Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (Full Version)

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Covaan_Meshuga -> Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/17/2008 5:37:56 PM)

It comes up more often than I would like, and the whole situation is confusing to me. The question is how should one treat a "ministry leader" who remains a ministry leader in a church I have little to do with, so I see him once to three times yearly because of circumstancs that cannot be avoided.

The reason I question how he should be treated is because he did so much damage to several members of my family, a pastor, a large number of other persons, and to me. He has never made any of these acts right with me or anyone in my family of whom I am aware. I also just remembered that he technically owes my husband (and me) money from 19 - 17 years ago, but we don't expect to ever see it, so I had forgotten about it.

Two Scriptures that easily come to mind are:
And forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Pursue peace with all

But there are others I can't take the time to write down right now which have to do with those who damage believers, do not seek forgiveness & restitution, etc.

I will have to get back to this later . . . .



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/17/2008 7:27:43 PM)

I have probably said enough above. I just recognize that I would like to never have another thing to do with this man, because I see him as evil, whether or not he is in a ministry. I am concerned about how I feel, the idea that I still have feelings regarding what he did to all of us as well as others I cannot mention.

Sometimes, what I am supposed to do, how I am to respond, what I am to continue to think is confusing. Fortunately, I don't think of him at all, when he and his family members are not in my presence.

I don't know . . . maybe this is of no consequence.

But maybe it is . . . .

Seriously, I don't want to ever have to stand before my G-d with any stuff I could have taken care of, but I was just too stubborn.



Doc65 -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/17/2008 8:08:45 PM)

Covaan,
I think that you're right to forgive but that doesn't necessarily mean that you should forget what he has done to you and your family - to do so would be the same as allowing him to conitnue to commit the same sins against others, especially since he is in the ministry and operates in a position of authority...perhaps Matt. 18:15-17 is the best solution - at least then you can say that you did as Christ said we should (and maybe it would give you a sense of closure...):

quote:

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


Hope this helps...blessings on your day!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/17/2008 8:21:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doc65
Covaan,
I think that you're right to forgive but that doesn't necessarily mean that you should forget what he has done to you and your family - to do so would be the same as allowing him to conitnue to commit the same sins against others, especially since he is in the ministry and operates in a position of authority...perhaps Matt. 18:15-17 is the best solution - at least then you can say that you did as Christ said we should (and maybe it would give you a sense of closure...):

quote:

15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.


Hope this helps...blessings on your day!

...Except I don't feel like I have forgiven. When I see him, I purposely do not look his way and I basically act like he doesn't exist. I was kind to his wife, however; I see her as a victim, just as I see his children.

When all this was happening, I tried to talk to them, but they literally laughed at my attempts. Since the pastor knew all about it, I tried to talk to him, but he brushed me off and told me, specifically, to stay out of it, let them alone, and stop interfering. I cannot even fully describe the damage that resulted, because the pastor gave him carte blanche -- literally. It was the most painful experience I have ever been through, all-inclusive.

Fortunately, I no longer deal with the church. But at this point, when I see him again, the feelings become raw again.



BibleL7 -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 9:07:30 AM)

Pray about it ask the Lord to help you to forgive. If this took place long time ago then is too late to get resolved especially if the church would not discepline. Count the money as loss to gain experience. Pray for anybody going to such a church. Scriptures tell us to forgive and I would hazard to guess that the guy is not bothered at all. Seems we sometimes forget that the command to forgive is more for our sake. We can not change the past, we can however change how we react to it with His help. Not sure if this helps but know that the Lord will deal with this person. Will keep ya in prayer.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 12:52:50 PM)

I'm trying. I don't know how.

I keep thinking about how our L-rd forgave the murderous people around Him, and I remember that He told us to walk the walk he walked, but I don't know how to be like Him in this.

I guess I need patience with this issue.



JEGUINN -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 2:26:15 PM)

just wondering how things were...have you involved your husband in these thoughts? What is his taken on everything?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 2:37:42 PM)

Well, during the last time I saw this guy, I never really "saw" him; I just knew basically where he was and stayed out of his way.

No, I haven't talked about it with my husband in years. He is dealing with his own stuff, and I don't like to add to that. In fact, I have decided that unless I have something nice to say about the old church, which is nearly impossible, I will not talk about it to him at all.



bluestone -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 2:47:50 PM)

I have a situation that seems similar. I run into the guy at funerals and weddings[8|]

I stopped thinking of this guy as a ministry leader long ago.

I have found that forgiveness for us humans is sometimes a process that takes place over years. I have to constantly fight a root of bitterness, pray a LOT, and let time work towards healing.

I think I have forgiven, then I see this person again, and it all comes bubbling up. Like heartburn you don't expect, since you have avoided the wrong foods.[;)]

If you have been is seriously dangerous church situations, I think you can have a mild form of post traumatic stress disorder. Dealing with the hurt and pain comes before complete healing.



JEGUINN -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 3:43:57 PM)

I was just curious about the whole husband thing...wondered if he was struggling as well.

anyway...i think in situations like this where it seems we can't get control over our feelings over something, the enemy will use it to take our eyes off the Lord. On the flip side...when we are so desperatley in need of God's strength when faced w/ situations like this, the only thing we can do is lay it at his feet. If you know you've forgiven him through Christ's strength (even though every ounce of your feelings are say not), then you have...period...end of story. Cling to what is pure and noble and true and trust that Christ has you tightly in His grasp. The enemy does not have a hold over you.

We must not allow our emotions and feelings dictate our thoughts and actions. Allowing them to consume our thoughts only distracts us from God...SEEK HIS FACE...



colliefan -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 4:07:47 PM)

quote:

No, I haven't talked about it with my husband in years. He is dealing with his own stuff, and I don't like to add to that.


OK, I am hopelessly single and all I have learned about marriage comes from singles seminars and Promise Keeper events so take my question for what it is worth.

But in marriage is their such a thing as one's own stuff?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 5:01:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:

No, I haven't talked about it with my husband in years. He is dealing with his own stuff, and I don't like to add to that.


OK, I am hopelessly single and all I have learned about marriage comes from singles seminars and Promise Keeper events so take my question for what it is worth.

But in marriage is their such a thing as one's own stuff?


Long story, Colliefan. To keep it short, we deal with the old church and its members differently. First, they kicked me out, not him. I would have been very upset if he had left because of what they did to me, so a year and a half later, he left for his own reasons.

Later, I found an article on Wikipedia, written by a non-member and non-attender of that organization, praising the organization highly. As a result, I dug into their actual history and found some very disturbing things in it. When I tried to talk about what I had learned, he didn't want to hear about it, because he still idolizes the religion's earlier members. So I learned to say nothing.

Lot more to it, but I keep erasing things. [8|] I will close my answer with this: We were adults with teenagers when we married. I had been single for 10 years before we married. I recognize when things are his own issues and other things are my own. I need to leave it there.



mvic -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/20/2008 7:32:33 PM)

Hi Covaan_Meshuga,

Forgiveness is a very difficult thing for us humans. It is in our nature when hurt to feel the raw pain and bitterness for years after the event. Of course, Jesus said: Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspassed against us.

But when He comes to forgive us, I hope He'll realise that we're only human and so find it difficult to forgive. We're just not like Him, who forgave those who nailed Him to the Cross.

Forgetting is difficult too. It's not in our nature to forget easily either.

So what do we do?

I find the best way to forgive is by handing the whole situation to God. I say to Him: You know what's happened. You know how I've been hurt. Now please help ease away my pain; and in doing so, teach me to forgive as your Son did.

I had a bad experience with a man of the cloth some years ago. It's still fresh in my mind even though he moved to another church in another town. I suppose I've forgiven him. Although the memory still keeps coming back from time to time. When this happens do you know what I do?

I promise myself that I'll pick up where we left off when we both meet in Heaven.

Try it ... it might work!



KnowJesus -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/21/2008 2:04:47 AM)

Your story sounds similiar to what we went through three years ago. Ask the Lord to teach you to reach out in love to him, regardless of his former offenses. When you see him pray for him. When you think of him, pray for him. Don't allow your heart to become bitter. See him as one created by God for his purpose. Refrain from seeing him as an ememy. Even the worst of the worst can be born again in Christ.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/21/2008 9:39:04 PM)

I really appreciate your advice and the PMs I have received from one other, with regard to this situation. I am thinking that the answers i am receiving on CW are a gift from G-d. I am feeling more and more, day by day, that I can let this go, giving it to G-d, and stopping holding the man responsible.

I still have a big question . Huge, to me.

I am thinking. I present it for your thoughts:
Forgiveness does not mean forgetting that it happened. (To forget, I would have to wipe out the memory of several years of my life, my daughter's, my grandson's, the man's own children's, etc.)

Am I right?

But does forgiveness mean I never bring it up again in contexts of warning others about similar behavior? Does it mean it is never spoken of again for any reason or that I stop holding the man responsible and give over my blaming, anger, and disdain to G-d?



funny_girl -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/21/2008 10:03:15 PM)

A wonderful book that helped me learn how to forgive those that hurt me the deepest was "Total Forgiveness" by R.T. Kendall. It's an easy read and super helpful, thank you Jesus!

When you've forgiven you let them off the hook as if it never happened. You can do it because you recognize that you too have done rotten things towards others, especially the Lord, and you wouldn't want Jesus bringing up your past, right? I know I've done some pretty embarrassing things that I'm glad God has covered me for. That doesn't mean it still doesn't hurt or that you forget, but the hurt feelings will fade away with time.

The test that you've forgiven is if you'll let the offender come into your presence. Think of Joseph. He could of shamed and humiliated his brothers but instead he hid their wrong doing from the world. God restored Joseph's family.

You're on the right track sweety.



mvic -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/21/2008 10:05:59 PM)

Hi Covaan_Meshuga,

First a warning: I'm not the cleverest or wisest person ever ... so test what I say with others.

Forgiveness may happen slowly, by the grace of God. As I said earlier - hand the situation to Him.

But forgetting will be impossible. Whatever happened is imprinted in your mind for evermore. Do you think Jesus forgot what happened to Him on the Cross? He forgave out of love - but He still bears the scars. Ask Thomas about them - He saw them.

So, you'll never forget. Most probably you'll still feel the pain for years to come. I'm sorry about that and I'll pray for you. I still remember the incident with the man of the cloth (see previous post). How can I forget it since it affected me and other people too.

Now about the "bringing it up again" part of your question. By all means bring it up to God when the pain comes back again and you can no longer bear it.

Also bring it up in situations where you feel you need to warn relatives or friends. Just like I did in my situation. But do not mention names or details of the situation. You owe it to others to warn them of similar situations. But they don't need to know the details.

If you were to mention names of those involved and details of what happened then it shows that you have not really forgiven. Some might even interpret your actions as spite and revenge; and misunderstand your well-meaning warnings to protect them. There's also the danger that your words will be mis-interpreted and mis-quoted and even go back to the individual concerned. Do you really want that?



BibleL7 -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/22/2008 3:49:36 AM)

When forgiving someone a wrong that was not repented of it takes just prayer and asking the Lord to help you to pray for the person to come into a right relationship with the Lord. Ask the Lord to take away any feelings of anger or bitterness. Until the Lord takes us we will not be able to forget such problems yet we do not need to be bitter or angry about it. You most definitely should if you see similar situation with friend let them know of your experience not getting into particulars unless need be but you should find that the bitterness and anger will not be there and be sure it is to help that person and not against the situation if that makes sense. still keeping you in prayer



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/22/2008 9:18:26 PM)

Well, when my husband and I went out for lunch today, we did discuss this some. I did talk to him about what I was thinking in regard to thinking that I am ready to forgive.

I seriously think I am ready and that G-d will be there for me, to make it real. The next thing is how. Because of past history, I think it will have to be face-to-face. Not sure where or when, but I believe it can happen.

Up to two weeks ago, I would not have thought so.

Again, thank you for your encouragement, advice, and book recommendations. I'll try to find the book tomorrow.



Cloak -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/22/2008 9:43:02 PM)

Abiyah~

How I can relate to your case honey! I've been hurt by a pastor whom I confided in in a matter who proved Not to be trustworthy and it took place only last year in the summer. I know how difficult and even agonizing to be wounded by someone who is in a place or leadership and someone you would NOT expect to hurt you. I spend the whole summer last year praying and asking God to help me to forgive him and after a period of grief and thru God's grace, I was able to forgive him and let him off the hook. How relieved I felt for doing that! [:)]

The good news is...I stopped going to that church almost ever since that event took place; so that helped me with the healing process.

I would highly recommend you to do the same. Charles Stanley wrote a good book about forgiveness that is good and will be able to help you go thru the grief process - I just can't recall the title of the book. I will try to find it on the web and get back to you.



Cloak -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/22/2008 9:51:07 PM)

Here we go: "The Gift of Forgiveness" By Charles Stanley. A read good read that will help you overcome anger and bitterness from one of the best Christian writers.

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers {{{Abiyah}}}

Blessings!



CoeurdeLeon -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/22/2008 10:05:52 PM)

Once in dealing with how to forgive someone I had a momentary flash of sanity.[;)] I realized that, no matter what that person had done to me, how much they had hurt and damaged me, Jesus paid the price for that, too.

He paid it. And I could safely leave that person and the whole matter in His hands. It no longer had anything to do with me.

Freedom!

As for forgetting, nope, doesn't happen. But it did quit hurting and affecting me.

I also think it is good and right to bring it up when a warning is necessary or when it would be helpful for someone else. If, however, bringing it up strokes something in me, then I have done wrong.



BibleL7 -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/24/2008 4:13:27 AM)

Will keep you in prayer May the LORD bless you mightily and strengthen you in your endeavor.



DaveW -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/24/2008 6:45:28 AM)

Covaan, have you read Asher (Kieth) Intrater's book "Covenant Relationships?" If not, get a copy and read it. It adresses your situation in better detail that what can happen in this forum.

http://www.messianicjewish.net/cgi-bin/webstore/quikstore.cgi?category=tikkun_books&page=webstore.html&search=yes



bluestone -> RE: Not sure how to handle this occasional situation (6/24/2008 9:01:02 AM)

I want to add that we are not commanded to forget. Forgetting is unhealthy, for it would mean we could be in a similar situation, and the offense or hurt happen over again.

Memory is a fence that helps guard ourselves from further repeated injury.



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