RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (Full Version)

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Jet_A_Jockey -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/15/2008 6:57:14 PM)

I hope we can make that change from humanism to christianity, to go from 'its about me' to 'its about you'. selflessness and humility are polar opposites of the act of abortion, so really how much would God need to spell it out? God is written on our hearts, its only when we put our own motives ahead of that do we cloud our judgment.



armydude -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/15/2008 7:48:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Abortion is murder.

There is no excuse for abortion.

With modern medicene the life of the mother reason is not a reason, but an excuse. Maybe it was a hundred years ago, but not now.

Abortion is murder.

There is no excuse for abortion.

Thanks
RC

edited for spelling
So let me guess. You're against it. Right?[:D]
Seriously, I am too. How we can say, "God is in control," then come up with reasons to say abortion is acceptable is beyond me. If God is in control then we don't need to be acting as though we are and the outcome of a difficult pregnancy is up to the doctors.



Liveloved -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/15/2008 7:55:13 PM)

quote:

I don't care, it's what I belive is right.


fallenstar,

I used to believe as you. I used to think people deserved the choice. And then I read a book called Moments on Maple Avenue. It was a proabortion book about a day in an abortion clinic. (or at least that is my remembrance) That book changed my mind. I became prolife and have never gone back. I think the scene that really changed my mind was when they were discussing removing a baby from a woman and complaining that instead of a doctor removing the baby piece by piece (body part by body part), they should have been put out so that they delivered the baby and didn't have to KNOW what was happening. It was that scene that made me scream. NO! Making someone else participate in your evil is the end of my being prochoice. Why should another human being, such as a doctor, have to remove a baby piece by piece from your body for your convenience and have the blood of that baby on his/her hands for a lifetime. NO. I said NO.

God used that book when I was still in my twenties to convince me of how very wrong abortion is in any and every situation. Taking a life is wrong. I won't do it and I won't agree to others doing it. Not after reading that book.

Anyway, that's my story. I had my mind made up but God used a book to change it. He can change your mind too. Bless ya! LL



armydude -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/15/2008 8:07:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fallenstar

Men, you can NEVER get pregnant, you will NEVER know what's it's like to be a woman, and you WILL NEVER be able\have to get an abortion, so stop throwing yourselves at the issue. As a matter of fact, I don't think men should have a say.
Since you don't think I should have a say, I guess it's a good thing that I'm not going by what you think either.

Now where does that get us? Nowhere. So think about this. When my wife was pregnant, I cared about the unborn children she was carrying. I loved them before they were born just as much as I do now. It's a difficult thing not to take it personally, but I think I can swing it. I will say that according to the bible, every life is precious to God. You don't want my input? That's fine with me. But please don't discount God's input.

If you can show me scripture that can possibly back up the murder of babies for the convenience of their mothers, show it to me.



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/15/2008 10:27:57 PM)

Ever read "Gianna"? It's written by a woman that was "aborted" by her mother but lived...picked up out of the garbage, I believe. (Don't know...I haven't read it all.) Of course, they didn't think she was "viable" either, but God had other plans.

Go ahead...tell God who is and who isn't viable. You may find you're not "viable" one day.



Stronger2day -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 12:13:46 AM)

To the OP, from reading your post you appear to be pretty heated up so I hope that you have some time to clear your mind, relax and read some of the important and truthful points that have been made here. If that's not enough try to seriously think of the men and women that we would have standing alongside of us had their lives not been cut short. They could have made a profound impact on your life and my life- but we'll never know because they never had a chance due to the selfishness that comes with abortion. How could I think that I know better than God as to who should stand beside us and who shouldn’t?



Purposeful_Life -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 12:25:59 AM)

Many people that don't believe life begins at conception argue that it begins [and ends] with breath/breathing.



lexie -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 8:24:25 AM)

quote:

Dumb teenager?!! As the mom of four between the ages of 15-22, I don't understand how one could think that even most teens are dumb. Most teenagers are brilliant!


My husband is a high school teacher...believe me there are a lot of teenagers out there who make the case for sterilization.

But I have to agree with you that dumb teenagers is not an excuse. It was not too long ago that women were marrying in their teens, and having a few children before they turned 20. They were mature and responsible enough to do so.

It is such a North American way of thinking that we need to protect teenagers rather than teach about the consequences of their actions before they do something dumb. I see parents who are shocked that their teenage children are pregnant and I think "you really didn't see that coming?"

I used to be of the same opinion of the original poster. I hated discussing abortion with men, because I didn't think they truly understood. And if someone I know ever decides to have an abortion, I will do my best to talk them out of it, but if they end up doing it, I'll be their afterwards with my arms open, and ready to dry their tears. Because I know I can't forsake someone after they just chose a "solution" that will end up bringing more problems into their lives.

And also, don't think that if you've met someone who has had an abortion and is strong on the outside, they are strong on the inside. I had a roommate who was a "stupid teenager" that had an abortion and she would talk about it like it was a great decision. But if it was such a great decision, she wouldn't have hid it from her current boyfriend who was against abortion, she wouldn't have come running home crying after she heard people talking about it, she wouldn't have stayed in bed all the time when it was getting to that time of year.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 10:28:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Purposeful_Life

Many people that don't believe life begins at conception argue that it begins [and ends] with breath/breathing.


Or onset of brain function.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 10:34:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lexie
I used to be of the same opinion of the original poster. I hated discussing abortion with men, because I didn't think they truly understood. And if someone I know ever decides to have an abortion, I will do my best to talk them out of it, but if they end up doing it, I'll be their afterwards with my arms open, and ready to dry their tears. Because I know I can't forsake someone after they just chose a "solution" that will end up bringing more problems into their lives.

And also, don't think that if you've met someone who has had an abortion and is strong on the outside, they are strong on the inside. I had a roommate who was a "stupid teenager" that had an abortion and she would talk about it like it was a great decision. But if it was such a great decision, she wouldn't have hid it from her current boyfriend who was against abortion, she wouldn't have come running home crying after she heard people talking about it, she wouldn't have stayed in bed all the time when it was getting to that time of year.


Not saying you said this; I'm just making a point. :) Everyone (esp. Christians who believe that life=conception) wants to think that women who have abortions are always emotionally messed up from it at some point in their lives. Some are, but all aren't. That might make them seem cold, but not everyone believes that an embryo is a person, therefore they did no wrong and don't feel bad about it or have problems. It happens.



MrFribbles -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 11:54:13 AM)

quote:

Or onset of brain function.


I hate to sound like a broken record, but again, do you have a biblical justification for this view?



armydude -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 11:55:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

quote:

ORIGINAL: Purposeful_Life

Many people that don't believe life begins at conception argue that it begins [and ends] with breath/breathing.


Or onset of brain function.
But wouldn't that rule out politicians?[8D]


Sorry... just had to.



Tinkerbell_ -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 12:47:58 PM)

I'm am pretty pro-life. I have other thoughts about it but they are just thoughts and I haven't quite come to terms about them.

However I am a firm believer in adoption and feel that for every brain dead pregnant teenager there are plenty of childless couples who would looove to take in the child. Even the mother if she so chose it.

As for men having a say so. I feel that they do, and I find it sad that somehow or another a woman can't carry the child to term and let the father raise it completely. However he loses his rights completely when he writes the check to pay for the abortion.

A smart woman would take that money and put it towards her baby. [;)]



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 12:50:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

quote:

ORIGINAL: Purposeful_Life

Many people that don't believe life begins at conception argue that it begins [and ends] with breath/breathing.


Or onset of brain function.


Have you seen recent studies that show an in-utereo baby, within weeks of conception, shows reaction to pain? Would that constitute as brain function for you?



Stronger2day -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 1:01:03 PM)

So, if some do not believe that life begins with the onset of brain function would that be:
-the 3rd week when the brain division are initially visible
-the 4th week when the hemispheres appear or
-the 5/6th week when an EEG can actually be used to detect the function?

I sure would not want to be guessing at which day the brain was actually functioning- what if you were 2 days off? This is a risky game to play. If the brain has already started to form in the 3rd/4th week and women aren’t usually aware of pregnancy until after 1 month, after the brain has started forming….



armydude -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 1:01:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_

However he loses his rights completely when he writes the check to pay for the abortion.
I find this a refreshing viewpoint. Also a view that I agree with. I find it interesting that pro-abortion women(I don't buy into that whole "pro-choice" thing, but more on that later) talk about how men shouldn't have a say in the matter. The OP here isn't the first time I've heard/read that. But I've also noticed that when men agree with them, all of a sudden they don't mind the input. Why is that?

Here's an interesting fact for you though... 100% of the people that support abortion are no longer in danger of it themselves.



Doc65 -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 1:20:40 PM)

quote:

As a matter of fact, I don't think men should have a say.


Hmmm, I'm glad that a couple of friends of mine had a say otherwise they would have the wonderful, beautiful children they have today...

Why shouldn't a man have a say? As another poster noted, "it takes two to tango". If the father of the child doesn't want the mother to have an abortion, does the mother have the right to abrogate the wishes of the father to have and raise the child? Or is it solely the mother's right to decide the life or death of the unborn? And I really, really hope that I don't get a reply saying that the mother is more fit to raise a child...I've seen (and unfortunately known faaaar too many) "mothers" who were as unfit as unfit can be...to quote the grandfather of one of the two kids whose fathers are now raising them (and the mothers are too busy living their Paris Hilton lifestyle):
"Even rats can breed. But it takes a human to raise a child..."

Y'know, something I've noticed about inflammatory OP's like this one is that the OP generally never comes back to refute/rebut/reply comments that have been made - there are IED's in Iraq that are far more responsive...



Peter_Gunn -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 1:23:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stronger2day

So, if some do not believe that life begins with the onset of brain function would that be:
-the 3rd week when the brain division are initially visible
-the 4th week when the hemispheres appear or
-the 5/6th week when an EEG can actually be used to detect the function?

I sure would not want to be guessing at which day the brain was actually functioning- what if you were 2 days off? This is a risky game to play. If the brain has already started to form in the 3rd/4th week and women aren’t usually aware of pregnancy until after 1 month, after the brain has started forming….


Excellent points. This is, as I've said before, an extremely slippery slope we play on.



Doc65 -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 1:27:48 PM)

quote:

Excellent points. This is, as I've said before, an extremely slippery slope we play on.


...and Satan holds the grease gun....



SovereignIsHe -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 1:59:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

quote:

ORIGINAL: lexie
I used to be of the same opinion of the original poster. I hated discussing abortion with men, because I didn't think they truly understood. And if someone I know ever decides to have an abortion, I will do my best to talk them out of it, but if they end up doing it, I'll be their afterwards with my arms open, and ready to dry their tears. Because I know I can't forsake someone after they just chose a "solution" that will end up bringing more problems into their lives.

And also, don't think that if you've met someone who has had an abortion and is strong on the outside, they are strong on the inside. I had a roommate who was a "stupid teenager" that had an abortion and she would talk about it like it was a great decision. But if it was such a great decision, she wouldn't have hid it from her current boyfriend who was against abortion, she wouldn't have come running home crying after she heard people talking about it, she wouldn't have stayed in bed all the time when it was getting to that time of year.


Not saying you said this; I'm just making a point. :) Everyone (esp. Christians who believe that life=conception) wants to think that women who have abortions are always emotionally messed up from it at some point in their lives. Some are, but all aren't. That might make them seem cold, but not everyone believes that an embryo is a person, therefore they did no wrong and don't feel bad about it or have problems. It happens.


What they believe doesn't change what is right and wrong... Abortion is cold blooded murder and simply believing life starts here or there doesn't change that and it will not suffice as an excuse on Judgment day...

John



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 2:40:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stronger2day

So, if some do not believe that life begins with the onset of brain function would that be:
-the 3rd week when the brain division are initially visible
-the 4th week when the hemispheres appear or
-the 5/6th week when an EEG can actually be used to detect the function?

I sure would not want to be guessing at which day the brain was actually functioning- what if you were 2 days off? This is a risky game to play. If the brain has already started to form in the 3rd/4th week and women aren’t usually aware of pregnancy until after 1 month, after the brain has started forming….


Excellent points. This is, as I've said before, an extremely slippery slope we play on.


I'm not in the "brain function" camp, but it's when function starts, not when the form first appears. About the fifth or sixth day (or sooner) the syncytiotrophoblast produces hCG, so she might be able to find out maybe a week or two after ovulating if she suspects something. The type of test sensitivity and kind of test have a bearing in the very early stages (blood test over urine).



fiat_lux -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 4:08:34 PM)

quote:

What they believe doesn't change what is right and wrong... Abortion is cold blooded murder and simply believing life starts here or there doesn't change that and it will not suffice as an excuse on Judgment day...

Thus far we appear to be lacking a clear Biblical teaching to support your position here. Until we can find one, "beliefs" do matter - including your belief - because that seems to be most of what we have to go on.

I think I'd be glad if there is one, though.



Stronger2day -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 4:17:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22

I'm not in the "brain function" camp, but it's when function starts, not when the form first appears. About the fifth or sixth day (or sooner) the syncytiotrophoblast produces hCG, so she might be able to find out maybe a week or two after ovulating if she suspects something. The type of test sensitivity and kind of test have a bearing in the very early stages (blood test over urine).



More rhetorical in nature---but thanks.



tafkam -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 4:19:38 PM)

Scripture may not specifically address abortion, but it does make absolutely clear that God places value on pre-born life.

Psalm 139:13-15
"You did form my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb...you knew me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret..."

Jeremiah1:4-5
"Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you."

Psalm 127:3
"Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward."

Isaiah 49:1b, 5a:
(1) …Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name. (5) And now the LORD says- he who formed me in the womb to be his servant….

Can you give me any Scriptural reference that reduces unborn children to a "choice" of whether or not to kill them?



Stronger2day -> RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? (6/16/2008 4:23:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

Scripture may not specifically address abortion, but it does make absolutely clear that God places value on pre-born life.

Psalm 139:13-15
"You did form my inward parts, you knit me together in my mother's womb...you knew me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret..."

Jeremiah1:4-5
"Now the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you."

Psalm 127:3
"Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward."

Isaiah 49:1b, 5a:
(1) …Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name. (5) And now the LORD says- he who formed me in the womb to be his servant….

Can you give me any Scriptural reference that reduces unborn children to a "choice" of whether or not to kill them?



Thank you tafkam. Sometimes it is easy to become distracted by worldy opinions- it's great to have a reminder as to where the right answer resides![:D]



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