RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (Full Version)

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Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 4:37:56 PM)

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Yes. Now the reason you chose 'could not' is because you think the DoI and Constitution and Bill of Rights that outline rights enjoyed by Americans could not come from an atheist or evolutionary mindset is

1. because atheism and evolution were limited to a tiny corner of political philosophy (possible)
2. because somehow these rights are not conceivable by atheists and evolutionists.

Participants in BeyondBelief 2 are attempting to reconcile #2


Well, both are true, and thus my statement is true.



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 4:50:41 PM)

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I stand by what I said. Deism and Enlightenment thought was heavily influenced by atheist/humanistic ideals such as those put forward by Thomas Paine. "Common Sense" written by Thomas Paine was one of the greater inspirations for the American Revolution and the ideals which founded the Constitution and inspired the DoI.

I believe in the equality of man; and I believe that religious duties consist in doing justice, loving mercy, and endeavoring to make our fellow-creatures happy.
-- Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
-- Thomas Paine, (1737-1809), The Age of Reason,

It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man.
-- Thomas Paine

And these are the nice quotes.


The ‘Age of Reason’ was published sometime after the Constitution and long after the Declaration – it simply wasn’t at all the inspiration for such things, and so bears little consideration here. Nice try though.

It did however inspire the bloody atheistic French Revolution, the first event to show the utter failure of atheism in effecting human rights.

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From my understanding, the Deism of the time proposed that God set the Universe moving and did not interact. Deism denied the existence of a "God of Miracles". Is this how you understand it?


Wrong – Deism at the time was barely removed from Christianity, and held to notions of God, prayer, moral laws, judgment, the afterlife, and providence. It did on occasion argue against the deity of Christ.



Method -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 5:18:52 PM)

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ORIGINAL: Jhud]The ‘Age of Reason’ was published sometime after the Constitution and long after the Declaration – it simply wasn’t at all the inspiration for such things, and so bears little consideration here. Nice try though.


But "Common Sense" was, and I really doubt that Paine had an atheistic "conversion" from the writing of "Common Sense" to the writing of "Age of Reason".

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It did however inspire the bloody atheistic French Revolution, the first event to show the utter failure of atheism in effecting human rights.


And as we all know, the French Monarchy, ruling through Divine Right, was so good to it's citizens.;)

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Wrong – Deism at the time was barely removed from Christianity, and held to notions of God, prayer, moral laws, judgment, the afterlife, and providence. It did on occasion argue against the deity of Christ.


And again, their notion of God was not tied to a specific religion and denied a God of Miracles. Not that I trust Wikipedia that much, but it does state what I remember reading from other sources:

Deism became prominent in the 17th and 18th centuries during the Age of Enlightenment, especially in the United Kingdom, France and the United States, mostly among those raised as Christians who found they could not believe in either a triune God, the divinity of Jesus, miracles, or the inerrancy of scriptures, but who did believe in one God. Initially it did not form any congregations, but in time deism led to the development of other religious groups, such as Unitarianism, which later developed into Unitarian Universalism. It continues to this day in the form of classical deism and modern deism.



Jhud -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/13/2008 6:31:14 PM)

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But "Common Sense" was, and I really doubt that Paine had an atheistic "conversion" from the writing of "Common Sense" to the writing of "Age of Reason".


Actually, Paine applied to become an ordained minister of the Church of England in the late 1760's, and so obviously some things were changing in the twenty years intervening.

And Common Sense was greatly influenced by Benjamin Rush, a devout Christian, with whom he consulted to write Common Sense.

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And as we all know, the French Monarchy, ruling through Divine Right, was so good to it's citizens.;)


By comparison they were saints.

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And again, their notion of God was not tied to a specific religion and denied a God of Miracles.


Well, Paine says this of Deism:

The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical.

None of which denies as I said that most deists believed in common notions of God, prayer, moral laws, judgment, the afterlife, and providence.

None of them of course were 'atheists', and a number of Founding fathers were orthodox Christians.



Aristocrat -> RE: Founders knew about evolution, chose intelligent design (6/25/2008 10:23:16 PM)

None of this has anything to do with modern science. That is the mistake IDer's and creationists make. They still think theology and science are somehow dependent upon each other.



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