RE: How strong is your Faith? (Full Version)

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mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 9:07:24 PM)

Thank you SonInMe for a good answer.

As you say: "God conditioned" you. He was/is always there. He made Himself known to you (through pastors, church or whatever) and YOU made the decision to find out more. In your case you went to church and studied the Bible to find out more. Others go to God via other routes.

The important point being that YOU made the decision. You stepped out in Faith. You tried to find out more and to believe.

That's my precise point. Man takes the first step.

It isn't something he does (i.e. believe) because he has been pre-conditioned or had a chip implanted in him called Faith.

Man takes the first step. God helps him along by enhancing and strengthening that Faith.



x_SoliDeoGloria_x -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 9:10:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lufia

For me Faith as a gift doesn't make any sense. Where is the freewill in this? Plus it is not fair.


Protesting that faith being God's gift to the believer rather than the believer's choice isn't fair has no Biblical basis. Please read Romans 9:10-24!

As to why bother evangelizing people if faith isn't our choice, Romans 10:17 says that "faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." This is an example of the Holy Spirit working through common means, that is, the Holy Spirit creates faith through the means of preaching the gospel.

This whole issue has been debated for centuries. For example, Calvin understood the Scriptures to teach that the Holy Spirit creates faith in all of the elect who hear the gospel, but none of the non-elect. Luther and his followers understood the Scriptures to teach that the Holy Spirit will create faith in anyone who hears the gospel unless the person rejects the gift of faith. Arminius and Wesley understood that faith is essentially the believer's decision to believe.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 9:10:35 PM)

One more thing SonInMe,

You ask at the end of your post: "Why don't others do the same?"

Because they have the Free Will (given to them by God) to listen or not to listen. To sin or not to sin. They choose to continue sinning.



violinist_for_jesus -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 9:21:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

This is not meant to insult anyone.

Presumably, once you did not believe - then you believed in God and your Faith grew from strength to strength. You know you'll go to Heaven.

How can you be so sure?

How can you be so certain that your Faith will not be shaken so much at some time in the future that you will not believe any more?

Cuz I serve a God who daily shows His love for me and His creation. And by God's grace, He will continue to reveal Himself to me.



SonInMe1 -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 9:24:34 PM)

quote:

The important point being that YOU made the decision.


There is a very small element of this that is true...very small. Without God's conditioning, I could not have made any decision. The glory is all God's. Without Him there is no decision to make and without God we cannot MAKE the decision...so...how much "credit" can I take for being saved?

None.

Is God unsuccessful in reaching people? Does He try...and fail? I don't believe so. If God wants ya saved...you will be saved.

Again, why are some people unsaved...the vast majority of people? I don't know. God does what He does.

Am I some kind of special person being chosen by God? Someone who earns it or was good enough or smart enough to "get saved"?

**** no!

I don't know why I am saved and others are not. Its one of those mystery things.

What is our part in salvation? Submission....and I don't believe we can submit without God.

I am 99.999999999% predestination. What is left is our part...and we can't do "our part" without God.

Bottom line is, salvation's glory goes to God and Him alone.



HisFish -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/19/2008 9:41:08 PM)

quote:

If this is also correct then it would be wrong and totally unfair to blame them and send them to hell. The reason they did not hear is because (according to you) God in His wisdom did not give them Faith - like He did to you and me.


Mvic, on the face of it, it does seem unfair, but that is only because we with our finite understanding cannot make sense of the "why" of it.

Rom 9:19-23
You will say then to me, Why does he yet find fault? For who has resisted his will? 20 No but, O man, who are you that reply against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus? 21 Has not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and another to dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared to glory

The problem we as mere men have is we like to think that God has the same thought processes that we have, i.e. our sense of fairness is logical to us, therefore it must be to Him. We cannot possibly fathom all that is the infinite mind of God and our minds have not the capacity to comprehend anything other than the most basic of communications from Him. Since God is God, he can do whatsoever He wishes with us and not even feel obligated to give us a reason for anything. The real question shouldn't be why some and not all, but why any of us.



aldrine -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 1:22:54 AM)

it's His grace that will save not because this is a right or privilege but a gift which is worth cherished and valued. i wholeheartedly admit that i ALWAYS lose my way especially during these times when your expectations aren't met, however this ALWAYS is also the time when i get to look at the brighter side of things as Jesus is with me and only wants the best for me.just do whatever you're capable of to not fall onto the valley of death.praise God.



Ezra -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 2:29:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Please post scripture stating that faith is a gift. I'm still looking for it\[&o].


Before I respond, let me just say that too much is made of "the strength" of our faith. The focus should be on the object of our faith -- Christ -- and His power not only to save us but to keep us and bring us to perfection.

Faith is simply believing God, believing His word, and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing results in obedience to the Gospel and to all God's commandments.

This should transform us through the new birth, and it does. This should also enable us to walk by faith and not by sight through the power of the Holy Spirit.

As to faith being a gift, we need to acknoweldge that everything we have and all that we are is actually a gift from God, including the new birth (James 1:17,18).

Therefore saving faith is a gift received by sinners through the preaching of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit. But this gift is available to all (Mk. 16:15,16; Rom. 10:17; Jas. 1:17,18). Saving faith comes through hearing and believing the Gospel with our innermost being.

As to a verse that says that faith is a gift, it is indeed a spiritual gift given to some believers in that their faith is far greater than that of others. Thus Paul, in speaking of spiritual gifts in 1 Cor. 14 says "To another FAITH by the same Spirit" (v. 9). See also Rom. 12:6 which speaks of "the proportion of faith". Obviously this is not saving faith since it is a spiritual gift given only to believers.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 7:55:54 AM)

Thanx SoninMe,

Sorry to come back for further clarification.

"Without God's conditioning, I could not have made my decision". OK - I take that to mean He prepared you to accept His word, He gave you knowledge, intelligence etc ... to listen and make up your mind. He also gave you Free Will to believe, or to walk away from Him.

You chose to believe. So the first initial step into Faith must have come from you. You initiated Faith.

"Does He try ... and fail? I don't believe so".

Again, like in your case, He makes Himself known to others. They choose to walk away - it's their Free Will choice.

"What is our part in salvation? Submission."

I agree 100% with that.

"I am 99.9% predestination."

Wow ... hold it there. Now you lost me. If you're predestination - i.e. He chose you and you were destined to follow Him. Then where's you're Free will to believe or not?

How about those who did not believe? Are they predestined not to believe? Then why blame them for a choice they did not make?



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 8:00:27 AM)

Hi HisFish,

Thanx for your reply.

I agree that we humans tend to think like God, or believe we're cleverer than Him. But I've still got to come back to my point about who initiates Faith.

Is it the human, who makes the first step and chose to believe in God?

Or has God pre-destined the human to believe?

If the latter, then my comments to SoninMe (previous post) apply. Why does He choose some (like you and me) and not others?

Are others, non-believers, to blame for not being chosen?



JimboFletch -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 8:08:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Furthermore, JimboFletch:

Using your example of the $100 or the ice pick. Anyone without any Faith at all would choose the $100 - i.e. would choose to follow Jesus.

But that is Faith under duress. You really are giving him no choice. Anyone would "invent" his own Faith to avoid the ice pick (hell and damnation).

Is this what a loving God wants from us? Believe in Me or I damn you to eternity?

If so ... what's the point of Christ's sacrifice?

You're missing the point. If it'll help, change the comparison to "Whould you rather have $100 or sleep in a pig pen tonight?"

The point is that the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ in comparison to any temporal offerings of the world should make every sane person run joyfully into the arms of God. Logically speaking, the rarest humans alive would be the ones that reject the Gospel.

But if human logic or even human goodness could bring about salvation, then we have reason to pat ourselves on the back for having an inborn goodness and we, therefore, deserve salvation by at least some of our own merits.

Grace is not only a gift, it is a gift that cannot be earned or deserved. God is a debtor to no human.



JimboFletch -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 8:14:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic
Are others, non-believers, to blame for not being chosen?

The fact is, we all deserve eternal separation from God. Nobody deserves heaven. Everyone, by God's standards of holiness and righteousness, deserves hell.

If you start judging God's grace by any other premise than our unworthiness, you end up with questions that indicate God is somehow unfair if He chooses you and not me.

That you fall in love with one person and not another mean that those you do no fall in love with are to blame for you not choosing them?



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 8:30:02 AM)

Thanx again JimboFletch,

I understand and accept your point. Logically, the most idiotic of people would choose to reject the Gospel and to reject God. (I paraphrase what you say).

I also agree that by our very nature we all deserve to go to hell. God gave us an opportunity (one and only chance) to remedy the situation by accepting Christ as our Saviour.

So God is not unfair - He gave everyone the opportunity to choose Christ or not to do so.

You (and I) chose to follow Christ. We, made that first step. We could have chosen not to follow Christ and walk the other way. We didn't.

Hence my point that it is man who makes the first step into Faith. God gave him the ability to choose Faith, and gave him the free will to choose. Man makes the first move.



JimboFletch -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 8:40:58 AM)

quote:

Man makes the first move.

How do you figure?

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
(See Romans 5)

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
See Romans 3


God always has been and always will be the Initiator.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 2:18:33 PM)

You know JimboFletch, the more I read our various posts the more I think we're more in agreement than not.

Of course God is the initiator. He gave us the means to come to Him by sending Jesus to us. (John 3:16).

" ... so that everyone who believes in Him may not die ..."

So in that respect - Yes, God is the initiator. He created the "bridge" as it were for us to go to God.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6

So at some stage, you and I had to make the decision that we will go to the Father via Jesus. It wasn't something programmed in our brain by God so to do; without us having a choice in the matter.

So to summarise my understanding of the quotations in your post above:

God initiates by providing Jesus as our Saviour.

We decide whether to accept God and Jesus or not.



SonInMe1 -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 7:06:42 PM)

quote:

Then where's you're Free will to believe or not?


Free will is the ability to deny God. Its not the ability to accept God because without God, you cannot accept Him.

quote:

How about those who did not believe? Are they predestined not to believe?


I don't know. I do know to say I "chose" God by a matter of free will gives me way, way, way too much credit.

Who called me? God.

Who gave me the strength to submit to God? God.

Why did I submit? God.

I can't take any credit for my salvation. Left to my own I would have stayed unsaved. People always say if they knew what they know now they wouldn't have led the life they led. I disagree. I would have done exactly what I did.

I needed God because He presented Himself to me by living a life outside of Him. It took years and many steps. A little belief in aknowledging there was a God. Examples of others. Failure upon failure. God using my wife to suggest we go to church. Finding the right church to hear the gospel.

Then, something happened. I had heard the gospel and it was a tuggin' at me but I hadda problem. Our church had an alter call at the end of each sermon. The pastor would ask everyone to bow their heads and close their eyes and those who accepted Christ, he would ask to raise their hands. Then he would ask those who did to come forward for prayer.

I had a hard time just being in that rather small store front church with a couple hundred people in it. The only way I could be in a room that small with that many people before was to be intoxicated. I felt before that, panic attacks. For me to go up front and recieve prayer in front of all those people...impossible.

One day, I did raise my hand...and...in my three years in that church not once did they change how they did alter calls...except that one day. Instead of going up front to get prayer, the ushers came around and gave out literature etc.

It was custom made...just for me.

Later I became an usher and would stand up front with the pastor as he prayed for the offering before we handed out the buckets. Hadda name tag and got involved in the interrcesary prayer team and would pray for people whenever and where ever they wanted prayer.

That...was not me. I could not do any of that. It was also a pentacostal style church...being demonstrative. That..wasn't me either. Not in public. Not sober.

...and that is just a little of how God changed me. I didn't do it. It didn't start with me. All I could do...was to deny God. I didn't. The glory is God's not mine. The only glory I could get was denying God.

I've done that too. There...is a difference. I don't understand all of that. I don't know why everyone isn't saved.

I just trust God to save the ones...He saves.



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 7:49:29 PM)

Thank you SoninMe for sharing your story. God loves you for doing so. It may inspire others.

I believe that God certainly does choose some people, like He did you. Ususally the purpose is that He has a task for you to do. If He hasn't yet told you what it is; be prepared to listen to Him.

You're priviledged.



HisFish -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 7:52:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mvic

Thank you SoninMe for sharing your story. God loves you for doing so. It may inspire others.

I believe that God certainly does choose some people, like He did you. Ususally the purpose is that He has a task for you to do. If He hasn't yet told you what it is; be prepared to listen to Him.

You're priviledged.

Mvic, i have seen from all your posts how much you love the Lord, dont you realize your one of the chosen as well?, because you are brother[:)]



mvic -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/20/2008 7:57:19 PM)

Thanx HisFish,

I think the Lord sometimes despairs with me. I know I would if I was Him!



SonInMe1 -> RE: How strong is your Faith? (6/21/2008 7:55:53 AM)

If we are satisfied with our faith and the resulting works then...its no true faith in my opinion.



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