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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 10:49:31 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
People can believe that biological life is personhood, but people can also believe otherwise. One can say til they're blue in the face that abortion is murder, but when does personhood begin, other than in your opinion?
People can pretend to hide their support for murder in science, doubt and what they believe, but in the end they will have to answer for it... Anyone that thinks Christ could stand over a five gallon bucket with the aborted remains of a child and pat the people on the back and tell well done faithful servant are in grave denial and haven’t even the slightest fear of God…
John
When does personhood begin? You seem to want to believe your opinion is correct, but how do you know this? It's not in the Bible. That's my point. You can't tell other people they're wrong when you don't know. 
If someone doesn't believe that personhood begins at conception (but another milestone in development), there IS no murder in their minds. It's that way to you because you think so... but based on what? It's not based on the Bible. You come up with your opinion as if it should be a no-brainer and people should blindly believe you (you being in general). I don't know where your opinion came from. It's not in the Bible. Can you point out Biblically when personhood begins? It's hard to tell people they're wrong when you aren't able to do so.
Too many times I see that people just believe what they were taught from childhood but never bothered to find out for themselves. This includes conception, but many have been taught from when they were little that it's breathing (I think this is the Jewish traditional belief).
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 6/17/2008 11:01:05 AM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 11:02:11 AM
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Roberta_
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Solo- when do you think that personhood or ensoulment begins?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 12:52:47 PM
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endless_night
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Fallenstar, I honestly believe your first mistake is saying "it's what I believe is right." I don't know if you are a Christian or not but for the Christian, what we believe is right is secondary to what God says is right. For what is right and wrong is determined by God. When we say something is right and wrong, then it usually means it's our opinion.
To claim that a woman who is under distress (or have some sort of mental illness) should not have a child is ludicrous. If that person should not have a child, than that person would not be able to get pregnant. It is the way she handles the situation and how others support her that will either drive her even more into a depressed state or help her out of it. We should not murder a precious child simply because we create situations in our heads that seems impossible to survive.
As for teenagers deserving a second chance because they made a dumb mistake (lets not confuse what is sin and what is a mistake), who said that having a child is NOT a second chance. If you haven't notice, that teenager is already involved in doing grown-up things, therefore they got a grown-up consequence. But a child will not stop a teenager from getting into college, maybe that teenager will not go into college right away, maybe it will be delayed for a little while or their careers might not come as fast as they want but a child will not stop that. A negative attitude and self-consciousness will. As for their bodies not able to handle it, that's not true. There might be some preventative measures that needs to take place, but their body is built to handle it. Oh and remember this, the sin was not the pregnancy, it was the sex. And if this teenager does not have a faith in God to understand that having sex before marriage is sin, then by them using a condom, the pill, or whatever else that prevents them from getting pregnant, does not show case that they have learned from their mistakes.
As for the rape victim getting pregnant, most of those cases are rare, because being under severe distress usually hinders one from getting pregnant. But if that person does get pregnant, why would it be wrong for that person to follow through with the pregnancy. That child does not deserver murder simply because of what the Father do. The sins of the father should not be on the child. Before you go all up in arms and say I don't know what I am talking about, I was raped, and no I did not get pregnant, but the only person I ever blamed the rape on was the rapist and I guarantee you that if I did get pregnant, there is no way I could murder the child because I then was no better than the rapist. This of it this way: The guy raped me; and I had an abortion (justifying to myself that it is not fair that a life was born out of such an ugly union), how am I any better? Is it because society said it was okay does God say it was okay?
I completely understand that you feel that abortion should be available in the matters of these three cases for those who want it, but since when was it ever okay to murder simply because of the situations we find ourselves in? God will forgive us for our sins and get us through this, we have to hold onto that truth otherwise, we can find ourselves justifying pretty much anything. If we can justify murder, there is not telling what else we will allow ourselves to justify.
< Message edited by endless_night -- 6/17/2008 12:59:39 PM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 1:00:26 PM
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endless_night
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I am ardently pro-life... the choice is an easy one..... Sex or no pregnancy?
My sentiments exactly.
Though it is usually, for me, to sin and suffer the consequences or not to sin?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 1:01:39 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I'm between blood and brain function, but brain funtion makes logical sense to me as when the biology becomes a life. (As opposed to blood, which just keeps the body alive.) Conception is the beginning of the human genome; it's not the beginning of a soul (in my opinion) and person. That comes later.
I don't think it's fair that those who believe that personhood begins at conception get to use science as their backup, but those who believe otherwise can't do the same.They say you can't use science to determine, but THEY are attempting to use science but somehow don't seem to see that. I've always held that science can't tell us what is moral and ethical-- most Christian ethicists and people in general hold that; that goes for conception=life too. Biology can tell us when someone has a human genome; it can't tell us when personhood occurs. I've never heard science tell me when someone has a soul or doesn't. That's not the job of science.
I understand that since many Christians believe that cessation of brain function is when the soul leaves, they believe that onset is when ensoulment occurs. That's not where I was working from, but someone can definitely be a biological life and yet not be a person.... zygote or adult. Being a person is about more than biology and genetics.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 1:05:40 PM
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tafkam
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Sine it appears that neither side can prove scientifically when life begins, then wouldn't it be more prudent to err on the side of caution?
And no, the Bible doesn't give us a specific date at which it is a life....but Scripture does make it crystal clear that God places value on pre-born life.
Perhaps one of our pro-choice friends can point to a Scripture that allows for the destruction of in utero children in the name of convenience....any takers?
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Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 1:36:50 PM
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endless_night
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
And for the record, we don't call it "Pro-choice" around our house. We call it "Pro-death." Since when did the opposite of "life" become "choice"?
Although I find this funny, I think when they say Pro-choice, they mean that that person should have a choice whether to keep the child or to abort it. They advocate either life or death.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 1:38:24 PM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
Sine it appears that neither side can prove scientifically when life begins, then wouldn't it be more prudent to err on the side of caution?
To the extent that I'm pro-life I do err on the side of caution, but I also recognize that my beliefs on this issue take a position that may not be solidly supported by Scripture.
quote:
And no, the Bible doesn't give us a specific date at which it is a life....but Scripture does make it crystal clear that God places value on pre-born life.
I'm still waiting for these "crystal-clear" teachings. The last ones posted, as I noted at the time, were rather less than "crystal" clear. Furthermore, as I've noted previously, there are sections of the law - which by its nature is somewhat more concrete than poetry - which could be interpreted in the opposite direction, like Exodus 21 and Numbers 5.
quote:
Perhaps one of our pro-choice friends can point to a Scripture that allows for the destruction of in utero children in the name of convenience....any takers?
The fact that a pro-choice position can't find Biblical support doesn't change the apparent fact that a pro-life position has similar difficulty. However, Numbers 5 would appear to describe a procedure which, if the woman was pregnant from having committed adultery, would result in a miscarriage. This doesn't speak to abortion, but it does seem to suggest that something less than full human dignity is vested in at least some stages of the fetus.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 6/17/2008 1:45:47 PM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 1:42:43 PM
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tafkam
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Well, my friend, when I read them, they are crystal clear. I don't see any gray area. However, for those that wish to keep abortion legal, I'm sure they would have a different view.
SovreignhIsHe painted an excellent picture in an earlier post.....can anybody really picture Jesus standing over a bucket containing the remains of an aborted baby, and telling the doctor and "mother" "Well done"?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 1:48:28 PM
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fiat_lux
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quote:
Well, my friend, when I read them, they are crystal clear. I don't see any gray area. However, for those that wish to keep abortion legal, I'm sure they would have a different view.
Well, I respect that we disagree, but I would be very grateful if you could point me to something I may have missed. The verses you quoted earlier in this thread didn't make reference to the status of the unborn as a life, merely as something that was being formed. One of them didn't mention the status of the unborn at all (Psalm 127), merely children; one of them says that the human body is created by God, something I doubt anyone would challenge here (Psalm 139); and two speaks to divine foreknowledge (Jeremiah 1 and Isaiah 49).
None of this would appear to say much "crystal clear" about what God thinks of unborn life.
Furthermore, I hope I can be forgiven for thinking that if he intended to make it "crystal clear," he would have included it in the laws, which were a very, very detailed prescription for Israelite society whose precise purpose was to make things "crystal clear." Yet in fact we don't seem to find any such statements in those laws. Now, I realize that the absence of a command to the contrary is hardly an argument for abortion, but I'm not making an argument for abortion - I'm just pointing out that we're forming opinions here that are going beyond what is Scriptural.
quote:
SovreignhIsHe painted an excellent picture in an earlier post.....can anybody really picture Jesus standing over a bucket containing the remains of an aborted baby, and telling the doctor and "mother" "Well done"?
It's a fair question, but I'm not in favour of abortion so I'm not sure my answer to the question would be useful.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:05:58 PM
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tafkam
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quote:
I can picture that actually; or picture Him being neutral.
Quite possibly one of the saddest posts I've ever read on a Christian forum.
To picture the same Jesus who wanted the children to come to Him, and then to picture Him congratulating a woman who has just paid to have her child ripped from her womb.....this is one of those times that I am left speechless.
I've got to get out of this thread, it's becoming too depressing....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:08:14 PM
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endless_night
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Not saying you said this; I'm just making a point. :) Everyone (esp. Christians who believe that life=conception) wants to think that women who have abortions are always emotionally messed up from it at some point in their lives. Some are, but all aren't. That might make them seem cold, but not everyone believes that an embryo is a person, therefore they did no wrong and don't feel bad about it or have problems. It happens.
What you describing is not what makes abortion right or wrong, your describing whether someone will be sorrowful (shameful enough to realize that they took a life) and repent of that. If someone does not believe whether murder is wrong then you cannot expect them to repent of their sins.
And I understand, you do not believe that killing an "embryo" is wrong, but pardon me for say this but it is not you who decides what is wrong or right, it is what God says is right and wrong...and killing a human whether you name the stages of life (from embryo, fetus, baby, child, teenager, to adult) is still wrong. The one of the reasons why some people are able to kill an "embryo" and have no remorse is because we remove the human from the situation and allow it to be a thing, instead of what He/she is, a human. Embryo's and fetus do not become human, they are already human-the cells sperm and egg have already determined that, the only difference is, they need the mother's environment to grow and be ready to be born onto earth.
And I'm sorry if this feels like an attack, it's really not my purpose, I just don't want you to assume that become someone does not have emotional distress over abortion, means that abortion is not as bad as others make it sound.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:11:17 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I can picture that actually; or picture Him being neutral.
Quite possibly one of the saddest posts I've ever read on a Christian forum.
To picture the same Jesus who wanted the children to come to Him, and then to picture Him congratulating a woman who has just paid to have her child ripped from her womb.....this is one of those times that I am left speechless.
I've got to get out of this thread, it's becoming too depressing....
Amen and amen! I can't "picture" God being neutral about anything. Actually, I hope He's not neutral about anything. He's the only Truth and Absolute we have!
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:13:00 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I can picture that actually; or picture Him being neutral.
Quite possibly one of the saddest posts I've ever read on a Christian forum.
To picture the same Jesus who wanted the children to come to Him, and then to picture Him congratulating a woman who has just paid to have her child ripped from her womb.....this is one of those times that I am left speechless.
I've got to get out of this thread, it's becoming too depressing....
It's all your opinion based on what you think is right. There's a point at which someone is a person. After that, abortion is murder. Before that, it's not. The picture is sad to you because you think that from the time of conception that's a person. It should be sad if that is your belief. This thread isn't for everyone. Not every Christian thinks an embryo, or a fetus for that matter is a person (I think a fetus is, but not an embryo).
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:13:44 PM
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JustJeannie
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From: the state of confusion
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
I can picture that actually; or picture Him being neutral.
Quite possibly one of the saddest posts I've ever read on a Christian forum.
To picture the same Jesus who wanted the children to come to Him, and then to picture Him congratulating a woman who has just paid to have her child ripped from her womb.....this is one of those times that I am left speechless.
I've got to get out of this thread, it's becoming too depressing....
Amen and amen! I can't "picture" God being neutral about anything. Actually, I hope He's not neutral about anything. He's the only Truth and Absolute we have!
Okay, I have been reading this thread, and didn't really feel the need to post until now. I totally agree with bolded statement!!!
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:15:06 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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To the ones that don't believe life begins at conception, but a some nebulous stage...are you willing to be the one who "pulls the trigger" so to speak?
Just as children grow and mature at different rates, wouldn't it be possible to say the same about an un-born child? If you believe some "study" that claims life begins at, say, 4 weeks, what if it's actually 3 and a half for this particular child? Are you certain enough that you'd be willing to run that shop vac?
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:16:18 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: endless_night
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Not saying you said this; I'm just making a point. :) Everyone (esp. Christians who believe that life=conception) wants to think that women who have abortions are always emotionally messed up from it at some point in their lives. Some are, but all aren't. That might make them seem cold, but not everyone believes that an embryo is a person, therefore they did no wrong and don't feel bad about it or have problems. It happens.
What you describing is not what makes abortion right or wrong, your describing whether someone will be sorrowful (shameful enough to realize that they took a life) and repent of that. If someone does not believe whether murder is wrong then you cannot expect them to repent of their sins.
And I understand, you do not believe that killing an "embryo" is wrong, but pardon me for say this but it is not you who decides what is wrong or right, it is what God says is right and wrong...and killing a human whether you name the stages of life (from embryo, fetus, baby, child, teenager, to adult) is still wrong. The one of the reasons why some people are able to kill an "embryo" and have no remorse is because we remove the human from the situation and allow it to be a thing, instead of what He/she is, a human. Embryo's and fetus do not become human, they are already human-the cells sperm and egg have already determined that, the only difference is, they need the mother's environment to grow and be ready to be born onto earth.
And I'm sorry if this feels like an attack, it's really not my purpose, I just don't want you to assume that become someone does not have emotional distress over abortion, means that abortion is not as bad as others make it sound.
I've addressed that in post #105. Biology canNOT tell us morality, and even the people who use conception as the point of personhood are using biology as their source. It's their opinion that personhood is attained at conception. Nowhere has God said this.
I think every personhood thread goes in the endless circle, but in the end doesn't get anywhere. Simply because it's one's opinion that life begins at conception doesn't make it true by God. God never said it.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:18:52 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
...God never said it.
God never "said" anything about sex-change operations, either. Most of us have more common sense than that.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:20:15 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
To the ones that don't believe life begins at conception, but a some nebulous stage...are you willing to be the one who "pulls the trigger" so to speak?
Just as children grow and mature at different rates, wouldn't it be possible to say the same about an un-born child? If you believe some "study" that claims life begins at, say, 4 weeks, what if it's actually 3 and a half for this particular child? Are you certain enough that you'd be willing to run that shop vac?
I think I'd have to be faced with that to know for sure. I do believe personhood occurs at some later point, but since it's indefinite in the Bible I would rather not act on it since it's murky. Not everyone is like that though. I imagine some think it occurs at some later point and are so certain that they'd have no issues.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:22:13 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
To the ones that don't believe life begins at conception, but a some nebulous stage...are you willing to be the one who "pulls the trigger" so to speak?
Just as children grow and mature at different rates, wouldn't it be possible to say the same about an un-born child? If you believe some "study" that claims life begins at, say, 4 weeks, what if it's actually 3 and a half for this particular child? Are you certain enough that you'd be willing to run that shop vac?
I think I'd have to be faced with that to know for sure. I do believe personhood occurs at some later point, but since it's indefinite in the Bible I would rather not act on it since it's murky. Not everyone is like that though. I imagine some think it occurs at some later point and are so certain that they'd have no issues.
I'm very happy to see that you've chosen a side of the fence.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:39:02 PM
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endless_night
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I've addressed that in post #105. Biology canNOT tell us morality, and even the people who use conception as the point of personhood are using biology as their source. It's their opinion that personhood is attained at conception. Nowhere has God said this.
I think every personhood thread goes in the endless circle, but in the end doesn't get anywhere. Simply because it's one's opinion that life begins at conception doesn't make it true by God. God never said it.
It's funny how you deny biology not telling us morality (which I also believe, I just pointed out that they are humans, not that the biology binds anything moral to it but it shows that what they will look like starts from the sperm and egg) but what amazes me more is that you also deny God not telling us morality in this situation. God said do not shed innocent blood, He tells us He knows us and formed our innermost parts in our mother's womb, He knew us before we were formed, and yet we tell ourselves this doesn't mean God is "not okay" with abortion (I know the wording is extremely off). Simply because we do not know what conception of life is to God does not make it okay for us to guess.
Abortion stops a life, whether we consider it stopping a "thing" from forming into life or stopping a life while it's growing, it kills, and it stops anything that God wanted to do with that child. The emotion of a person does not change the truth of a situation. And in this situation, a child (yes-committing a fallacy in philosophy right now by assuming it is already true) is dead.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/17/2008 2:39:24 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
I think every personhood thread goes in the endless circle, but in the end doesn't get anywhere. Simply because it's one's opinion that life begins at conception doesn't make it true by God. God never said it.
While that may seem true, consider this: a soul cannot be defined by science. What is a soul? If you cannot specifically define the soul in terms of a physicality, then how can you determine a time at which it begins? God knew you before you were born. When did you actually begin? When a physical function began? Trying to define a point at which death is ok seems impossible. Hmmmmm?
Wes, you have too much "common sense"...you'd never get elected to public office! 
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