Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (Full Version)

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colliefan -> Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/16/2008 10:41:53 PM)

Luke 4:16 - 19 (ESV) 16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read. 17And the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written, 18 £“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”


What sort of markings did Jews use to find the place in the Torah?



BibleL7 -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 5:59:10 AM)

Well it would not have been too difficult particularly for God since He inspired it to be written. Yet there are a few things that are much different then from now. One thing is you will notice that they handed Him the scroll of the Prophet of Isaiah which would have been just Isaiah not the whole Bible. Second there would not have been pages as we have but a scroll which would be opened landscape style (side to side) not top to bottom. These scrolls would be written on in columns of a few inches wide. So it could be easy if you had read it before to have an idea of which column you were looking for. But then I will still say for God the author it would be very easy to find whatever passage He wanted.



Doc65 -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 9:20:02 AM)

Also, some scholars think that there may have been a type of "lectionary" used in the synagogues, appointing certain readings for certain days. Since it was his custome to go to the synagogue, he would have known where to find it...

Of course, as L7 pointed out, the fact that it was the Word of God and He, being God Incarnate, probably didn't even have to look to know what hHe was reading...

[:D]



rcjames -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 10:06:39 AM)

Anyone who spends a lot of time in the Word can open their Bible to within 1 very few pages of where they are wanting to read.

That Christ could take the book of Isaiah and open it to a particular place does not cause me wonderment.

Now if I was a person who Bible's pages were still sticking together because that had not been read and turned over and over and over; then it might seem un-doable.

It does not take a lot of snap to figure who in my congregation spends time in the Word; as when I give a Scripture during a sermon some just turn to it and some never do find it.

Thanks
RC



colliefan -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 1:02:36 PM)

Let me rephrase my question; how would the average rabbi find a selected passage in the Torah? Wouldn't a single scroll contain all books? When the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah was this from a single scroll?



rcjames -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 2:28:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Let me rephrase my question; how would the average rabbi find a selected passage in the Torah? Wouldn't a single scroll contain all books? When the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah was this from a single scroll?


Well I would think the average Rabbi in the time of Jesus would have spent most of thier time in the Mishna or some other secondary writings instead of the original Word of God.

I would presume the Eunich would probable have had a single scroll of Isaiah. I base this on the fact that the scrolls of the day were hand written and not available in small print to make having all the Torah, Prophets, etc. available in one giant volumn of text.

Thanks
RC



Lapidoth -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 2:51:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Let me rephrase my question; how would the average rabbi find a selected passage in the Torah? Wouldn't a single scroll contain all books? When the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah was this from a single scroll?


RC is right.

History reveals that a Jewish person would spend so much time in the scriptures
they would recognize and find passages easily enough.

Also, if you follow the Lord, you find He is the master at timing.
Yeshua would be chosen to read as was and is the custom and
the passage would already be presented for the time of reading.
There were and are also certain people in charge of the scroll for
the particular service.

When Yeshua (Jesus) spoke of what we think were "good stories"
He was actually speaking of relevant things to the Feast Days of God.
If you know and understand the moedim you can recognize it
even in the English versions.

So, Yeshua spent His time studying and praying.
He was very familiar with the Torah (first five books).
He was very familiar with the Prophets (as He grouped them with the Torah).

He would have been given a scroll at a prescribed place to read.

The Eunuch was reading the scroll of Isaiah. Not the Bible.
Even we couldn't afford to purchase a scroll the way it's made and prepared.
Only the wealthy had their own scroll. The "king" was required to have his own
so he could rule according to God's rules.

Boy, if the governments would do that there'd be such change in the world.

The common people came every seventh year and "heard" the Torah read.
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
They didn't take it as lightly as we do.

Oh, yeah, I've heard that all my life!

They stood for hours and hours listening to the Word of God read by the
leader and then the interpretations by the priests as the dispersed spoke
in the language of the lands they were in.

Ezra found the scrolls, called for an assembly, read the scrolls, and the
priests interpreted and expounded what Ezra said.

Can't we spend a few hours in our A/C houses and churches and really "listen?"

Once in a while I'll say, "Let's turn to the book of Hezekiah." LOL.
and then I watch as some flip through their Bible looking for it.



wshepherd -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 2:55:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Let me rephrase my question; how would the average rabbi find a selected passage in the Torah? Wouldn't a single scroll contain all books? When the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah was this from a single scroll?


No, a single scroll does not contain all the books. If you were to look into an Ark in a synagogue today, you would find not one, but several Torah scrolls, each containing various books of the TaNaKh, some larger, some smaller than others, but all treated with honor and respect because of Who the Author is.



Lapidoth -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 3:01:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wshepherd

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Let me rephrase my question; how would the average rabbi find a selected passage in the Torah? Wouldn't a single scroll contain all books? When the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah was this from a single scroll?


No, a single scroll does not contain all the books. If you were to look into an Ark in a synagogue today, you would find not one, but several Torah scrolls, each containing various books of the TaNaKh, some larger, some smaller than others, but all treated with honor and respect because of Who the Author is.


LOL. True.
I don't have Hebrew scrolls, but I have made some
home made scrolls of the Gospels. John lays on the
typical table up front.

When we do Torah Cycle readings, I like to put the Torah portion,
the haftorah portion and the NT portion in a scroll and I unroll it as I read.
When I preach and teach, I use the "book."



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 5:07:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc65


Of course, as L7 pointed out, the fact that it was the Word of God and He, being God Incarnate, probably didn't even have to look to know what hHe was reading...

[:D]


And He was reading about Himself[sm=angel.gif]



GrahamCracker -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 5:41:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

Let me rephrase my question; how would the average rabbi find a selected passage in the Torah? Wouldn't a single scroll contain all books? When the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from Isaiah was this from a single scroll?


No. Their "paper" was much thicker than ours, for one thing. And they did not put the entire OT Torah in a single scroll. Whether or not this was possible, I don't know. But I seriously doubt that they could have done so.

Often some of the smaller smaller books were contained together in a single scroll. That's probably why some of the NT writers misidentified passages as to the book it came from. They would name the prophet/book that was the largest and quote the reference as it came came from the better known author--even though the quote may have come from a lesser known author collected in the same scroll.

BTW, some of the others, including RCJames, is right. Even without chapter and verse markings, it would not be too difficult for a well read scribe or religious person to find a particular passage. He simply would not be able to give the verse reference, but he could quote a portion or short phrase identifying the major section. Those familiar with it would know which section he was talking about without even seeing it.



9drtr -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 8:10:39 PM)

People in a predominantly oral culture have memories that people in the modern world can't begin to imagine. It would be normal for a devout Jew of the time to be able to quote hundreds of consecutive verses at will. Any literate devout Jew could have found any passage he wanted to easily and very quickly.



colliefan -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 9:37:23 PM)

quote:


People in a predominantly oral culture have memories that people in the modern world can't begin to imagine. It would be normal for a devout Jew of the time to be able to quote hundreds of consecutive verses at will. Any literate devout Jew could have found any passage he wanted to easily and very quickly.


On this I agree. Here we tend to have the attention span of a gnat.



Godhead -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/17/2008 11:32:18 PM)

Some believe that Jesus had never read the scriptures but knew them instinctively. I have never believed this, but as this verse proves, He would have always went to the local temple on the Sabbath to hear the Scriptures being read. He was so familiar with the scriptures that He knew exactly where to look. The lesson from this is that we all should be that familiar with the scriptures.



colliefan -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/18/2008 8:19:36 PM)

quote:

Some believe that Jesus had never read the scriptures but knew them instinctively


Then how do they handle this verse
Luke 2:52 (ESV) 52And Jesus increased in wisdom and in stature£ and in favor with God and man.



fiat_lux -> RE: Hiw did Jesus find the place when there were no verse markings (6/19/2008 4:37:50 PM)

quote:

Some believe that Jesus had never read the scriptures but knew them instinctively. I have never believed this, but as this verse proves, He would have always went to the local temple on the Sabbath to hear the Scriptures being read. He was so familiar with the scriptures that He knew exactly where to look. The lesson from this is that we all should be that familiar with the scriptures.

I don't know whether he knew them instinctively, but to my knowledge 9drtr is correct above. In a predominantly oral culture where you can't just pull a book off the shelf every few minutes, or glance at a Wikipedia entry (which is becoming the modern-day equivalent, I suppose), or some such, you have to know what you're looking for by memory, and people generally can.

Even today our memories are a little better than we give them credit for - we're just not used to using them. Where we memorize a book, a chapter, and a verse number, they memorized a couple sentences. It's not an impossible leap, just one that takes the practice of being immersed in a culture reliant on memory instead of reliant on instant memory aids.

The scroll in question wouldn't have been all of the OT, and if Jesus was familiar with Isaiah (which I assume he was), he would have known generally in which part to look already, even without a verse marking. It wouldn't take long, I think, since obviously he knew in advance what he was going to say on that occasion anyways.



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