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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/21/2008 2:45:59 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
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From: Georgia
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quote:
What is "modest"? And, what is not?
Simple, are you showing off or not?
What do the poor people in your congregation think?
Does the demographic make up of the congregation match the demographics of the community?
If not, you are sticking out one way or another and calling attention to yourself and therefore immodest.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/21/2008 3:13:19 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Good point.
Another thing, Biblical modesty is definitely partly about extravagance of clothing.
Yes. Biblical modesty is only about drawing attention to yourself, especially your wealth. It is not about enticing others to sin.
so, then what IS "extravagant"? And,what is not?
What is "modest"? And, what is not?
Sure, there are some "obvious" answers....but, there are many more "not so obvious" ones....
my church is quite 'affluent' in a north dallas suburb....home to many big-company CEOs, and other "C-level" types....(it's really cool to read an article about a guy in Fortune magazine one day, and then that weekend, run into him at church while he's teaching Sunday school class for 3 year olds!).....ask them what is "extravagant".....
in contrast, the church my inlaws in rural arkanasas go to, most of the families there have 5+ kids, and their household incomes are well below $25,000/yr. Ask them what is "extravagant".....
In summary....dressing "appropriately" at my church, and dressing "appropriately" at my inlaws church requires entirely different definitions of "appropriate"....
With regards to my church, yes, people do dress very well for Sunday church. There is NOTHING wrong with that. It's how most everyone dresses most of the time anyway (they are NOT out to "impress" anyone)....business casual/dressy business.....though, it's certainly not a "rule" or anything....our church HAS a very successful Saturday night service, which is explicitly more "casual" than Sunday mornings, and, there are undoubtedly some people who are more "comfortable" in going to Saturday evening services for that reason....certainly those of "lower income" would feel less "intimidated" by attending when people are "dressed down".....(even I was a bit intimidated for a while when we first started going to church there)
just as there can be no "dress code" telling people to DRESS UP for church, I see nothing that should "instruct" people to DRESS DOWN, either.....just have people wear what they are comfortable wearing....
again...as I mentioned before, there's still the "MODESTY" issue.....and, that definition certainly varies from person to person as to what is "modest" and what is not.....and, 3 people can be wearing the same OUTFIT, and it appear to be modest on 2, while immodest on the 3rd....being here in Texas, where it was well over 100 degrees yesterday, there were a good number of "sundresses" and other outfits that SOME may consider "immodest", while those that were wearing them, obviously did not....there really isn't a clear definition, is there?
When it's not explicitly defined, I'd say it's one of them Romans 14 "let each man be convinced in his own mind" things.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/21/2008 6:33:34 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3370
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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Can a man dress immodestly?
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/21/2008 6:56:34 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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Certainly!
Whether it is an expensive suit with Rolex watch or polo shirt, shorts and sandals, either extreme can be immodest if they make you stand out from the crowd.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/21/2008 7:44:06 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7452
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Can a man dress immodestly?
A fig leaf doesn't scream modest.
Yet, God didn't have problems with it.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/21/2008 8:00:01 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Can a man dress immodestly?
A fig leaf doesn't scream modest.
Yet, God didn't have problems with it.
Interesting thought! No, 2/3 of the population were wearing them. Seriously though, when He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden, He probably was unclothed. Before the Fall, they could look upon His full glory!
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/21/2008 8:16:15 PM
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car2ner
Posts: 2944
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: just north of Florida
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quote:
Can a man dress immodestly?
Don't get me started on sagging pants that are belted just below the butt.
_____________________________
http://www.car2ner.2ya.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/21/2008 8:25:40 PM
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zoebob
Posts: 8802
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Can a man dress immodestly?
A fig leaf doesn't scream modest.
Yet, God didn't have problems with it.
Actually, He did. That's why he made them clothes from animal skins
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 8:15:39 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zoebob
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Can a man dress immodestly?
A fig leaf doesn't scream modest.
Yet, God didn't have problems with it.
Actually, He did. That's why he made them clothes from animal skins
Exactly. If it had not been a problem beginning then, He would have told them to get over it and not started a useless tradition fraught with sinful implications. Instead, He made a way of escape from temptations.
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 9:31:41 AM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1352
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Certainly!
Whether it is an expensive suit with Rolex watch or polo shirt, shorts and sandals, either extreme can be immodest if they make you stand out from the crowd.
so, at my church, expensive suits, rolexes, and polo shirts are "fine & dandy"...
but, at another church, they are "immodest", as they could have you "standing out from the crowd"????
that brings to question those who would be VERY poor....at my church, someone who is VERY poor, and "looks the part", would most certainly "stand out from the crowd"....doesn't seem like the same principle would apply...
then, what about my "flourescent" lime green or orange golf shirts.....they are very nice shirts, but, they DO "stand out".....should i then stick with "muted" colors, and away from BRIGHT? 
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 1:58:14 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
Certainly!
Whether it is an expensive suit with Rolex watch or polo shirt, shorts and sandals, either extreme can be immodest if they make you stand out from the crowd.
so, at my church, expensive suits, rolexes, and polo shirts are "fine & dandy"...
but, at another church, they are "immodest", as they could have you "standing out from the crowd"????
that brings to question those who would be VERY poor....at my church, someone who is VERY poor, and "looks the part", would most certainly "stand out from the crowd"....doesn't seem like the same principle would apply...
then, what about my "flourescent" lime green or orange golf shirts.....they are very nice shirts, but, they DO "stand out".....should i then stick with "muted" colors, and away from BRIGHT?
It sounds like you want people to know you are wealthy and go to a wealthy church. Yes, that is immodest.
The question should be asked why the guy with the Rolex doesn't help out the brother in need.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 2:14:08 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1352
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
The question should be asked why the guy with the Rolex doesn't help out the brother in need.
did I say he didn't?
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 2:33:31 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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You said the poor stand out in your church while you dress richly. Hmmmm...
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:19:12 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7452
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Instead, He made a way of escape from temptations.
My point is, the church overemphasizes the importance of dressing up. And God couldn't care less about your outward appearance, He looks at the heart.
A man in ripped jeans and a greasy shirt is no more of a sinner than the preacher preaching the message.
If He really cares so much about clothes and outward appearance, He must really hate it when I take a shower.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:24:10 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17141
Joined: 2/28/2005
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quote:
then, what about my "flourescent" lime green or orange golf shirts.....they are very nice shirts, but, they DO "stand out".....should i then stick with "muted" colors, and away from BRIGHT?
Well yeah, anything fluorescent is just a crime against humanity.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
You said the poor stand out in your church while you dress richly. Hmmmm...
I didn't get that from his post but I could be wrong. I didn't read it as there are poor people there but if there were they'd stand out.
quote:
It sounds like you want people to know you are wealthy and go to a wealthy church. Yes, that is immodest.
What is immodest? That he goes to that church or that he told us about it?
< Message edited by Kath -- 7/22/2008 5:47:26 PM >
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:24:14 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
A man in ripped jeans and a greasy shirt is...
Has equal amounts of disrespect for both God and man.
There is no shame in being poor or sensibly comfortable. There is in being intentionally filthy.
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:33:11 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
I didn't get that from his post but I could be wrong. I didn't read it as there are poor people there but if there were they'd stand out.
Are you suggesting he meant he was going to a church that is exclusively wealthy?
quote:
What is immodest? That he goes to that church or that he told us about it?
Showing off wealth, primarily, or in a more broad sense, anything that draws attention to ourselves rather than Christ.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:36:45 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17141
Joined: 2/28/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
I didn't get that from his post but I could be wrong. I didn't read it as there are poor people there but if there were they'd stand out.
Are you suggesting he meant he was going to a church that is exclusively wealthy?
I don't think any church is exclusively anything as far as wealth or lack of it. Don't put words in my mouth.
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:39:23 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1352
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
You said the poor stand out in your church while you dress richly. Hmmmm...
there really aren't any people at my particular church that are so "poor" that they "stand out".....(i said that IF there were someone who is VERY poor, and "looks the part, they WOULD most certainly "stand out"....but, that just isn't the case at our church...)
and, even so, that still doesn't mean no one isn't helping them out...
Let's take the Rolex comment.....perhaps the guy DOES wear a Rolex? So what....he could probably very well afford a Patek or a Vacheron, but doesn't want to be "showy" and "flashy".....appearances are not everything (kind of like not judging a book by it's cover)....and everything is "relative"....
then again, that person that LOOKS poor, could be wealthier than you or I......combined...
I earn an "above average" income. Yet, I am "poor" when compared to many in our sunday school class. 4 years ago, I was unemployed for 10 months (money was 'tight', but, we still did 'ok', especially since Iam an Art Director, and plenty of "freelance" work came my way through contacts at church and in our class)....I made a "casual" comment one day when i was looking for a job, to the guy who teaches our class, that I had an interview coming up at an office that was a VERY 'business suit' office environment, and, I was scrambling in my wardrobe to find clothes that were that "dressy" (I had always been in "business casual" environments).....2 days later, a guy from our local men's clothing store calls....the guys in our class got together, and, i was to come down there ASAP, to get fitted for a suit, few pairs of pants, and a couple of custom-made dress shirts....and, the bill was "taken care of" (several hundred dollars).....i didn't even ask (i barely even remembered the conversation in which I mentioned that I could use some "business-type" apparel.
thus, when the need is PRESENTED, and made aware of, you can count on it being met at our church....regardless of what most of the people do wear or drive (or what people's misconceptions are of them...especially those of people who don't know them)....and, when you do get to know them, you know that most grew up in "low income" families themselves, and seek out every opportunity they can to help out most anyone....
< Message edited by kernsfamily -- 7/22/2008 3:50:05 PM >
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:48:07 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1352
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
A man in ripped jeans and a greasy shirt is...
Has equal amounts of disrespect for both God and man.
There is no shame in being poor or sensibly comfortable. There is in being intentionally filthy.
Sounds like a line from Stevie Wonder's song "Living for the City"...and talking about a poor family, and how they are just barely surviving....as he's singing about this family, the line goes:
To walk to school she's got to get up early
Her clothes are old but never are they dirty
Living just enough, just enough for the city..
God could care less about outward appearance....absolutely.....that applies to people whose clothes are "old", and those whose clothes cost a fortune.....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:48:50 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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kernsfamily,
I didn't intend to get in this thread and target you or your church. I apologize for making it too personal.
As you may have guessed, ministry to the poor is very close to home for me and is one of my hot buttons.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 3:58:30 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1352
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DougHorton
kernsfamily,
I didn't intend to get in this thread and target you or your church. I apologize for making it too personal.
As you may have guessed, ministry to the poor is very close to home for me and is one of my hot buttons.
i didn't take it that way at all...dont' worry about it.
Ministry to the poor is a HUGE thing at our church, as well....(and taking my "upbringing", it's a big thing for me, as well)
There are MANY in our community (outside of our particular congregation) who see the "wealth" at our church, and make assumptions that, due to it's affluency, we do not do anything for the poor. And, nothing could be further from the truth.
Even I am "intimidated" by the amount of wealth many people (very good friends) have at church, as I grew up in a "not so good" neighborhood in Detroit, and, "wealthy/successful" people there were looked down upon with resentment......but, now I have gotten to personally KNOW those people, and, have learned that who I THOUGHT the "wealthy" were, was not who they really were.
For the most part, they are just "normal guys"...just like you and me...providing for their families....and, living their lives for the Lord. They just happened to be earning incomes with a few extra 0's on their paychecks....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 4:00:06 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6608
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
God could care less about outward appearance....absolutely.....that applies to people whose clothes are "old", and those whose clothes cost a fortune.....
No argument with you there.
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 5:14:37 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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God does care, but not in the same way we do.
BTW, a little word study:
English word: modest
Greek Word: Kovsmioß
Transliterated Word: kosmios
Verse Count: 2
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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RE: Clothes you Wear to Church - 7/22/2008 5:21:44 PM
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DougHorton
Posts: 934
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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Modesty is contrasted with prosperity, not sensuality:
Job 8:7 - Then, even if your beginnings were modest, your final days will be full of prosperity.
_____________________________
Doug
You may think it strange, but he never likes any assistance. When he made the world, he did not ask the angel Gabriel so much as to cool the molten matter with his wing, but he did it entirely himself. -- Spurgeon
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