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JimboFletch -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 2:25:14 PM)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
-Ephesians 2:8



deliveredarling -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 2:33:39 PM)

I found the one I was thinking of, Had trouble remembering it's location:

1Cr 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Cr 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Cr 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another {various} kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.


That was an excellent one to Jimbo!



JimboFletch -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 2:35:23 PM)

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
-Romans 10:17

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
-Galatians 5:22



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 2:38:33 PM)

Hi JimboFletch,

Maybe we're not meant to agree. If so - then so be it.

I still can't understand how we can weigh on one side your quotation above from Ephesian 2:8 compared to all that Jesus said to (and sometimes reprimanded) his followers for lack of Faith.

For instance when the apostles asked Him to make their Faith greater, He replied: If you had Faith as big as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, "Pull yourself up by the roots and plant yourself in the sea!" and it would obey you. Luke 17:6

He didn't say: OK - Faith is a gift from Me, since you ask nicely I'll make it greater.

He reprimanded them because of their weak Faith and asked them to try harder.

At least that's how I understand it.



Little_1 -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 3:45:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling

Please post scripture stating that faith is a gift. I'm still looking for it\[&o].


Ephesians 2:8
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God......"



Little_1 -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 4:09:28 PM)

Matthew 8:26
He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

Matthew 14:31
Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

Matthew 16:8
Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, "You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread?

Luke 12:28
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith!

Jesus is chastising various people 'who have doubts' in the passages above; however, in the passage below, Jesus is not chastising anyone for doubting; rather He is teaching that if we have even a little faith and are willing to obey and trust Him - then we will see great things, (big difference) e.g.

Matthew 17:20
......"I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you."
------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:

-- ORGINAL mvic
For instance when the apostles asked Him to make their Faith greater, He replied: If you had Faith as big as a mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, "Pull yourself up by the roots and plant yourself in the sea!" and it would obey you. Luke 17:6


Should our emphasis rather be on how great our God is rather than how great our faith is? The disciples wanted great faith instantly but it seems that they needed to realise that they needed to learn Who their faith was directed to firstly and that if they would only grasp this then they would see that even a little faith in a great God is good. They wanted to run before they could walk so to speak.



TorchHeart -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 4:39:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

This is not meant to insult anyone.

Presumably, once you did not believe - then you believed in God and your Faith grew from strength to strength. You know you'll go to Heaven.

How can you be so sure?

How can you be so certain that your Faith will not be shaken so much at some time in the future that you will not believe any more?


How do you mean by this? Because my faith has been shaken, lately. And I still believe in God. I just don't know if I see Him the same way I did before, or if I understand Him or His actions the same way I used to. I even find myself wondering if God just hates me, sometimes. Even though I don't believe that's true.

But I still believe in Him. And I'm sure that, somehow, He's going to show Himself back to me and let me understand.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 4:55:52 PM)

Thank you Little1 for your quotations and for your insight.

You're right of course: our emphasis should be about how great is God rather than how great is our Faith.

What I'm trying to understand though is: where does Faith come from?

If, as I believe, we initiate our Faith - i.e. we make the original decision to believe or not. Then, through the grace of God and the help of the Holy Spirit that Faith can grow and become stronger.

On the other hand, if Faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit - i.e. we do not initiate it; (we either have it as a gift or not). Then what is the point going out witnessing to un-believers? What is the point of pastors, preachers and the like? Un-believers don't have Faith because the Holy Spirit decided not to give it to them and there's nothing we can do about it with our witnessing etc ...

Personally, I think we should make the very first step into Faith by believing. The Holy spirit then enhances that Faith as we grow with the Lord.

As Paul put it: To have Faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see. It was by their Faith that people of ancient times won God's approval. Hebrews 11:1



_CANCELLED_ -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 5:01:00 PM)

quote:

Should our emphasis rather be on how great our God is rather than how great our faith is?


No one's emphasizing or boasting about how great their faith is, as such. We're giving the Lord credit for our Faith b'c we know it's a gift from Him. Nothing wrong with that. It's still praise.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 5:05:27 PM)

Hi TorchHeart,

You make my point admirably. What I'm trying to say in my Opening Post is that whatever our Faith, there are times when it is shaken. Maybe the devil gets the better of us; maybe life's circumstances, whatever it is - Faith can be shaken.

God in His wisdom allows that. Maybe it is to test us. Maybe it is to help us fight the devil and regain ground lost by strengthening our Faith. We don't know why He allows it to happen. Nor should we waste time trying to analyse His will.

When our Faith is shaken we should pray to Him and ask Him for His help to strengthen our Faith.

What you're experiencing is something we've all experienced. The devil is angry that you're close to God and is trying to lead you astray. Fight him with prayers.

No ... God does not hate you. He loves you and if you seek His help He will not let you down.

God bless.



Little_1 -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 5:13:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Won_by_One

quote:

Should our emphasis rather be on how great our God is rather than how great our faith is?


No one's emphasizing or boasting about how great their faith is, as such. We're giving the Lord credit for our Faith b'c we know it's a gift from Him. Nothing wrong with that. It's still praise.


Noone on this whole thread is boasting about their faith as you rightly point out WbW (rather we boast in God thankfully); however, I was trying to draw attention to the fact that if we could only grasp the great attributes of God - we would realise that even if we have a little faith - we have a great God. I believe this is where most (if not all) Christians begin regarding faith and their faith grows the more they learn about God's attributes by listening to what His Word teaches. Hope I have explained myself better this time.



Lufia -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/18/2008 5:38:28 PM)

quote:

If, as I believe, we initiate our Faith - i.e. we make the original decision to believe or not. Then, through the grace of God and the help of the Holy Spirit that Faith can grow and become stronger.

On the other hand, if Faith is a gift from the Holy Spirit - i.e. we do not initiate it; (we either have it as a gift or not). Then what is the point going out witnessing to un-believers? What is the point of pastors, preachers and the like? Un-believers don't have Faith because the Holy Spirit decided not to give it to them and there's nothing we can do about it with our witnessing etc ...

Personally, I think we should make the very first step into Faith by believing. The Holy spirit then enhances that Faith as we grow with the Lord.


I totally agree with that. It would be unfare that Faith is a gift. Why would i receive it and not my neighbor?



SonInMe1 -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 8:00:21 AM)

Eph. 2:8-10

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
2:9
not by works, so that no one can boast.
2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.



JimboFletch -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 2:11:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lufia

I totally agree with that. It would be unfare that Faith is a gift. Why would i receive it and not my neighbor?

So, you start out "better" than your neighbor who is not able to generate enough faith to be saved?

quote:

If, as I believe, we initiate our Faith...

Then your goodness, not God's grace, is stronger than those who don't have your inherent goodness - which is problem because Jesus said that no human is good, only God.

Here's a comparison in receiving Jesus and rejecting Him:

What would you choose if someone asked you would you rather receive a $100 bill or have your eye poked out with an ice pick?

Nobody in their right mind would choose the second, yet millions can't choose to receive Him when presented the alternative.

Either certain people are born with inate goodness to have saving faith (NONE are righteous, so says the Bible) or else God gives you the grace and faith to believe.

Either YOU have reason to boast that you were better before salvation than the masses going to hell (and deserve some credit) or else God deserves all credit for your salvation.

Grace is either a gift or it's not grace.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 4:55:09 PM)

Hi JimboFletch,

You are really confusing me. Either that or I am totally stupid.

Let's go over it again. "Either certain people are born with inate goodness to have saving Faith ... or else God gives you the grace and Faith to believe". "Grace is either a gift [from God] or it's not grace".

In other words, as you said earlier, an individual cannot INITIATE, Faith. You either have it as a gift from God or you don't.

If this is so: then why bother with pastors, preachers and the like trying to turn people to Christianity? The non-believers either have Faith (given by God) or not - if not then no amount of preaching will help them.

And how about those un-believers with no gift of Faith? Why blame them and send them to hell through no fault of their own? Had God given them the gift of Faith they too would have believed.

That's, as I understand it, is the logic of what you are saying. Or did I misunderstand somewhere?

Please take time to respond as I'm really getting confused here !!!



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 5:00:30 PM)

Furthermore, JimboFletch:

Using your example of the $100 or the ice pick. Anyone without any Faith at all would choose the $100 - i.e. would choose to follow Jesus.

But that is Faith under duress. You really are giving him no choice. Anyone would "invent" his own Faith to avoid the ice pick (hell and damnation).

Is this what a loving God wants from us? Believe in Me or I damn you to eternity?

If so ... what's the point of Christ's sacrifice?



Roberta_ -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 5:05:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

This is not meant to insult anyone.


Glad you said that because I've been avoiding this thread because of the title. My faith isn't always as strong as I'd like it to be.

quote:

How can you be so certain that your Faith will not be shaken so much at some time in the future that you will not believe any more?


I can't. That is why He draws me to Him daily through prayer and Bible reading. I've learned that when I think I'm questioning Him heavily, that it's not really me questioning Him but Him encouraging me to seek His will.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 5:15:06 PM)

DenimDiva,

Brilliant - it is by questioning that we learn.

Sorry about the title of my thread. I hope people don't consider all my questioning as causing trouble.



Lufia -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 5:20:44 PM)

For me Faith as a gift doesn't make any sense. Where is the freewill in this? Plus it is not fair.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 5:33:19 PM)

Lufia,

My point exactly.

I think an individual must make the first step into Faith.



HisFish -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 8:09:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I sure am glad and blessed that it isn't true that I am the initiator of my faith in Jesus. This could be a topic all in itself, but true faith, saving faith, enduring faith, is a gift of God. The Bible is clear that we do not, will not, seek after Him - that God is the initiator in salvation and growth in Jesus Christ.

An thats the gospel on a silver platter. Amen and amen!



HisFish -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 8:11:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lufia

For me Faith as a gift doesn't make any sense. Where is the freewill in this? Plus it is not fair.

Your right. Fair would be justice done and we all go to hell.



HisFish -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 8:29:06 PM)

quote:

If this is so: then why bother with pastors, preachers and the like trying to turn people to Christianity? The non-believers either have Faith (given by God) or not - if not then no amount of preaching will help them

Everybody needs to hear the general call, the elect and non elect alike, that's why the need for evangelism. Those who have been given hearts of flesh, replacing their hearts of stone, will respond (prompted by an inner heart call). The elect are as lost as anyone until they hear their Masters voice.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 8:51:16 PM)

Hi HisFish,

Please explain what you mean in Post No 48.

Everyone needs to hear the call. Agreed.

Those who hear, presumably, (according to your post No. 46) only hear because they have been given Faith by God. For they are not the initiators of that Faith - God is.

OK so far?

It then follows that those who don't hear, and therefore do not turn to God and Christianity, do not hear because they have not been given Faith by God.

If this is also correct then it would be wrong and totally unfair to blame them and send them to hell. The reason they did not hear is because (according to you) God in His wisdom did not give them Faith - like He did to you and me.

Hence my belief that MAN not GOD is the initiator of Faith. It is for man to take the first step. To want to believe, to admit his sins, to accept Jesus as his saviour, and to follow Christ's word.



SonInMe1 -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 8:53:52 PM)

First, I must say that I doubt anyone truly knows the totality of the salvation process. Here is my take on it.

Salvation comes from God. Its not something we can earn or by a matter of free will attain. It is not, today I am unsaved...and then all of a sudden tommorow I am saved..kinda deal.

God leads us to Him. God calls us. God gives us the ability to submit to Him. God is the reason why, and how we are saved. Without God in the process we have absolutely no ability to save ourselves. In fact, without God salvation is impossible. You cannot intellectualize yourself to be saved. You can't follow some pastor and get saved...or some church.

Its about God.

Our part? I am not sure. It seems our part is our ability to..deny Him. Even as saved people we can deny His will. To me, that defines free will...our ability to sin.

With God's help, we can submit to Him and do His good works, which He has birthed in us at salvation and which He has planned for us to do, Ephesians 2:10.

Without God we can only do evil. Now, unsaved people do good once in a while. I look at that like this...saved people sin, they mess up and sin. Unsaved people do the same thing. They mess up and do good.

Why are some saved and some are not? A good question and there is NO answer for it other than trusting God to do...what ever it is that God does. Our part, in our covenent with God is to represent Him to the world as best we can...and that is flaws and all.....so people might know Him better. He calls but if people do not know He who calls, they cannot answer.

I remember thinking there has to be more to life than what I was living when I was unsaved. There had to be...more. I didn't know what that was and over a number of years God conditioned me....and I cannot think of a better way to put that...to Him.

I wouldn't have known who God was unless I went to church and studied the bible to find out.

Now, the bible does say God is presented to us by His creation. I don't understand all of that but I do know God presents Himself more than just church. Church...is probably the "easiest" way to know God....and of course how we live is another way people can see and know God.

Why did I go to church to find out about God? Like I said I was conditioned by Him to go and find out. Why don't others do the same?

I don't know. Why would God choose.....me? No clue.



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