RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (Full Version)

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cow451 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 11:18:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: cow451
This administration has time and again shown it's lack of competency in carrying out the WOT.


No attacks on US soil since 9/11; the administration is doing something right.

Thanks
RC


4,000 American casualties in Iraq, not counting US citizens killed or wounded in Iraq. I do not call that success.




scutus -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 11:27:18 AM)

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This is quite true though I haven't heard of a percentage so high. There is more than enough to convince me that enough are in Gitmo that have no business being detained and no due process to challenge it. THAT is my problem with Gitmo.


I've heard higher. From this report:
quote:


Seton Hall found the Government’s claim that those detained at Guantánamo
were the “worst of the worst”6 to be at odds with the Department of Defense’s own
evidence. Among Seton Hall’s findings were that: Fifty-five percent (55%) of detainees
were not alleged to have committed any hostile acts against the United States or its allies;
only eight percent (8%) of detainees were characterized as al-Qa`ida fighters; and five
percent (5%) of detainees were captured by United States forces, whereas eighty-six
percent (86%) were captured by either Pakistan or the Northern Alliance and handed over
to the United States at a time when the United States offered large bounties for capture of
suspected enemies.

quote:


1. West Point confirms Seton Hall’s finding that ninety-five percent (95%) of
those detained as enemy combatants were not alleged to have been captured
by United States forces.
2. This fact, confirmed by West Point, directly contradicts the executive branch’s
contention that Guantánamo was populated by individuals who were “picked
up on the battlefield, fighting American forces, trying to kill American
forces.”
3. Upon further examination, the data shows that only twenty-one (21) of the
516 detainees in Guantànamo are accused of ever having been on a battlefield.
4. Only one (1) detainee in Guantànamo was alleged to have been captured by
United States forces on a battlefield.
5. These new battlefield statistics are corroborated by Department of Defense
data revealing that (a) fifty-five percent (55%) of those detained were never
accused of committing a hostile act; (b) ninety-two percent (92%) were never
accused of being a fighter; and (c) sixty percent (60%) were accused not of
being members of al-Qa`ida or the Taliban, but merely of being “associated”
with those groups.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 1:13:14 PM)

The Supreme Court gets it right? The only opinion on the Supreme court that had an inkling of what is at stake here was Justice Roberts and Scalia. In a scathing dissent Roberts points out:

Today the Court strikes down as inadequate the most generous set of procedural protections ever afforded aliens detained by this country as enemy combatants. The political branches crafted these procedures amidst an ongoing military conflict, after much careful investigation and thorough debate. The Court rejects them today out of hand, without bothering to say what due process rights the detainees possess, without explaining how the statute fails to vindicate those rights, and before a single petitioner has even attempted to avail himself of the law’s operation. And to what effect? The majority merely replaces a review system designed by the people’s representatives with a set of shapeless procedures to be defined by federal courts at some future date. One cannot help but think, after surveying the modest practical results of the majority’s ambitious opinion, that this decision is not really about the detainees at all, but about control of federal policy regarding enemy combatants.

In short, the court has gutted a program put in place by congress to deal with detainees in response to a previous court ruling, and has replaced it with nothing, except for endless review by the lower courts - which simply makes the President's, Congress' and the Courts jobs harder in response to dealing with terrorists. Scalia though goes farther - perhaps farther than any justice ever has in detailing what the consequences will be:

America is at war with radical Islamists. The enemy began by killing Americans and American allies abroad: 241 at the Marine barracks in Lebanon, 19 at the Khobar Towers in Dhahran, 224 at our embassies in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi, and 17 on the USS Cole in Yemen. See National Commission on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States, The 9/11 Commission Report, pp. 60–61, 70, 190 (2004). On September 11, 2001, the enemy brought the battle to American soil, killing 2,749 at the Twin Towers in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon in Washington, D. C., and 40 in Pennsylvania. See id., at 552, n. 9. It has threatened further attacks against our homeland; one need only walk about buttressed and barricaded Washington, or board a plane anywhere in the country, to know that the threat is a serious one. Our Armed Forces are now in the field against the enemy, in Afghanistan and Iraq. Last week, 13 of our countrymen in arms were killed.

The game of bait-and-switch that today’s opinion plays upon the Nation’s Commander in Chief will make the war harder on us. It will almost certainly cause more Americans to be killed. That consequence would be tolerable if necessary to preserve a time-honored legal principle vital to our constitutional Republic. But it is this Court’s blatant abandonment of such a principle that produces the decision today. The President relied on our settled precedent in Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U. S. 763 (1950), when he established the prison at Guantanamo Bay for enemy aliens. Citing that case, the President’s Office of Legal Cite as: 553 U. S. ____ (2008) 3 SCALIA, J., dissenting Counsel advised him “that the great weight of legal authority indicates that a federal district court could not properly exercise habeas jurisdiction over an alien detained at [Guantanamo Bay].” Memorandum from Patrick F. Philbin and John C. Yoo, Deputy Assistant Attorneys General, Office of Legal Counsel, to William J. Haynes II, General Counsel, Dept. of Defense (Dec. 28, 2001).

Had the law been otherwise, the military surely would not have transported prisoners there, but would have kept them in Afghanistan, transferred them to another of our foreign military bases, or turned them over to allies for detention. Those other facilities might well have been worse for the detainees themselves. In the long term, then, the Court’s decision today accomplishes little, except perhaps to reduce the well-being of enemy combatants that the Court ostensibly seeks to protect.


So this ruling gets more Americans killed, and has the effect of making worse (and probably killing) the situation of wartime detainees. Anyone who thinks this is a 'good' decision simply wants to see more people die, including detainees.




Peter_Gunn -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 1:15:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

The Supreme Court gets it right? The only opinion on the Supreme court that had an inkling of what is at stake here was Justice Roberts and Scalia. In a scathing dissent Roberts points out:



Thomas also dissented...don't forget Thomas!




cow451 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 1:17:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

The Supreme Court gets it right? The only opinion on the Supreme court that had an inkling of what is at stake here was Justice Roberts and Scalia. In a scathing dissent Roberts points out:



Thomas also dissented...don't forget Thomas!


Thomas and Roberts. Two intellectual giants. they didn't read post #77 either.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 1:20:06 PM)

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Thomas also dissented...don't forget Thomas!


So did Lito - and good for them, we have a least four sane judges - but they didn't write out their dissents.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 1:21:32 PM)

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Thomas and Roberts. Two intellectual giants. they didn't read post #77 either.


That is because it is irrelevent to the fact that the left just guaranteed the deaths of more people in this war, including potential detainees.




rlj -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 1:54:37 PM)

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It has threatened further attacks against our homeland; one need only walk about buttressed and barricaded Washington, or board a plane anywhere in the country, to know that the threat is a serious one.


I became convinced of the seriousness when Bush tried to open the floodgates to the Illegals.

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Today the Court strikes down as inadequate the most generous set of procedural protections ever afforded aliens detained by this country as enemy combatants.


Sounds effecient "Hey, want to make some money? Go tell me to arrest someone and send them to Gitmo".
quote:


Johnson v. Eisentrager, 339 U. S. 763 (1950), when he established the prison at Guantanamo Bay for enemy aliens. Citing that case, the President’s Office of Legal Cite as: 553 U. S. ____ (2008) 3 SCALIA, J., dissenting Counsel advised him “that the great weight of legal authority indicates that a federal district court could not properly exercise habeas jurisdiction over an alien detained at [Guantanamo Bay].”


I don't see any relevance comparing Germans captured from Submarines in American territory to men who were turned over to a narc who got bought out buy the military half a world away. Once again what did Salim Hamdan do that justified going to Gitmo for several years?

quote:

America is at war with radical Islamists. The enemy began by killing Americans and American allies abroad: 241 at the Marine barracks in Lebanon, 19 at the Khobar Towers in Dhahran, 224 at our embassies in Dar es Salaam and Nairobi, and 17 on the USS Cole in Yemen.


So who is the enemy? All Muslims? Hezbollah Al-Hejaz? Hebollah? AQ? Can someone please name an enemy that Scalia mentions that has something to do with Iraq?

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without bothering to say what due process rights the detainees possess, without explaining how the statute fails to vindicate those rights, and before a single petitioner has even attempted to avail himself of the law’s operation.


That is the flaw in this ruling. Without that comment I was going to recommend Scalia join Sandra since there is something making his usual brilliant brain act senile or something.




cow451 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 1:57:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Thomas and Roberts. Two intellectual giants. they didn't read post #77 either.


That is because it is irrelevent to the fact that the left just guaranteed the deaths of more people in this war, including potential detainees.

Depends on whether we pay bounties on warm bodies, no questions asked.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:10:25 PM)

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Depends on whether we pay bounties on warm bodies, no questions asked.


Cold bodies, actually, which would be one logical result of this ruling.




jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:19:29 PM)

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Depends on whether we pay bounties on warm bodies, no questions asked.


Cold bodies, actually, which would be one logical result of this ruling.


Something strikes me as kind of odd about this whole debate. I've seen many conservative voices on this site naysaying this ruling. Now correct me if I'm wrong but isn't conservatism supposed to be about less government power? Is anyone really comfortable giving the government the power to hold people without charge or trial for an indefinite period of time? I know I don't want them to have that kind of power, because I understand that it WILL be abused. Power corrupts after all.

When did doing the moral thing, no matter how hard it may be, become passe?

I advocate doing what is right, both morally and legally. It's not easy. The easy thing would be to ignore the basic human rights of the prisoners, which is what we've already been doing much to my dismay.

Despite egregious claims from some this does not mean that people like me want America to fall, or that we support terrorists. That's a strawman argument at best. Anyone with even the smallest amount of common sense know's that's untrue.

What troubles me the most though is what I'm hearing from opponents of this ruling. "More Americans will be killed" and other language of fear. Isn't trying to make people afraid so they'll do what you want the very definition of terrorism?

Just some things to think on.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:19:31 PM)

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I became convinced of the seriousness when Bush tried to open the floodgates to the Illegals.


Irrelevant to the ruling.

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Sounds effecient "Hey, want to make some money? Go tell me to arrest someone and send them to Gitmo".


Now it will be, “Hey, want to make some money? Bring me the bodies of terrorists” apparently a result the left prefers.

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Once again what did Salim Hamdan do that justified going to Gitmo for several years?


Admitted personal body guard to Osama Bin Laden not enough for you?

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So who is the enemy? All Muslims? Hezbollah Al-Hejaz? Hebollah? AQ? Can someone please name an enemy that Scalia mentions that has something to do with Iraq?


Gitmo isn’t about ‘Iraq’, it’s about the terrorist war against the US, which you seem to believe doesn’t exist.

quote:

That is the flaw in this ruling. Without that comment I was going to recommend Scalia join Sandra since there is something making his usual brilliant brain act senile or something.


He is the same age as Kennedy, and significantly more brilliant in his response than Kennedy was in this mess of a ruling.




cow451 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:21:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Depends on whether we pay bounties on warm bodies, no questions asked.


Cold bodies, actually, which would be one logical result of this ruling.


baloney. Most of these people were noncombatants and posed no particular threat. If we were so concerned about their welfare, we wouldn't put them in a prison with an indefinite stay and no due process. You know, one big loser in all this is John Lindt, the American caught up in the fighting. As the facts have come to light, he was probably about as much a threat to the US as Drew Carey.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:28:48 PM)

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baloney. Most of these people were noncombatants and posed no particular threat. If we were so concerned about their welfare, we wouldn't put them in a prison with an indefinite stay and no due process. You know, one big loser in all this is John Lindt, the American caught up in the fighting. As the facts have come to light, he was probably about as much a threat to the US as Drew Carey.


You seem not to understand what Scalia said. If we can't bring them home to question them and find out how involved they are in terrorist operations they willbe dealt with elsewhere - and many more people will die.




Peter_Gunn -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:31:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Sounds effecient "Hey, want to make some money? Go tell me to arrest someone and send them to Gitmo".


Now it will be, “Hey, want to make some money? Bring me the bodies of terrorists” apparently a result the left prefers.



Hey, I'm on the right and cold bodies of terrorists sound okay to me! And I'd be willing to pay someone for it, too. A much better way to spend my tax dollars, if you ask me.




jkdjr25 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:33:09 PM)

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ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

baloney. Most of these people were noncombatants and posed no particular threat. If we were so concerned about their welfare, we wouldn't put them in a prison with an indefinite stay and no due process. You know, one big loser in all this is John Lindt, the American caught up in the fighting. As the facts have come to light, he was probably about as much a threat to the US as Drew Carey.


You seem not to understand what Scalia said. If we can't bring them home to question them and find out how involved they are in terrorist operations they willbe dealt with elsewhere - and many more people will die.


Then charge the prisoners with something. Holding them indefinitely without charge is both immoral and evil. It's a violation of basic human rights.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:33:33 PM)

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Hey, I'm on the right and cold bodies of terrorists sound okay to me! And I'd be willing to pay someone for it, too. A much better way to spend my tax dollars, if you ask me.


I have no problem with dead terrorist either, but it's also going to limit our ability to gain intelligence from these people as well.




Jeff_from_Kentucky -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 2:59:59 PM)

As a retired military person I can say with certainty that the detainees at Gitmo are NOT POW's and therefore are not protected by the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Convention is and always has been a monumental failure anyway because no nation has every abided by all of the terms of the Convention. I wrote a thesis on this very subject a few years back.

That being said, I also believe that the detainees do NOT have the same rights as American citizens. They are not POW's and they are not citizens, they are terrorists. This classification is a relatively new phenomenon, the past 40 years or so. IMO, terrorists do not have ANY rights. They forfeited any rights they may have had when they decided to kill unarmed, innocent people.

As to the police searching of vehicles, I work for a police department so I have some knowledge of this as well. Police can search a vehicle with the permission of the driver or if the driver or any passenger is placed under arrest. Neither of these situations requires a warrant. These are also the ONLY circumstances under which a vehicle can be searched without a warrant - permission is granted or a search incidental to arrest is made.

Occasionally, if the driver or any passenger in the car is acting in a belligerent manner toward the officer or officers, the officer(s) can and sometimes do place the individuals under arrest for disturbing the peace, or some other charge. Once the arrest is made, a search incidental to arrest can be made without a warrant.

The thing is, if you sit calmly and cooperate with the officer, most of the time you will be on your way in a few minutes. It is rare that officers will pull someone over for no reason at all, though it does happen occasionally.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 3:03:03 PM)

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Then charge the prisoners with something. Holding them indefinitely without charge is both immoral and evil. It's a violation of basic human rights.


You don't 'charge' people captured on a field of battle during a war.

You kill them or capture them - those are your choices, which do you prefer?




cow451 -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 3:05:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

baloney. Most of these people were noncombatants and posed no particular threat. If we were so concerned about their welfare, we wouldn't put them in a prison with an indefinite stay and no due process. You know, one big loser in all this is John Lindt, the American caught up in the fighting. As the facts have come to light, he was probably about as much a threat to the US as Drew Carey.


You seem not to understand what Scalia said. If we can't bring them home to question them and find out how involved they are in terrorist operations they willbe dealt with elsewhere - and many more people will die.

And if the administration had actually done that in some organized way, this case would not have been before the court. The turning point was the inability of the administration to devfelop a process to do that. The administration believed they had no reason to account for the containment of prisoners. Again, the administration has nobody to blame. The solution will be to get back into Congress and hash out some due process. Since they messed it up so badly, the White house squandered away the credibility and public confidence that is needed to push something through congress that will make legal sense.

Again, the Supremes did not strike down the notion of holding combatants (contrary to the hystrionics), just the idea that it can be done indefinitely with no opportunity for a prisoner to bve faced with evidence. War criminals are not a new think. There's an International Court, there were war trials after WWII. It's not like the administration had to invent the wheel. There are plenty of models to use including the Military's.




Jhud -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 3:15:38 PM)

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And if the administration had actually done that in some organized way, this case would not have been before the court. The turning point was the inability of the administration to devfelop a process to do that. The administration believed they had no reason to account for the containment of prisoners. Again, the administration has nobody to blame. The solution will be to get back into Congress and hash out some due process. Since they messed it up so badly, the White house squandered away the credibility and public confidence that is needed to push something through congress that will make legal sense.


First off, it is important to note the Supreme Court is here gutting a Congressional law the was in response to a previous Supreme Court ruling – and so the court is being schizophrenic here.

Secondly, this will not get anyone out of Gitmo, nor clarify the fate of the prisoners therein – simply put them on an endless merry-go-round of court appeals and responses, slowing down our efforts, but doing nothing to solve the problems.

And lastly, the administration did what it did based on previous precedent Johnson v. Eisentrager specifically, and it is the court that came up with a whole new set of rules out of thin air.

quote:

Again, the Supremes did not strike down the notion of holding combatants (contrary to the hystrionics), just the idea that it can be done indefinitely with no opportunity for a prisoner to bve faced with evidence. War criminals are not a new think. There's an International Court, there were war trials after WWII. It's not like the administration had to invent the wheel. There are plenty of models to use including the Military's.


And again, giving the choice of bringing captured war time prisoners home to an endless series of court cases, or giving them over to a foreign government (or simply asking to see their dead bodies) , the military, for the sake of winning this war, have to do the latter – and the blood of those who die as a result will be on the head of five justices and those who pushed for such measures.




PhunkD -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 3:24:27 PM)

Nobody answered my question that I asked yesterday. Is there any constitutional reason to believe that the constitution does not apply to these people? It is the "law of the land," and Gitmo seems to be our land (we certainly are not following Cuban law there)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PhunkD

To those who say the constitution does not apply to non-citizens: On what do you base this opinion? I cannot find this in the constitution.

Second question: where do rights come from? I believe that the declaration of independence got it right: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are unalienable rights endowed by our creator. Maybe this reality trumps any constitutional argument.

I understand that a person may forfeit these rights, but I don't believe that it should be without due process.




PhunkD -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 3:27:26 PM)

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Secondly, this will not get anyone out of Gitmo, nor clarify the fate of the prisoners therein – simply put them on an endless merry-go-round of court appeals and responses, slowing down our efforts, but doing nothing to solve the problems.



What ARE our efforts with Gitmo, anyway?


quote:

the blood of those who die as a result will be on the head of five justices and those who pushed for such measures.


or perhaps on those who started this "war"




tafkam -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 3:28:04 PM)

They are not American citizens, and as they are not, they are not guaranteed rights under our Constitution....




PhunkD -> RE: Supreme Court Gets It Right (6/13/2008 3:31:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

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Then charge the prisoners with something. Holding them indefinitely without charge is both immoral and evil. It's a violation of basic human rights.


You don't 'charge' people captured on a field of battle during a war.

You kill them or capture them - those are your choices, which do you prefer?


If they were captured on a field of battle during a war, they would be prisoners of war and subject to those rules. Bush decided that they are not.

A captured person still has rights. It is still wrong to kill a person that is not a threat to you, even in war, even if it is legally inconvenient to capture them.

Regardless, we need to make our decisions based on what is right, and what our laws say--not on what is convenient.

Conservatives used to say things like that all the time.




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