaths of more Americans.....
What's depressing to me is to see how Americans are cheering the slow death of the Bill of Rights!!!
The WOT is an unwinnable war without end. How about winning our war on the things that truly terrorize us in the US: the theives, rapists, gang members, robbers, pedophiles, etc. But I guess that's another unwinnable war!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 11:14:28 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2003
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
What rights do those in Iran have, The Palestinian territories, Sudan... all of the various places that are under Sharia Law...
Better yet, what rights will you have after they invade us, take over Washington, burn our constitution and declare Sharia law within our own country?
And don't give me that "strawman" argument, it is possible and it could happen, that is why we have to get ahead of the terrorist and not treat them like criminals after the crime has already been commited.
Do you want our government to practice Sharia law? If so, you could always move to Iran.
If you want our government to follow a literal interpretation of the Constitution as we generally have for the past 200 years, though, you have to apply the bill of rights to people who haven't been detained as POWs.
quote:
In Exodux, Moses and others put thousands to the sword who used their God-given right to exercise a choice...
Double-edged...
John
And there are also consequences for exercising these rights improperly. But it's God's job to ensure those consequences. I don't see God ordering us to keep these prisoners in Guantanamo without trials, so well, their God-given rights still apply.
quote:
Do you believe that God grants people the right to worship whatever god they so choose?
John
God grants us the right to reject him. And there are God-given consequences for exercising that right improperly. But obviously, if we did not have the right to reject God, we wouldn't be able to.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 11:23:53 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2003
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
It's a very slippery slope we're skirting the edge of, and it's depressing to see Christians defending the administration's position. We cannot allow ourselves to lose our God given conscience in this matter.
It's also depressing to see Christians cheering a move that will only embolden our enemies, make the WOT harder to wage, and result in the deaths of more Americans.....
I think the question is whether ideology or expedience should win, and in general, it's natural for Christians to favor ideology of practicality.
There are a lot of things that Jesus teaches that don't appear very practical or expedient, but we follow them, because we know they're the best thing to do, and we can still understand their ultimate goal.
When it comes to treating others with the same human dignity we expect to be treated with under our own constitution, I don't think it takes a ThD to figure out that this helps us win the ideological war on terror.
Those of us who believe the vast majority of the War on Terror involves bullets and explosions (and not ideas) are trying to have us fight a 21st century war using an early 20th century strategy. The SC's decision goes a long way in helping us fight the ideological war; it says that we are a country that practices the Enlightenment values that it preaches.
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RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right - 6/18/2008 11:30:48 AM
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tafkam
Posts: 1951
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
You DO realize that you can't kill an idea with bullets and bombs right?
Oh, I don't know, we defeated Hitler's and Hirohito's (sp/) ideas and ideologies with bullets and bombs just fine.....
quote:
The WOT is an unwinnable war without end. How about winning our war on the things that truly terrorize us in the US: the theives, rapists, gang members, robbers, pedophiles, etc. But I guess that's another unwinnable war!
More leftist gloom and doom.....with an outlook like that, I'm sure glad you don't work for me!
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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