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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/12/2008 8:01:31 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
52 million children have never seen life at the hand of abortionists. 52 million children will never have the chance to experience a life filled with their Creator.
If you believe that's "OK" with God, I will not hesitate to call you a liar.
Well apparently some believe it's "OK with God" because they alone possess the knowledge of when life begins. And, if life begins at some nebulous point other than conception, then it's all okay. I guess God has given some folks special wisdom that the rest of us don't have.
However, they have yet to fill the rest of us in on exactly when life does begin, in their opinion. We just never do seem to get past the "because I said so" answer!
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/13/2008 7:39:54 AM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Well apparently some believe it's "OK with God" because they alone possess the knowledge of when life begins.
I'd say pretty much everyone on this thread has had an "opinion" on when life begins, including yourself. And unfortunately, there is at least one other point than conception which is not at all "nebulous."
In my opinion no abortion at all is preferable, but I think we have to recognize that the Bible doesn't give us an actual crystal-clear position on this issue. Jeremiah's discussion of divine foreknowledge has been brought up several times but, since it is about divine foreknowledge before conception, remains irrelevant to the discussion. So dismissing your opponents as having mere "opinions," or sarcastically talking about "special wisdom," doesn't really help matters.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 5:15:20 AM
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ConstantReader
Posts: 158
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I'm pro-life...but not in the same way I was many years ago.
Years ago, back at my old church in a state I formerly lived in, I participated in a pro-life "Life Chain," an event consisting of bunches of folks from my church holding up signs along a road not too far from our church. The question I ask myself today is: "Would I do something like this today?" I have to honestly answer, "No." Because unless we're able to individually (and collectively, through the church) take a single pregnant woman into our homes/hospices/shelters and take care of them through pregnancy (and beyond, if needed), then we're hypocrites.
I also don't condone alleged Christians blocking abortion clinics and threatening troubled, pregnant women with Bible verses, showing only the "anger of God," while conveniently neglecting to mention His mercy and love. Nor do I defend fanatics blowing up abortion clinics or targeting abortionists. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (The last time I checked, this promise is still in effect.)
_____________________________
Long days and pleasant nights.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 7:21:29 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Well apparently some believe it's "OK with God" because they alone possess the knowledge of when life begins.
I'd say pretty much everyone on this thread has had an "opinion" on when life begins, including yourself. And unfortunately, there is at least one other point than conception which is not at all "nebulous."
In my opinion no abortion at all is preferable, but I think we have to recognize that the Bible doesn't give us an actual crystal-clear position on this issue. Jeremiah's discussion of divine foreknowledge has been brought up several times but, since it is about divine foreknowledge before conception, remains irrelevant to the discussion. So dismissing your opponents as having mere "opinions," or sarcastically talking about "special wisdom," doesn't really help matters.
Here...this isn't sarcastic:
When it comes to life and death, there is no such thing as an opinion.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 9:11:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
I'm pro-life...but not in the same way I was many years ago.
Years ago, back at my old church in a state I formerly lived in, I participated in a pro-life "Life Chain," an event consisting of bunches of folks from my church holding up signs along a road not too far from our church. The question I ask myself today is: "Would I do something like this today?" I have to honestly answer, "No." Because unless we're able to individually (and collectively, through the church) take a single pregnant woman into our homes/hospices/shelters and take care of them through pregnancy (and beyond, if needed), then we're hypocrites.
You have biblical support for your view? I can't recall the word of God telling me that if I say it's wrong to break the 5th Commandment to someone who believe they have a right to murder someone I have to take care of them...
quote:
I also don't condone alleged Christians blocking abortion clinics and threatening troubled, pregnant women with Bible verses, showing only the "anger of God," while conveniently neglecting to mention His mercy and love.
Why are all women who are seeking to murder an unborn child a troubled women?
Btw... Would you block a person from beating a child to death outside the womb?
quote:
Nor do I defend fanatics blowing up abortion clinics or targeting abortionists. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (The last time I checked, this promise is still in effect.)
And the last time I checked those who seek to murder the unborn are no less asking for God's vengence as those who perform the murder...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 9:20:19 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 283
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: Ottawa
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quote:
Here...this isn't sarcastic:
When it comes to life and death, there is no such thing as an opinion.
Believe me, I do wish we had the level of certainty that you claim we do. I'm just not convinced it's there. Obviously there are different opinions; the Law isn't entirely clear on this (which is why people turn to vague citations from the Prophets) and, I suppose equally unfortunately, the Bible isn't really a science text.
One body of opinion, which to my knowledge has been with us since the early church fathers, says that the taking of human life is always wrong, and that this is true of the unborn as much as of the born. I do hold to this body of opinion.
quote:
You have biblical support for your view? I can't recall the word of God telling me that if I say it's wrong to break the 5th Commandment to someone who believe they have a right to murder someone I have to take care of them...
I'm not sure I agree. If I knew someone who was considering breaking any commandment on the grounds that they were worried about how to make ends meet otherwise, one of the first things I would do is to show them an alternative that would not be sinful. And if they needed help in walking that path, I would give it to them.
With most of the commandments, this sort of scenario doesn't come up. But it does, for example, come up in the case of theft. If I knew someone who intended to steal bread in order to eat, I would give it to them for free. And then I would attempt to help them find an alternative to theft in the future.
Obviously abortion is not equivalent to stealing a loaf of bread, but I believe the same principle applies.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 9:24:23 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6999
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
Nor do I defend fanatics blowing up abortion clinics or targeting abortionists. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (The last time I checked, this promise is still in effect.)
And the last time I checked those who seek to murder the unborn are no less asking for God's vengeance as those who perform the murder...
John
John, are you saying that it's OK to blow up an abortion clinic?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 9:48:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
Nor do I defend fanatics blowing up abortion clinics or targeting abortionists. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (The last time I checked, this promise is still in effect.)
And the last time I checked those who seek to murder the unborn are no less asking for God's vengeance as those who perform the murder...
John
John, are you saying that it's OK to blow up an abortion clinic?
Nope... I was lumping those who seek aboritons with those who perform them... Normally one who pays another person to commit murder is just as guilty...
As for blowing up death clinics... That's a really a dilemma in some context..
If I stood by and watched a man beat a baby to death with a baseball bat and did nothing I believe most folks would wonder about me...
Though it's wrong to destroy a place where 3500 babies are murdered collectively every day because the government says it's ok to murder the unborn? Who is also killing terrorist in other lands for killing people here...
I guess we have to just sit and take it and wait for God to deal with those who murder the unborn... One thing... You can bet those who God deals with will think having their death clinic bombed is a nice thing compared to what God will do....
Nahum 1:2 God is jealous, and the Lord revengeth; the Lord revengeth, and is furious; the Lord will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 9:49:16 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 626
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
Nor do I defend fanatics blowing up abortion clinics or targeting abortionists. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (The last time I checked, this promise is still in effect.)
And the last time I checked those who seek to murder the unborn are no less asking for God's vengeance as those who perform the murder...
John
John, are you saying that it's OK to blow up an abortion clinic?
Come now, you dont really think that's what he' saying do you?
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 9:53:54 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6999
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
Nor do I defend fanatics blowing up abortion clinics or targeting abortionists. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (The last time I checked, this promise is still in effect.)
And the last time I checked those who seek to murder the unborn are no less asking for God's vengeance as those who perform the murder...
John
John, are you saying that it's OK to blow up an abortion clinic?
Come now, you don't really think that's what he' saying do you?
Actually, he sounds pretty neutral about the idea.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 10:26:48 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisFish
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
Nor do I defend fanatics blowing up abortion clinics or targeting abortionists. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (The last time I checked, this promise is still in effect.)
And the last time I checked those who seek to murder the unborn are no less asking for God's vengeance as those who perform the murder...
John
John, are you saying that it's OK to blow up an abortion clinic?
Come now, you dont really think that's what he' saying do you?
To be honest I am pereplexed how anyone could gather that from what I posted...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/14/2008 10:32:41 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
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I shall posit an answer for you, Diva. John is very strong in his convictions, and I can appreciate that VERY much. I agree with his reasoning and his stance. I do not argue with his vehemence, but truth is absolute. In an attempt to co-opt God's sovreign ability to create life, people now relegate truth to convenience. I cannot tolerate much time in the Science/Origins threads because all premises are based on suppositions, but, in all of the collective knowledge present there, there is a definite lack of recognition for initial argument. IOW, there is an overwhelming antagonism based on suppositions that rely solely on logical conclusion and defy the sovreignty of God. His means and methods are not constrained by logic, nor are they relative to constance respecting physical presentation of geology, biology, etc.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/15/2008 11:07:29 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6999
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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Many women who've had abortions have been convicted of what they've done. They don't need a graphic description. They need someone who will show them the forgiveness and love of the Saviour.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/15/2008 1:09:59 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Many women who've had abortions have been convicted of what they've done. They don't need a graphic description. They need someone who will show them the forgiveness and love of the Saviour.
If they are truly repentant and come to know the Lord, He will faithfully forgive them of the sin of murdering their child, as well as all their sins. I believe John is referring to the women that do not fall into that camp.
And, if they haven't had the abortion yet, they absolutely do need the graphic descpription! If that gets their attention, it just may buy enough time to save that child's life and open the door for the mother's eternal life to be saved, too.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/15/2008 1:14:16 PM
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dianetavegia
Posts: 2030
Joined: 8/23/2005
From: Southern Baptist, Non Calvinist, Pro Life Ga. girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Abortion is murder.
There is no excuse for abortion.
With modern medicene the life of the mother reason is not a reason, but an excuse. Maybe it was a hundred years ago, but not now.
Abortion is murder.
There is no excuse for abortion.
Thanks
RC
Exactly! In fact, if the mother's life is REALLY in danger, why abort when an early delivery could save both lives?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/15/2008 1:21:42 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6999
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Many women who've had abortions have been convicted of what they've done. They don't need a graphic description. They need someone who will show them the forgiveness and love of the Saviour.
If they are truly repentant and come to know the Lord, He will faithfully forgive them of the sin of murdering their child, as well as all their sins. I believe John is referring to the women that do not fall into that camp.
And, if they haven't had the abortion yet, they absolutely do need the graphic description! If that gets their attention, it just may buy enough time to save that child's life and open the door for the mother's eternal life to be saved, too.
Actually, when I was pro-abortion, I had seen similar things to the video that was linked in this thread. It never made a difference to me or most of the people I knew who are pro-abortion.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/15/2008 6:39:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Many women who've had abortions have been convicted of what they've done. They don't need a graphic description. They need someone who will show them the forgiveness and love of the Saviour.
They should be convicted in a court of law... Murder is murder... It hypocrisy to treat those who murder inside the womb different than those who murder outside the womb...
If that are convicted by what they have done, grreat, yet they should still be treated like those who murder outside the womb...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/15/2008 7:17:04 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6999
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Many women who've had abortions have been convicted of what they've done. They don't need a graphic description. They need someone who will show them the forgiveness and love of the Saviour.
They should be convicted in a court of law... Murder is murder... It hypocrisy to treat those who murder inside the womb different than those who murder outside the womb...
If that are convicted by what they have done, great, yet they should still be treated like those who murder outside the womb...
John
Hey John, would you be willing to give me some details of your thoughts in this thread?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/15/2008 9:14:50 PM
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HisFish
Posts: 626
Joined: 8/3/2005
From: Rocky mountain way
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Many women who've had abortions have been convicted of what they've done. They don't need a graphic description. They need someone who will show them the forgiveness and love of the Saviour.
They should be convicted in a court of law... Murder is murder... It hypocrisy to treat those who murder inside the womb different than those who murder outside the womb...
If that are convicted by what they have done, grreat, yet they should still be treated like those who murder outside the womb...
John
I agree with this, as those of us who see abortion as murder would have to. I also believe that since it is premeditated i would call it a capital crime.
_____________________________
The theology of the present aims at the deification of man, but the truth of all time
magnifies God . C. H. Spurgeon
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/16/2008 6:41:03 PM
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ConstantReader
Posts: 158
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
I'm pro-life...but not in the same way I was many years ago.
Years ago, back at my old church in a state I formerly lived in, I participated in a pro-life "Life Chain," an event consisting of bunches of folks from my church holding up signs along a road not too far from our church. The question I ask myself today is: "Would I do something like this today?" I have to honestly answer, "No." Because unless we're able to individually (and collectively, through the church) take a single pregnant woman into our homes/hospices/shelters and take care of them through pregnancy (and beyond, if needed), then we're hypocrites.
You have biblical support for your view? I can't recall the word of God telling me that if I say it's wrong to break the 5th Commandment to someone who believe they have a right to murder someone I have to take care of them...
quote:
I also don't condone alleged Christians blocking abortion clinics and threatening troubled, pregnant women with Bible verses, showing only the "anger of God," while conveniently neglecting to mention His mercy and love.
Why are all women who are seeking to murder an unborn child a troubled women?
Btw... Would you block a person from beating a child to death outside the womb?
quote:
Nor do I defend fanatics blowing up abortion clinics or targeting abortionists. "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (The last time I checked, this promise is still in effect.)
And the last time I checked those who seek to murder the unborn are no less asking for God's vengence as those who perform the murder...
John
Your entire rebuttal contains plenty of canards. First, must we have a Biblical commandment for everything we undertake in day-to-day living? Please. God's given us this gift called "common sense." If we're not willing to put our money where our mouth is, we should leave our mouths shut. It's not enough to lecture the world about evil...we must do good to them. Something about this Jesus guy telling us to "go the extra mile," right? 
"Would you block a person from beating a child to death outside the womb"? Apples and oranges, John. This may shock you, but God Himself doesn't force somebody to obey Him. He allows women to go into abortion clinics for an abortion if they so choose. (Before you get your tidy whities more in a bunch here, let it be said that I don't agree with abortion. It's wrong.) They will have to live with the consequences of their decisions. Since God doesn't force anybody to obey Him, how can His body force them? I detect a subtle implication on your part that you think it's Christianity's job to "force" folks to obey Him. I reject that borderline-theonomic attitude entirely.
And your entire vengeance imbruglio? If I read your weak line of reasoning correctly, it's justified in God's sight to murder those who murder unborn children. Murder is murder, friend. "Thou shalt not murder" (ratsach, in Hebrew) is still in effect. Two wrongs don't make one right. Fanatical thinking like the kind you're espousing has no place in a so-called civilized world.
_____________________________
Long days and pleasant nights.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/16/2008 7:52:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
"Would you block a person from beating a child to death outside the womb"? Apples and oranges, John.
How so? What's make it different? By all means make a case for apples and oranges. Please explain how the child is any less murdered in cold blood...
quote:
This may shock you, but God Himself doesn't force somebody to obey Him. He allows women to go into abortion clinics for an abortion if they so choose. (Before you get your tidy whities more in a bunch here, let it be said that I don't agree with abortion. It's wrong.) They will have to live with the consequences of their decisions. Since God doesn't force anybody to obey Him, how can His body force them? I detect a subtle implication on your part that you think it's Christianity's job to "force" folks to obey Him. I reject that borderline-theonomic attitude entirely.
I believe anyone Christian are not should stand between those who murder and thier victim... I guess you'd step aside if someone was taking out a bunch of children because God allows it... This may shock you, that's murder as well...
quote:
And your entire vengeance imbruglio? If I read your weak line of reasoning correctly, it's justified in God's sight to murder those who murder unborn children. Murder is murder, friend. "Thou shalt not murder" (ratsach, in Hebrew) is still in effect. Two wrongs don't make one right. Fanatical thinking like the kind you're espousing has no place in a so-called civilized world.
The state justly putting those who murder to death isn't murder... Jesus was murdered, the thieves where justly put to death... Sorry, justice isn't vengenace...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/16/2008 7:56:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5511
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ConstantReader
Until the law of the land is changed, though, that won't fly.
Obviously... But you do believe people that those who murder inside the womb should be treated like those who murder outside the womb, right?
quote:
Abortion, while unethical and immoral, is legal.
Obviously...
quote:
Pre-meditated, cold-blooded murder of abortion providers/facilitators is unethical, immoral, AND illegal.
Obviously...
Of course the state is acting in unethical, immoral, and ungoldy manner by allowing it, and as well charging those who murder outside the womb with a crime...
John
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 7/16/2008 7:59:55 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6999
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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I guess the thing that I don't get is why the graphic descriptions are needed. There are women in this thread who've stated that they had abortions and are truly repentive. Why do we need to remind them of what they did?
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