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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 1:11:48 AM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stronger2day
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
I still went ahead and did it.
I've actually shared a lot in the thread that I linked earlier on this page.
Movies like that have an effect on those who are already pro-life. I don't know for others, but I was pro-abortion at the times that I saw those kinds of movies and it didn't have an effect on me. Now, they bother me, but then they didn't.
I'll check it out. Thanks for being open.
HERE is the link for the thread. It's for Women Only.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 9:52:01 AM
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relady
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quote:
The fact that you can't see/agree with the alternative view is, of course, your right but that doesn't [by definition] mean the other views aren't there. Nor does it negate those opposing views or mean that those who hold them aren't "real" Christians.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:01:07 AM
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relady
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quote:
However, Numbers 5 would appear to describe a procedure which, if the woman was pregnant from having committed adultery, would result in a miscarriage. that is because she had to drink a mixture that if she was pregnant would cause a miscarriage (abortion). I don't remember that whole stretch of scripture without looking it up (I haven't) but I do remember that the woman had to drink something. There are natural herbs around that if taken during early pregnancy can cause a miscarriage (abortion).
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:44:22 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
The fact that you can't see/agree with the alternative view is, of course, your right but that doesn't [by definition] mean the other views aren't there. Nor does it negate those opposing views or mean that those who hold them aren't "real" Christians.
Exactly.
I can see alternative views just fine, but I don't have to agree. I won't believe that life begins at conception just because you say so or that's your opinion-- even if you think that's what God holds. I think God would hold my view, not the conception=personhood view. There's more to being a person than being the correct genome. It's about being fully human and having a soul, not simply the genes. There's more to it than being a human body.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:45:28 AM
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tafkam
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One thing to consider......it becomes obvious that either one side or the other is right on this issue. If my position is wrong, nothing has been lost, the abortions were never lives to begin with, and as someone put so "eloquently", God's "neutral position" on the subject would render it meaningless.
I'm wondering how the pro-death folks will feel if they stand before the judgment seat of Christ and are informed that they did in fact support mass murder of children.
Is that really something you want to have to answer for? Just food for thought.....
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Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:46:21 AM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Even so, the passage in Numbers 5 describes a cereal offering and a punishment declared by God. There is no place in this passage that condones abortion.
It's probably subject to interpretation of the mid to last verses. The curse/thigh/belly scenario is the abortion. I believe it's toward the end.
If you don't think it means that, then that's just the way it is. Everyone won't see it the same way.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:47:18 AM
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tafkam
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quote:
It's about being fully human and having a soul, not simply the genes. There's more to it than being a human body
Can we therefore assume you support the murder of those who no longer function at full capacity? Those in rest homes who'se minds left long ago, but their bodies still function? Or those left in vegetative states due to external trauma?
Or what about born infants? Most humans aren't even aware of their own existence until the age of two or three (where most of us have our first memories). So are they then not "fully human", because they are not self aware?
After all, there's more to it than just being a "body", right?
< Message edited by tafkam -- 6/18/2008 10:53:25 AM >
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 10:51:30 AM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
Even so, the passage in Numbers 5 describes a cereal offering and a punishment declared by God. There is no place in this passage that condones abortion.
It's probably subject to interpretation of the mid to last verses. The curse/thigh/belly scenario is the abortion. I believe it's toward the end.
If you don't think it means that, then that's just the way it is. Everyone won't see it the same way.
Who gave the directives in Leviticus, Numbers, etc.? Who were offerings made to? Who made the judgments? It is not how I see it. It is what the bible says. I agree that the child is being killed, but, if the woman was pregnant by her spouse, do you see where the child still would die? I see the exact opposite.
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<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 11:12:06 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
It's about being fully human and having a soul, not simply the genes. There's more to it than being a human body
Can we therefore assume you support the murder of those who no longer function at full capacity? Those in rest homes who'se minds left long ago, but their bodies still function? Or those left in vegetative states due to external trauma?
Or what about born infants? Most humans aren't even aware of their own existence until the age of two or three (where most of us have our first memories). So are they then not "fully human", because they are not self aware?
After all, there's more to it than just being a "body", right?
THAT'S IT!!! That's the whole, bigger picture point that some seem to be missing. By allowing abortion, we're giving human beings the power to say when life begins and ends.
When you're a teenager or in your twenties, you see yourself as invincible and this doesn't seem as important. But the older you get, you realize you may just be granting some other entity, besides God, the power to say you're no longer useful to society.
< Message edited by Peter_Gunn -- 6/18/2008 11:18:52 AM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 1:23:23 PM
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endless_night
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Exactly.
I can see alternative views just fine, but I don't have to agree. I won't believe that life begins at conception just because you say so or that's your opinion-- even if you think that's what God holds. I think God would hold my view, not the conception=personhood view. There's more to being a person than being the correct genome. It's about being fully human and having a soul, not simply the genes. There's more to it than being a human body.
You have two conditions for someone to be human: they have to be fully human and and have a soul, but you also have two dilemmas: (1) What is it mean to be fully human (defined by God) and (2) at what point does that human have a soul (defined by God). If we cannot define any of these with an absolute certainty, does it then make sense for us to abort without knowing if, defined by God, that what we just stopped to grow, is fully human and have a soul?
< Message edited by endless_night -- 6/18/2008 1:43:20 PM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 2:14:36 PM
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IonMoon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
quote:
i believe now that the person who came up with abortion is now pro-life and regretting for coming up with abortion. [i'm not totally sure though]
I had heard that, too.
Sorry to tag-a-long here, but couldn't find the original quote... but that doesn't even make sense. Abortions have been going on for centuries.
Tara P
< Message edited by rainbowtvp -- 6/18/2008 2:25:08 PM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 2:18:01 PM
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armydude
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This is from the Hippocratic oath...
quote:
To please no one will I prescribe a deadly drug nor give advice which may cause his death. Nor will I give a woman a pessary to procure abortion.
It's been around for some time...
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May all of your troubles last no longer than your New Year's Resolutions!
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 2:18:57 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7425
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rainbowtvp
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
quote:
i believe now that the person who came up with abortion is now pro-life and regretting for coming up with abortion. [i'm not totally sure though]
I had heard that, too.
Sorry to tag-a-long here, but couldn't find the original quote... but that doesn't even make sense. Abortions have been going on for centuries.
Tara P
It didn't make sense to me either until I thought about it. I think they are referring to the woman whom was the "Jane Doe" in Roe v. Wade.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 2:22:09 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 275
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
Who gave the directives in Leviticus, Numbers, etc.? Who were offerings made to? Who made the judgments? It is not how I see it. It is what the bible says. I agree that the child is being killed, but, if the woman was pregnant by her spouse, do you see where the child still would die? I see the exact opposite.
So we draw the line at killing unborn children conceived via adultery?
Sorry, that question is facetious. However, if the ritual in question is willing to cause the death of a fetus conceived through adultery, then the fact it is there would seem to suggest that the Old Testament law did not in fact view the unborn fetus as equivalent to a full human being, at least in some stages of the pregnancy.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 2:58:25 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Who gave the directives in Leviticus, Numbers, etc.? Who were offerings made to? Who made the judgments? It is not how I see it. It is what the bible says. I agree that the child is being killed, but, if the woman was pregnant by her spouse, do you see where the child still would die? I see the exact opposite.
So we draw the line at killing unborn children conceived via adultery?
Sorry, that question is facetious. However, if the ritual in question is willing to cause the death of a fetus conceived through adultery, then the fact it is there would seem to suggest that the Old Testament law did not in fact view the unborn fetus as equivalent to a full human being, at least in some stages of the pregnancy.
That is a supposition on your part. The purpose of the OT laws were not to devalue life but to show the futility in living a life by the law without infraction. Punishments were determined by God for His reasons. By your reasoning, an adulteress was not equivalent to a full human being. Remember: they were stoned to death.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 3:23:01 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2431
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Who gave the directives in Leviticus, Numbers, etc.? Who were offerings made to? Who made the judgments? It is not how I see it. It is what the bible says. I agree that the child is being killed, but, if the woman was pregnant by her spouse, do you see where the child still would die? I see the exact opposite.
So we draw the line at killing unborn children conceived via adultery?
Sorry, that question is facetious. However, if the ritual in question is willing to cause the death of a fetus conceived through adultery, then the fact it is there would seem to suggest that the Old Testament law did not in fact view the unborn fetus as equivalent to a full human being, at least in some stages of the pregnancy.
Ditto.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 3:33:28 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2431
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: rainbowtvp
quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
quote:
i believe now that the person who came up with abortion is now pro-life and regretting for coming up with abortion. [i'm not totally sure though]
I had heard that, too.
Sorry to tag-a-long here, but couldn't find the original quote... but that doesn't even make sense. Abortions have been going on for centuries.
Tara P
It didn't make sense to me either until I thought about it. I think they are referring to the woman whom was the "Jane Doe" in Roe v. Wade.
Although this is to the side, I've always thought that in ancient times they may have had methods of manual abortion done medical "professionals." I know of some herbal abortion methods that have been around since then, but I've always been interested in knowing whether or not they did anything other than that.
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 3:33:52 PM
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WesP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: fiat_lux
quote:
Who gave the directives in Leviticus, Numbers, etc.? Who were offerings made to? Who made the judgments? It is not how I see it. It is what the bible says. I agree that the child is being killed, but, if the woman was pregnant by her spouse, do you see where the child still would die? I see the exact opposite.
So we draw the line at killing unborn children conceived via adultery?
Sorry, that question is facetious. However, if the ritual in question is willing to cause the death of a fetus conceived through adultery, then the fact it is there would seem to suggest that the Old Testament law did not in fact view the unborn fetus as equivalent to a full human being, at least in some stages of the pregnancy.
Ditto.
Please, consider the argument. To say that the life of the fetus was not equivalent is saying you know exactly why God did what He did. He did not right us a book of reasons for His behavior in all things. Why did He have all the people of certain nations killed? Were they less human than others? God is not bound by our thoughts of logic and "fairness".
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them!
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 4:03:39 PM
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fiat_lux
Posts: 275
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From: Ottawa
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quote:
That is a supposition on your part. The purpose of the OT laws were not to devalue life but to show the futility in living a life by the law without infraction. Punishments were determined by God for His reasons. By your reasoning, an adulteress was not equivalent to a full human being. Remember: they were stoned to death.
Perhaps my point was missed. The fetus in question, if indeed it were a full human being, would not have committed a crime worthy of death - its mother would have. And the law does state that we should not put a child to death for his parent's sin.
quote:
Please, consider the argument. To say that the life of the fetus was not equivalent is saying you know exactly why God did what He did. He did not right us a book of reasons for His behavior in all things. Why did He have all the people of certain nations killed? Were they less human than others? God is not bound by our thoughts of logic and "fairness".
I don't know these things any more than you do. I am attempting to draw conclusions based on what I read.
Note, for example, that I say it seems to suggest what I have concluded. I do not have certainty on this issue, beyond stating that there is no obvious statement in the law to the effect that all unborn fetuses are treated as human, and indeed that there are statements in the law seeming to imply that at least some unborn fetuses are not treated as fully human.
< Message edited by fiat_lux -- 6/18/2008 4:10:21 PM >
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RE: Abortion-Pro life or Pro-Choice? - 6/18/2008 4:39:22 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 1951
Joined: 9/23/2005
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I realize I'm treading on thin ice here by saying this, but I honestly have to wonder about any Christian who defends abortion, and we have seen it defended on these boards in a manner that is almost rabid.
We know the character of God, that He is a God of love, forgiveness, grace....and He is the creator of all things. God makes it very clear that He places value on us BEFORE we were formed. Yet we have people saying they can picture God standing over the remains of an aborted baby and telling the "mother" in question "Well done".
If what is done in abortions were done to a whale or a dog, people would be crying for the head of the perpetrator, yet our society cheers and applauds the women who choose to put their children to death, and the doctors who actually commit the murder.
We have a lady in our church who, before she was saved, was an abortion clinic director here in Atlanta. I've had many conversations with her and she assured me that the doctors in these clinics KNOW that it is a baby. They KNOW it is a LIFE. And they KNOW that they are committing MURDER when they perform an abortion. She told me horror stories of babies surviving the abortion process, to either be murdered outside the womb or left to die from exposure on a table somewhere. I could not beleive she was talking about acts carried out by people in a supposedly "civilized" society.
I've seen programs on the issue where pro-death proponents try to discourage the showing of pictures of aborted babies. What are they so afraid of? If it is legal, and if it is safe, and if it is truly not a human being, then why shouldn't people be allowed to view the final result if they so wish? Because, as the video posted made crystal clear, the pictures demonstrate that it is a LIFE.
The legalization of this horror is our Supreme Court's handiwork. The public should be able to look at that handiwork. But no, the pro-death crowd wants it hidden. Why? Because it can't take the light of scrutiny.
Apologies to the mods if this steps over a line. But I had to say it. Delete it if you have to.....
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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