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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 1:12:19 PM
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benelchi
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One more interesting note on this topic:
In Hebrew numbers are derived by assigning a numerical value to the Hebrew letters i.e. Aleph = 1, bet=2, gimal=3, etc... The system works something like the Roman numerals; however, with a twist because of the same desire to show reverence for God's name.
Here is what I mean.
11 is Yod-aleph (10+1), 12 is Yod-bet (10+2), 13 is Yod-gimal (10+3), 14 is Yod-dalet (10+4), but 15 is tet-vav (9+6), and 16 is tet-zayin (9 +7), and then 17 is back to the normal pattern yod-zyin (10+7)
The reason that 15, and 16 break the expected pattern is that yod-heh, and yod-vav are considered abrivations for YHWH, and using the name of God as a number would be irreverent.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 1:13:53 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Won_by_One
So if I were to become a Messianic Christian, would I be expected to do this? While I am for those who believe it's irreverent to hyphenate God like that, I'm trying hard not to find offense in it b'c the Bible says neither offend nor be offended. But it's hard for me to accept in all my earthly imperfection.
Pardon me, Messianic Jew.
You already have accepted this practice, Your English translations reflect this practice.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 1:30:13 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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quote:
You already have accepted this practice, Your English translations reflect this practice.
I'm sorry, that went over my head. You lost me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: p31woman
quote:
So if I were to become a Messianic Christian, would I be expected to do this?
Not at all. But, you might find that if you were to become a member of a Messianic congregation whose main focus is outreach to the local Jewish community (Rom. 1:16), and you yourself have a deep love for the Jewish people and reaching them with the good news about the Jewish Messiah, and you see "G-d" in the weekly bulletin and on the PowerPoint screen every week... it really just becomes second-nature. 
I used to get their newsletter shortly after I became a Christian. You don't have to be Jewish do you? I thought I was when I found out my great grandfather was Russian Jew but I'm told by Jewish law, I'm not at all Jewish, that my mother had to have been Jewish. It's confusing to me. But I do have a great love for the Jewish people as a whole and I'm still interested in learning more about it.
_____________________________
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and they house--Acts 16:31
Looking to buy1991 Won by One (out of) print by Argus Communications (see avatar) Leave PM here
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 2:14:09 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Won_by_One
quote:
You already have accepted this practice, Your English translations reflect this practice.
I'm sorry, that went over my head. You lost me.
Every major English translation of the bible has employed exactly the same practice in the translation of God's name. As DaveW correctly pointed out, in Jewish communities whenever the Bible is read (in Hebrew) the reader always verbally substitutes adonai (or hashem) for 'YHWH'. 'Adonai' simply means 'my Lord' (in the Majestic Plural). If you look at the preface of almost any English bible you will find that they always substitute 'Lord' whenever they translate 'YWHY'; this has historically been done based on the same Jewish tradition of verbally substituting 'adonai'.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 2:35:30 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
I thought I was when I found out my great grandfather was Russian Jew but I'm told by Jewish law, I'm not at all Jewish, that my mother had to have been Jewish. It's confusing to me. But I do have a great love for the Jewish people as a whole and I'm still interested in learning more about it. Reform Judiasm probably would accept you as a Jew, but conservative and orthodox would not. In messianic circles, it would vary from congregation to congregation.
If you were one step closer (grandparent instead of great grandparent either side) you would be accepted as a Jewish citizen of Israel under the law of return. And as of April, they can no longer exclude someone for being Messianic! YAY GOD!!!
Find a synagogue near your place and take a class. Most will offer courses (for $$ of course) on basic Judiasm.
_____________________________
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 2:47:01 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Won_by_One
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Every major English translation of the bible has employed exactly the same practice in the translation of God's name. As DaveW correctly pointed out, in Jewish communities whenever the Bible is read (in Hebrew) the reader always verbally substitutes adonai (or hashem) for 'YHWH'. 'Adonai' simply means 'my Lord' (in the Majestic Plural). If you look at the preface of almost any English bible you will find that they always substitute 'Lord' whenever they translate 'YWHY'; this has historically been done based on the same Jewish tradition of verbally substituting 'adonai'.
Ok this is even further over my head than I thought. I thought Yahweh was His actual name so how can writing out his name be more acceptable than writing His title, 'God'? I'm not being sarcastic, believe me. I'm really interested in this--trying to understand. I guess I'm easily confused sometimes. LOL 
For those who follow this practice (I do not), it is not more acceptable, it is less. As I pointed out in a previous post they will substitute "YY" or "Hashem" to avoid writing God's Hebrew name.
quote:
Seriously, I just don't see saying His name as being in vain if you're fellowshipping as we do on here. Blankdammit, and such, is using His name in vain. But I dont want to come across as arguing when I'm just trying to understand so I'll just take your word for it. Thank you all for your thought-provoking and informative responses.
I agree with you here (mostly); however, I do understand that sometimes "hedges" are a good thing. For example, it is a really good idea for an alcoholic to not touch a drop of alcohol; that "law" is not something we are told to do in scripture and shouldn't be something that every believer is expected to do, but for some believers it is definitely the right "hedge" for them to have in their life. I see this issue as something sort of similar (for different reasons). When I read from the Hebrew text I always follow the tradition of substituting 'adonai' (mostly out of respect for the Jewish believers that I often read with (not many gentiles know Hebrew)), I recognize and have no problem with the fact that our translations reflect this same tradition, and I respect the reverence of God that this tradition emphasizes. However, for me that is where it stops, I am not Jewish, nor am I Messianic, and do not have any desire to practice all of the additional "hedge" laws of Judaism. I have no problem with those Christians (my brothers and sisters in Christ) who do practice these and other laws (like the dietary laws), unless they begin teaching these as laws that are required for Christian believers or even just for Messianic believers. As an optional choice I fully support it, as a requirement of faith I absolutely reject it.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/17/2008 2:58:54 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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Thank you, benelchi. That makes sense. Especially this:
quote:
I have no problem with those Christians (my brothers and sisters in Christ) who do practice these and other laws (like the dietary laws), unless they begin teaching these as laws that are required for Christian believers or even just for Messianic believers. As an optional choice I fully support it, as a requirement of faith I absolutely reject it.
_____________________________
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and they house--Acts 16:31
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 2:57:11 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I am one who also writes G-d rather than spelling out His office. It is not merely part of my tradition, but it is another way that I respect Him.
Have you noticed that in American society (and in others), people have little respect for His Name or office? Further, this is true of people who call themselves Christian. Such persons think nothing of using Messiah's name -- the one they even use in prayer! -- as an epithet or a curse word. Many people use the words "L-rd" and "G-d" in the same way, often mixing the latter with more cursing words. And some day, these very ones will stand in judgment before the One whose Name and/or office they use as a curse! A sobering thought.
Better it is to respect Him to such a point as to raise questions than to toss His Name and the name of His office about as though it is of no value.
Won_by_One, I want to thank you for your attitude. I can understand your initial thoughts very well, but you have been very gracious regarding those of us who use these terms.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 7:58:58 AM
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PromiseLander
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OK I get it now. Hyphenating the name or title shows respect or honor, or at least prevents us from misusing the name or title. OK... Starting today, I'm going to be using hyphenated words to address my wife! Won't she feel honored! I'll let you know tomorrow if I'm still married...
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 10:19:51 AM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
OK I get it now. Hyphenating the name or title shows respect or honor, or at least prevents us from misusing the name or title. OK... Starting today, I'm going to be using hyphenated words to address my wife! Won't she feel honored! I'll let you know tomorrow if I'm still married...
Has your wife told you in writing:
"You shall not take the name of the wife in vain, for your wife will not leave him unpunished who takes Her name in vain."
God did: "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain. (Exodus 20:7)
I don't hyphenate. But, unless it is obviously an insincere affectation I respect their efforts to keep God's commandments as they understand them. I have yet to encounter one who tried to force others to adopt it....or bad mouthed/made sarcastic comments about those who did not.
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 1:03:35 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
OK I get it now. Hyphenating the name or title shows respect or honor, or at least prevents us from misusing the name or title. OK... Starting today, I'm going to be using hyphenated words to address my wife! Won't she feel honored! I'll let you know tomorrow if I'm still married...
Well, if you really believe showing this kind of respect is wrong, you probably need to take out a pen and fix all of the places in your bible where the translators of your bible made the same kind of substitution for God's name. Or, you could just go out and get a New World Translation, the JW's also believe showing this king of respect for God's name is wrong and they have made those same changes for you (and even added a few extra that weren't in the original text); however, that does come at a price because that translation shows no respect for the original language, vocabulary or grammar i.e the heart of God's word.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 1:06:38 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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quote:
you probably need to take out a pen and fix all of the places in your bible where the translators of your bible made the same kind of substitution for God's name.
Just curious since all my Bibles are at least 7 years old--is this something new? I've had many Bibles over the past 20 years and still have most. Not one hyphenates 'God'.
_____________________________
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and they house--Acts 16:31
Looking to buy1991 Won by One (out of) print by Argus Communications (see avatar) Leave PM here
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 1:22:05 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Won_by_One
quote:
you probably need to take out a pen and fix all of the places in your bible where the translators of your bible made the same kind of substitution for God's name.
Just curious since all my Bibles are at least 7 years old--is this something new? I've had many Bibles over the past 20 years and still have most. Not one hyphenates 'God'.
In Hebrew when a text is read that contains God's name 'YHWH' (English 'Jehovah' or 'Yahweh'), a verbal substitution of (Adonai or sometimes Hashem) is made. "Adon" in Hebrew is "Lord", and most translators have followed the same practice of Substituting "Lord" for the name "Yahweh" in their translations based on this same tradition. The substitution of 'G-d' for 'God' is done for the exact same reason as 'Lord' is substituted for 'Yahweh' in your bible. It might help you to understand if you realize that 'YHWH' is derived from 'HYH' (the Hebrew verb 'to be') as is also 'eheyeh' (I AM); it does not directly translate to the Hebrew word 'Lord'.
< Message edited by benelchi -- 6/18/2008 1:28:30 PM >
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 1:32:58 PM
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_CANCELLED_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
In Hebrew when a text is read that contains God's name 'YHWH' (English 'Jehovah' or 'Yahweh'), a verbal substitution of (Adonai or sometimes Hashem) is made. "Adon" in Hebrew is "Lord", and most translators have followed the same practice of Substituting "Lord" for the name "Yahweh" in their translations based on this same tradition. The substitution of 'G-d' for 'God' is done for the exact same reason as 'Lord' is substituted for 'Yahweh' in your bible. It might help you to understand if you realize that 'YHWH' is derived from 'HYH' (the Hebrew verb 'to be') as is also 'eheyeh' (I AM); it does not directly translate to the Hebrew word 'Lord'.
I understand all that. I'm asking if this is in only new Bibles as it's not the case in any of my own. But, as I said, all my Bibles are at least 7 years old. To reiterate, none of my Bibles hyphenate like this.
_____________________________
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and they house--Acts 16:31
Looking to buy1991 Won by One (out of) print by Argus Communications (see avatar) Leave PM here
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 1:49:15 PM
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benelchi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Won_by_One
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
In Hebrew when a text is read that contains God's name 'YHWH' (English 'Jehovah' or 'Yahweh'), a verbal substitution of (Adonai or sometimes Hashem) is made. "Adon" in Hebrew is "Lord", and most translators have followed the same practice of Substituting "Lord" for the name "Yahweh" in their translations based on this same tradition. The substitution of 'G-d' for 'God' is done for the exact same reason as 'Lord' is substituted for 'Yahweh' in your bible. It might help you to understand if you realize that 'YHWH' is derived from 'HYH' (the Hebrew verb 'to be') as is also 'eheyeh' (I AM); it does not directly translate to the Hebrew word 'Lord'.
I understand all that. I'm asking if this is in only new Bibles as it's not the case in any of my own. But, as I said, all my Bibles are at least 7 years old. To reiterate, none of my Bibles hyphenate like this.
No, your bible won't have 'G-d' in it, nor will a new one have 'G-d' in it.
What your bible will almost certainly have is 'Lord' substituted everywhere the original text has 'Jehovah'; this is the substitution that most bibles do have, and this substitution is made for the same reason that Jewish believers often substitute 'G-d' for 'God'. The substitution of 'Lord' for 'Jehovah' is actually a reflection of the exact same Jewish practice of substituting 'Lord' for 'Jehovah' in Hebrew when reading the text.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 1:49:30 PM
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PromiseLander
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Look I don't see this as a salvation issue... The way I see it, it seems to be disrespectful to hyphenate El Elyon or use substitutionary words in lieu of Tsaddiq. I use the names of Kadosh in my prayer life as well as in conversations, and have found great blessing in the meanings behind those names. (here's a great reference for that by the way: http://ldolphin.org/Names.html )
The question at hand really is whether or not we are being disrespectful or irreverant in doing so. Did God require that we not use one of His names in writing or speech? Well, no. So there is a bigger issue then. If you're so worried about speaking or writing irreverantly about Elohim that you must use a hyphenation, then don't speak or write at all. Even though one may hyphenate the word, the meaning is the same - ie, hyphenation does not prevent irreverance; it just disguises it.
All one needs to do is dive headfirst into the meaning behind the names of God and you will most certainly be blessed and desire to share them out of reverence and awe of Him!
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 1:57:51 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
What your bible will almost certainly have is 'Lord' substituted everywhere the original text has 'Jehovah'; this is the substitution that most bibles do have, No the original text does not have 'Jehovah,' it has the letters yud hay vav hay.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 2:04:41 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2975
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quote:
Look I don't see this as a salvation issue...
Absolutely agreed.
I generally don't follow this practice myself, but I do have respect for those who do (as long as they don't make it into a salvation issue either); however, when I read in Hebrew I do follow this practice because almost anyone I would read with is Jewish (and most are not Christians), and not doing so would be offensive to them. However, I am just as troubled by Christians who want to turn this into an issue because people following this practice, as I am those who want to turn this into an issue because people do not following this practice. It doesn't matter that much, and there is no biblical mandate one way or the other; it is a choice of personal conscience and no one should challenge that choice one way or the other. Asking questions about it is to be encouraged, telling someone they are wrong is not.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 2:06:46 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2975
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
What your bible will almost certainly have is 'Lord' substituted everywhere the original text has 'Jehovah'; this is the substitution that most bibles do have, No the original text does not have 'Jehovah,' it has the letters yud hay vav hay.
I know that!
I even no that the 'J' is a bad phonetic transliteration; however, I chose to use 'Jehovah' in this case because it is the most widely known and understood transliteration of yod-hey-vav-hey. And there seemed to be a little confusion about the point I was trying to make.
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RE: "G-d" - 6/18/2008 2:13:20 PM
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BerianAardvark
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quote:
I understand all that. I'm asking if this is in only new Bibles as it's not the case in any of my own. But, as I said, all my Bibles are at least 7 years old. To reiterate, none of my Bibles hyphenate like this.
If you look in the front of most Bibles (usually under the heading/title "Explanation of General Format" or "Principles of Translation" thus guaranteeing that no one will ever read it), the notation under "Proper names of God in the Old Testament"
A comment to the effect that where YHWH occurs, it will be shown in the text as LORD (using small caps for the ord part...which the message blank wont copy) except for when YHWH is used next to Adoni (which is Hebrew for Lord, and so translated) so YHWH gets translated God there to avoid confusion....Lord God.
This is pretty standard in all translations, KJV through the most modern, so much so that some translations that use it don't even bother to explain it....look for LORD (only small caps of the last three letters) to see if yours does.
This is probably what benelchi (and others) meant when they said things like:
quote:
all of the places in your bible where the translators of your bible made the same kind of substitution for God's name
Very few bibles put YHWH in the OT even though it does appear there. Find a copy of the Bible with embedded Strong's numbers and you will see H3068 יהוה is the number assigned to YHWH, the KJV concordance says Total KJV Occurrences are 6528
it is translated LORD, 6412 times, lord’s 108 times, god 4 times and jehovah 4 times (apparently they weren't completely consistent).
Tim
_____________________________
The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted - Martin Luther
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