RE: Few going to heaven (Full Version)

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SonInMe1 -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/17/2008 7:01:29 PM)

It seems there are two camps.

Those who believe the few are those who are not unsaved.

Those who believe the few are those who are the "good" christians.



rcjames -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/17/2008 7:20:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

It seems there are two camps.

Those who believe the few are those who are not unsaved.

Those who believe the few are those who are the "good" christians.


The "Camp" I am concerned about is the "Many" that Christ says think they are going to Heaven, but are not.

(Mat 7:21) Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

This "Camp" really burdens me for most of the Church just says "Its OK, just live as you wish, God's grace covers all".

But Scripture says;

(Rom 6:1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

(Rom 6:2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

and Jesus said; "Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

This is a sincer burden that I carry.

Thanks
RC



AboundinginHisGrace -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/17/2008 7:57:56 PM)

I think there will be a whole lot of people who are not Christians that will die and go to hell. I mean look at the world. But I do think people can have assurance of salvation. Faith/Belief/Repentance in Jesus Christ and not of anything you have done, merits salvation. If you have truly done this you WILL NOT BE TURNED AWAY. The people who will be turned away are those that didn't do that. Some might have said Lord help me with this, in a time of trouble, but haven't trusted him as their savior. But if you are trusting in Christ (truly trusting) you be in heaven and be able to worship the TRUE GOD, I AM THAT I AM for eternity.



Qtman -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/17/2008 8:49:25 PM)

The Bible plainly teaches that the way is straight and narrow is the gate that leads to heaven and few will find it. But, few is not defined. There is not a definitive number of the few. It is not 144,000 as proclaimed by some. THe term few here is relative. There are millions of people on the earth so a few could be in the millions. The few being relative to the whole population.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/18/2008 7:59:28 AM)

What if...

the life we live after salvation does not effect our being saved...but does affect our eternity in heaven.

Treasures.

Leadership positions.

As I understand the bible, these are earned here, by good works.

Maybe, if we are saved, our good works do not keep our salvation, but they define our heavenly, positions.

Now, I also believe if you are saved you will exhibit good works....I just don;t think every christian can do every good work. Some of us...just ain't that good. Not all of us are cut out for every good work.

Some of us need more maturing and some of us are just plain...dim.

So, to say there is a template of actions a christian has to be a christian..is over simplifying.

I think the few are the ones who are saved...not just the ones we notice doing good works.

I also wonder..are the ones who Jesdus tells He never knew...are these people who truly believed they wqere saved...or are they people who liked to present themselves as something they are not and are just trying to con Jesus...like they have conned everyone else in their lives



rcjames -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/18/2008 10:17:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Now, I also believe if you are saved you will exhibit good works....


So then would you consider the following to be true;

If one is not doing good works, then that would be indicative that they are not saved.

(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Thanks
RC



armydude -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/18/2008 10:18:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Now, I also believe if you are saved you will exhibit good works....


So then would you consider the following to be true;

If one is not doing good works, then that would be indicative that they are not saved.

(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Thanks
RC
It's a pretty good indicator... Not foolproof, but a good indicator.



Godddy -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/18/2008 11:25:57 AM)

Salvation is a gift, God gave His only begotten son. The gift He gave was His son that through Him we might be saved. The word [might,] suggest to me that we all are not going to be saved, even though Jesus died for the whole world.
Jesus in the Beatitudes, Matt:5 sums up for us, what He is looking for, and the kind of people who will enter the narrow gates of Heaven.
If you talk to people one on one or stand on the stage preaching, the message of salvation its still powerful.
The one person you preach to may some day be another Billy Graham,
Don't think for one minute, you are not as powerful as the person on stage, in God's kingdom we are all the same.
To be a powerful Christian for Christ we must first learn about Jesus, then we must learn who we are in Him.
We are chosen, God has elected you and me, To carry His love message to the world.
Don't worry were to go who to talk to God's got that all worked out already, you will know. Sure some people get upset. so what you aren't looking at their broken hearts, God is.
Read the Beatitudes again, Ask God to give you a revelation of its true meaning, its powerful.



bzirk -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/18/2008 11:38:43 AM)

I love John Piper's treatment of the Beatitudes:

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/BySeries/22/

edited for forums blur. [8D]



ChristianCommando -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/18/2008 1:44:06 PM)

I beg to differ that our life lived after recieving Salvation has no bearing on keeping Salvation.

Heb. 6:4-6 clearly shows Hebrew Jews who were first raised sacrificing animals before Christ's time, changed over to following Jesus while here, but shortly after Jesus ascended to Heaven, they returned to sacrificing animals.

4- "For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift, and were made partakersof the Holy Ghost- (Gift of the Holy Ghost), 5- And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6- IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."

This clearly shows, after recieving Salvation, a person cannot just live any way they want afterwards and still be kept by God. King Saul of Old Test. fame is a prime example of this.

God called and annointed King Saul, but he went against God trying to kill David. then Saul did more against God and finally the last straw, was saul seeking that witch out for wanting to know future events to come.

God chastised Saul off and on thru this whole procession, to give saul a chance to repent and turn fully back to God. He never did. so, after several contacts with the witch, God released saul to the Devil and Saul died thru suicide. And in the New test. listings of Old Test Patriarchs, Saul is not named.

Now, saved and reborn children can live without getting involved in worldly activities, but also not do much for service for God either. I Cor. 3:13-15, shows that our works will be tried as by fire- (judged), and if destroyed, we will still enter Heaven by grace thru salvation, but no treasures stored up to show for our lives work on earth. But if any works survive judgement, we will gain treasures and more.

Nothing is impossible to God. Therefore, with the Holy spirit dwelling within us, it will be God, by the Holy Spirit, if we allow him, who will do any good works thru us. That will be God's choice for what He will accomplish thru any of His Children. We need to be the open vessels for Him to do this.

The only ones who won't be saved, are those without Salvation. Regardless wether we see good works demonstrated or not from a True child of God, they will be saved.

The "Template" as mentioned, refers to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and if someone has accepted this in thier heart to be a True child of God.

Every True child of God is at thier own personal level of maturity in God and no one is "just plain dim". Satan will do what he can, to decieve even the very elect of God. And, since all God's children will fall to temptations, during trials, or from attacks, being "dim", must include all of us then.

All people are falable and make mistakes. As Jesus pointed out to the people about the "Sanhedrin"- (religious Leaders) of His day, that they are the blind leading the blind, because they considered themselves above everyone else. They taught in a way to edify themselves, knowing the truth, but never living it as they considered themselves above the "Law".

And rather than teach morality, they taught "legalisim" towards God's Word and had many condemned wrongly. But, we should not condemn those Leaders, for it was Satan who blinded them. On the cross, Jesus declares- "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

So, lets think about and work on our own walk with God first, before speaking down of any other children of God.

Those Jesus did not know- They were unsaved people, thats all, thats it. With the exception of those children of God getting more caught up in worldly activities in these "Last Days", who may here His call to us, but not listen, for being too involved in worldly living or activities. (Parable of 10 Virgins).

there will be True children of God who won't be paying attention to the signs going on around us, so as to be watchful and prepared. Matt. 24:42,44, 25:1-13, plus many more.

What rcjames showed, was just one of many examples teaching us not to jump to conclusions about people without really getting to know them first. For we can only jusge the "root" of the person's influence by the "fruit" they bear. But that does not mean they are fully with or against God all the time.

Any one can be momentarily influenced to follow Satan at times. No one is exempt form that.

think about it.

God Bless!!



SonInMe1 -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/18/2008 6:24:20 PM)

quote:

If one is not doing good works, then that would be indicative that they are not saved.


The problem with this is there has to be a judgement involved. What constitutes a "good work". Are all good works, good works for everyone? Are we not individually gifted, by God, to accomplish the works He has predestined for us to do? ( Sorry, I posted this before I read your entire post RC )

I am not sure you can always look at someone and say...they have good works.

Also, works are not the only sign of being saved., There are fruit as well.

quote:

I beg to differ that our life lived after recieving Salvation has no bearing on keeping Salvation


Prodigal son comes to mind. He went away, but came back.

I would say someone who commits to sin as a "christian" probably never was as RC's fave quote about Jesus saying He never knew them scripture seems to suggest.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 9:47:36 AM)

quote:

4- "For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift, and were made partakersof the Holy Ghost- (Gift of the Holy Ghost), 5- And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6- IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."


But then the question lyes, were they ever saved in the first place?



armydude -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 9:57:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

4- "For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift, and were made partakersof the Holy Ghost- (Gift of the Holy Ghost), 5- And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6- IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."


But then the question lyes, were they ever saved in the first place?
Excellent question. It also raises another question (at least for me). How many people walk down an aisle, cry a few tears on a carpet, shake hands with a preacher, etc. and believe the lie that that makes them saved? Salvation is an inner change. An inner change will show in a person's life. If that change is not showing up, has a change really occurred? I don't think so.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 10:18:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

4- "For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift, and were made partakersof the Holy Ghost- (Gift of the Holy Ghost), 5- And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6- IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."


But then the question lyes, were they ever saved in the first place?
Excellent question. It also raises another question (at least for me). How many people walk down an aisle, cry a few tears on a carpet, shake hands with a preacher, etc. and believe the lie that that makes them saved? Salvation is an inner change. An inner change will show in a person's life. If that change is not showing up, has a change really occurred? I don't think so.


Yes, I agree. John Macarther preaches on that a lot. And while I do not agree with a real lot of his hard stances on things, I do agree with him on that one.



bzirk -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:17:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

4- "For it is IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the Heavenly Gift, and were made partakersof the Holy Ghost- (Gift of the Holy Ghost), 5- And have tasted the good Word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6- IF THEY FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame."


But then the question lyes, were they ever saved in the first place?
Excellent question. It also raises another question (at least for me). How many people walk down an aisle, cry a few tears on a carpet, shake hands with a preacher, etc. and believe the lie that that makes them saved? Salvation is an inner change. An inner change will show in a person's life. If that change is not showing up, has a change really occurred? I don't think so.


Anyone making a profession of faith at any time hopefully understands that it's the result of submission to the Lord. That requires that the truth of God's word be preached. One thing that is not preached enough is how we have nothing to do with our salvation. Too often the implication in sermons about the Gospel is that we can manipulate the Lord.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:28:13 AM)

I see someone preaching not preaching the full gospel message at all. I am reminded of a story I heard back in the 80's about someone who believed in Buddha. He was asked to accepted Jesus into his life, which he gladly complied! After he did so he proudly proclaimed that he now had Buddha and Jesus!



armydude -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:29:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

I see someone preaching not preaching the full gospel message at all. I am reminded of a story I heard back in the 80's about someone who believed in Buddha. He was asked to accepted Jesus into his life, which he gladly complied! After he did so he proudly proclaimed that he now had Buddha and Jesus!
Oy... I would say he missed the point...



humbleinspirit -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:31:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

I see someone preaching not preaching the full gospel message at all. I am reminded of a story I heard back in the 80's about someone who believed in Buddha. He was asked to accepted Jesus into his life, which he gladly complied! After he did so he proudly proclaimed that he now had Buddha and Jesus!
Oy... I would say he missed the point...


Yep, that goes without saying!



bzirk -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:35:28 AM)

Great point, Mike.

Coming to the Lord is not about using Him to help us, but it's about submission -- certainly, it should be joyful submission, but submission all the same.



humbleinspirit -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:36:15 AM)

Thanks Lisa, and yes I do agree! Now if I could just put that more to practice in my life.



bzirk -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:39:51 AM)

This below is the dividing line. This is the verse that unbelievers do not like and sometimes just out and out hate and spew venom at times when they hear it:

quote:

John 14

6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


This needs to be preached more.



armydude -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:42:01 AM)

I hope I'm not going too far off topic here, but this also brings up another question for me. What's the purpose of our salvation? Too many people think of it as "hell insurance" and nothing more. I believe there's a lot more to salvation than a "get out of hell free" card. The purpose of salvation is to make us more like Christ (Philippians 2:5) so that we can enjoy the constant communion with our Heavenly Father that He did (and does).



humbleinspirit -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:42:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bzirk

This below is the dividing line. This is the verse that unbelievers do not like and sometimes just out and out hate and spew venom at times when they hear it:

quote:

John 14

6Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.


This needs to be preached more.


Yes, I agree!



humbleinspirit -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:43:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

I hope I'm not going too far off topic here, but this also brings up another question for me. What's the purpose of our salvation? Too many people think of it as "hell insurance" and nothing more. I believe there's a lot more to salvation than a "get out of hell free" card. The purpose of salvation is to make us more like Christ (Philippians 2:5) so that we can enjoy the constant communion with our Heavenly Father that He did (and does).


Yes, and that too! Salvation is so much more than that! I heard people accepting Jesus into their heart because of the fear of going to hell and nothing more! You should serve Jesus because you know that you need Him and that you are nothing without Him also!



bzirk -> RE: Few going to heaven (7/19/2008 11:47:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: armydude

I hope I'm not going too far off topic here, but this also brings up another question for me. What's the purpose of our salvation? Too many people think of it as "hell insurance" and nothing more. I believe there's a lot more to salvation than a "get out of hell free" card. The purpose of salvation is to make us more like Christ (Philippians 2:5) so that we can enjoy the constant communion with our Heavenly Father that He did (and does).


Those people miss out on the joy of walking with the Lord. Wow! What an awesome (and certainly humbling) thing to do. Walk with God. Mind boggling.

How about this one:

quote:

Philippians 1

21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.




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