what are "bible-believing" churches? (Full Version)

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mayfly -> what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/18/2008 3:36:14 AM)

And how do they differ from other kinds of churches? I've heard that term a bit on this forum and I'm not really familiar with it.

I spent my formative years attending an Anglican church (high Anglican), and I've been going to a Baptist church since I met my FH--are those considered "bible-believing", or is it more to do with the individual church or what?



BerianAardvark -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/18/2008 4:10:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mayfly

And how do they differ from other kinds of churches? I've heard that term a bit on this forum and I'm not really familiar with it.

I spent my formative years attending an Anglican church (high Anglican), and I've been going to a Baptist church since I met my FH--are those considered "bible-believing", or is it more to do with the individual church or what?


At its simplest level a "Bible believing" church is one that has as a matter of faith that the Bible is the Word of God inspired and without error in Its original manuscripts. It is considered by them to be their only source of authority in matters of faith, conduct and truth.

Just because a denomination makes that claim doesn't insure that their doctrine is in line with it, same with idividual pastors/congregations.

Tim



timf -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/18/2008 7:35:59 AM)

what are "bible-believing" churches?

Churches that have decided that the Bible is true. Sometimes it also means that the Bible should be followed for everyday life.

Because of the popularity of the Bible, those who would attack it often do so in subtle ways. A common way is to say that the Bible was relevant to a primitive culture and time, but now that we are more "advanced" we need to interpret it in a more modern way.

Some of these modern ways are evolution, homosexuality, and abortion. Since those who follow modern ways seek to justify it through the Bible, they have to do quite a lot of "interpretation", almost as much as the Jehovah's Witnesses do to "prove" that Jesus isn't God.



rcjames -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/18/2008 8:02:27 AM)

Bible believing Churches are those whose doctrine is based on the Bible (usually the New Testament) and shun doctrines based on traditions, Early Church Fathers, etc.

In other words "If its not in the New Testament, then we are not going to do it.

Thsnks
RC



BerianAardvark -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/18/2008 10:04:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Bible believing Churches are those whose doctrine is based on the Bible (usually the New Testament) and shun doctrines based on traditions, Early Church Fathers, etc.

In other words "If its not in the New Testament, then we are not going to do it.

Thsnks
RC

As the old (and dreadfully sacrilegious) song goes, "It ain't necessarily so."

I am attending a Bible believing church (and have attended others) their emphasis is New Testament, true, we are Christians, not Jews.
However, it is also stressed that the roots of Christianity are found in the Old Testament, and we spend time there if for no other reason than to be able to "connect the dots" and be able to like Philip:
The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. (Acts 8:34-35) (the passage was from Isaiah as I am sure you know).

And, of course we would also like to be like Jesus and be able to: Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. (Luke 24:25-27)

As to traditions, Early Church Fathers, etc., we try to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and examine them in the light of scripture. I for one have read the writings of Polycarp, Iraneous, Tertulian, Ignatius of Antioch, Augustine and so on (might not always spell their names right, but have read them) They cast great light on the thinking and teachings of the earliest days of the church. But they are not inspired, scripture is, and where they (or anything else) departs from scripture, it not scripture that must bow to them, but they to scripture.

Just my opinion, your millage may vary.

Tim



BibleL7 -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/20/2008 6:28:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mayfly

And how do they differ from other kinds of churches? I've heard that term a bit on this forum and I'm not really familiar with it.

I spent my formative years attending an Anglican church (high Anglican), and I've been going to a Baptist church since I met my FH--are those considered "bible-believing", or is it more to do with the individual church or what?


You will probably get a lot of different answers on this so I will add my pennies worth. A "bible believing church" would be any congregation which believes the Bible to be true and the basis of their beliefs. The should believe that sin is sin and that we find out what is sin by the Bible not society. They will preach the Bible from pulpit and believe that God spoke to us thru the Bible and it is the basis for how we know His will and what we use to live our lives by. The two churches you mentioned could be bible believing. How they differ is they would not be liberal to allow just anybody in leadership even if they are actively in open sin. Or a church that follows traditions rather than the Bible.



DaveW -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/20/2008 7:08:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

In other words "If its not in the New Testament, then we are not going to do it.
That was the basis Ulrich Zwingli used to forbid musical instruments being used in church.

That is actually a dangerous viewpoint.

To me, a bible believing congregation has to accept ALL scripture (Genesis to Revelation) as "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." 2 Tim 3.16



rcjames -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/20/2008 9:02:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

In other words "If its not in the New Testament, then we are not going to do it.
That was the basis Ulrich Zwingli used to forbid musical instruments being used in church.

That is actually a dangerous viewpoint.

To me, a bible believing congregation has to accept ALL scripture (Genesis to Revelation) as "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." 2 Tim 3.16


Dave, are you saying that a Christian Church should keep all the rules and regulations of the Old Testament?

Thanks
RC



blue1914 -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/20/2008 10:24:01 AM)

Wow, what a question-What is a Bible Believing Church-the answer I've found time and again is that it all depends on who you ask.

I'm assuming that you are in England since you refer to the Anglican Church-though there is now a movement in America to move away from the covering of the Episcopal church and align again with the Anglican denomination I doubt that was true during your formative years. As I understand it, the Anglican Church in England is a much more fluid organization than the Episcopal church in America and a such there are a lot more differences of doctrine that many "evangelical" American Protestants would feel to be much closer to "blble believing" than those of the Episcopal church in America (for instance, I don't know that the Anglican Church allows gay clergy where the Episcopal Church in America does).

Long and short, the term "bible believing" has been used (often as a weapon in my opinion) to denote the quality of a church one is attending-is the "true word" being preached or are you just sitting under error, etc. etc. Which is right-I'd suggest asking the Leader (Jesus Christ)



mikejonesoftn -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/20/2008 11:47:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

In other words "If its not in the New Testament, then we are not going to do it.
That was the basis Ulrich Zwingli used to forbid musical instruments being used in church.

That is actually a dangerous viewpoint.

To me, a bible believing congregation has to accept ALL scripture (Genesis to Revelation) as "inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness." 2 Tim 3.16


Dave, are you saying that a Christian Church should keep all the rules and regulations of the Old Testament?

Thanks
RC


I think he means not the rules/laws of the OT but things that happened in it, like things that happened in Genesis for an example.



SonInMe1 -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/20/2008 7:29:25 PM)

The rules in the OT help to define waht sin is. I think that has great value.

Both Jesus and Paul used the OT often. I think that is important.

God didn't change. Jesus sacrifice on the cross wouldn't have had meaning if we don't understand what a sacrifice was, how the sacrifice was done, and for what purpose. These are outlined on the OT.

The OT foretold of Christ. Huge.

The perfection of Christ could not be defined if not for the OT. What made Christ perfect? He followed the rules. ( Not man made rules or man made interpretations of the rules, the true rules of the OT )

Some look to the NT as the only place for Grace. Grace has always been a part of who God is, in the OT and NT. If not for Grace, could David be called a man after God's own heart? Nope.

The difference between the OT and the NT? The messiah. Jesus as the final attonement.



DaveW -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/21/2008 11:45:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Dave, are you saying that a Christian Church should keep all the rules and regulations of the Old Testament?
RC, you know that is not my position. There are regulations that can only apply to Israel living in the Land of Israel. There are things that can only be done with a functioning priesthood and sacrifice system going on and that has not happened since 70 ad.

What I am saying is that the bible believing church needs to look at all those "rules and regulations" and determine if there is an application under the new covenant or not, each one individually. If there is an application, how is it to be done that is consistent with the New Covenant? Is there a moral we can glean from this rule? What does it teach us about God's likes and dislikes? IMO this is what should be the hallmark of a bible believing church. Throwing out the OT is throwing out 2/3 of the bible. That is NOT bible believing.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/22/2008 12:05:56 AM)

The "Bible-believing" church I was involved in was one that I kicked up my heals against, about 17 years ago, ran from and have never regretted my decision...



Ezra -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/22/2008 12:16:20 AM)

quote:

Throwing out the OT is throwing out 2/3 of the bible. That is NOT bible believing.


Firstly, to address the OP, a "Bible-believing" church is a church that is (1) evangelical (Gospel-preaching), (2) doctrinally sound (orthodox or fundamentalist), (3) following the NT pattern of assembly, worship and witness and (4) separated from traditionalism, sacramentalism, and sacerdotalism.

The Anglican "high church" has attempted to remain closely aligned with Roman Catholicism, therefore it would be a "traditionalist" church. As a matter of fact, in the 19th century Roman Catholicism made huge inroads into the Anglican Church, while at the same time theological liberalism also infected it. All of this is historical fact.

As regards the adherence to the OT pattern of worship, the issue is not whether 2/3rds of the Bible has been "thrown out" (which it is not) but whether or not the Mosaic system has been rendered obsolete through the finished work of Christ. The book of Hebrews makes it quite clear that the shadows of the Mosaic system have been set aside by God, and the realities of the Temple and its worship are now the realities in Heaven, where Christ is our great High Priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Since it is admitted that the entire Mosaic system cannot be observed because Israel is not in the land, the Temple has been destroyed, and the levitical pristhood has been abolished, then it should also be quite clear that God has made His Church (all the redeemed ones of God) His Temple, and they will neither worship in Jerusalem nor in Mount Gerezim, but rather worship in Spirit and in truth (Jn. 4:21-24), wherever two or three are gathered in the name of Christ.

The biggest difference between OT worship and NT worship is that in the OT there was a levitical priesthood, and the High Priest could enter into the Holy of Holies but once a year. Under the New Covenant all believers are a Royal Priesthood, and all have free access to the Mercy Seat in Heaven, which is now the Throne of Grace through the blood of the Everlasting Covenant -- the precious blood of Christ.



Annie64 -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/22/2008 1:04:42 AM)

I think churches, of which mine is one, who make the claim of Bible-believing vary so much that it can best be defined in the negative. I think that most people who claim "Bible-believing" for their church has an implied "as opposed to" after it. It is saying " My church is a Bible-believing church, as opposed to those churches who teach that the Bible isn't true." There are churches that teach that the Genesis creation story, and many of the miracles in the Bible, including the Resurrection of Jesus, the defining event for Christianity, didn't really happen. A Bible-believing church will shudder at that kind of teaching.



SonInMe1 -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/22/2008 9:14:30 PM)

I am wary of churches who seem to need to bash other churches. Just teach what you want to teach and stop berating other faiths.



BibleL7 -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/22/2008 11:47:37 PM)

Not all churches which are bible-believing are stuck up or prideful many are simply saying that they believe God gave us a way of knowing Him and we choose to believe God. As for so called bashing other churches I don't necessarily believe they are all doing that yet we do tend to try to steer people away from non bible believing as Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and nobody comes to the Father but by Him and if we just say any way is the way then we are liars and the truth would not be in us. I would prefer to see my friends and acquaintances in heaven so this does cause me to suggest they not follow false teachings.



GraceBro -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/23/2008 12:35:29 AM)

I believe the term "bible-believing" church is just another Christian cliche' used by Christans to add some validity to their place of fellowship. Every church says they believe in the Bible, even some cults will say it. Besides, what church is going to say they are a "bible-unbelieving" church? Saying you are a "bible-believing" church doesn't mean you are a "bible-understanding" or "bible-discerning" church. I would guess every christian on this board says they attend a "bible-believing" church. Yet, you will be hard pressed to find agreement on many issues aside from the foundational truths. Everybody claims their interpretation is the interpretation and then proceeds to list all the evidence they believe substantiates their claim.

My advice to you is to just take the phrase with a grain of salt and trust the Holy Spirit to help you discern whether or not a particular fellowship is teaching the the truth or not. After all, there is only one truth and every church can't possibly be the purveyors of it no matter what they say they "believe".

Grace and Peace



Annie64 -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/23/2008 1:06:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BibleL7

Not all churches which are bible-believing are stuck up or prideful many are simply saying that they believe God gave us a way of knowing Him and we choose to believe God. As for so called bashing other churches I don't necessarily believe they are all doing that yet we do tend to try to steer people away from non bible believing as Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life and nobody comes to the Father but by Him and if we just say any way is the way then we are liars and the truth would not be in us. I would prefer to see my friends and acquaintances in heaven so this does cause me to suggest they not follow false teachings.


I realize the way I said it sounded prideful and bashing other churches, and I guess the phrase is sometimes used that way, but this was what I meant. However I also agree with GraceBro that if a church uses the term it doesn't always mean that it will have sound doctrine.



deermousie -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/23/2008 10:47:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BerianAardvarkAs the old (and dreadfully sacrilegious) song goes, "It ain't necessarily so."

I am attending a Bible believing church (and have attended others) their emphasis is New Testament, true, we are Christians, not Jews.
However, it is also stressed that the roots of Christianity are found in the Old Testament, and we spend time there if for no other reason than to be able to "connect the dots" and be able to like Philip:
The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. (Acts 8:34-35) (the passage was from Isaiah as I am sure you know).

And, of course we would also like to be like Jesus and be able to: Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. (Luke 24:25-27)

As to traditions, Early Church Fathers, etc., we try to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and examine them in the light of scripture. I for one have read the writings of Polycarp, Iraneous, Tertulian, Ignatius of Antioch, Augustine and so on (might not always spell their names right, but have read them) They cast great light on the thinking and teachings of the earliest days of the church. But they are not inspired, scripture is, and where they (or anything else) departs from scripture, it not scripture that must bow to them, but they to scripture.

Just my opinion, your millage may vary.

Tim


Great answer, Tim!

The NT explains the OT, and God has had only one purpose throughout history: the salvation of sinful man. Great scholars have dealt with biblical issues through the millennia in ways that everyone can see (and contest if they want to) and there is great wisdom in some of them. Heresies have been refuted by councils and scholars and we ignore them to our hurt. For example, gnosticism was dealt with I think in the second century, but people are still getting carried off by it this century in at least one cult.

When I look at a Christian organization (like a parachurch) or a ministry or church, the first thing I look at is their statement of faith. If they don't think the Bible was God-breathed and error-less in the original documents and that Jesus is God who became a man and died to pay for sin, then I walk away with a clear conscience.

I see a "Bible believing" church as one that makes the Bible the organizing principle of what they believe. If it's in Scripture, they believe it, and if something isn't in Scripture, they have no doctrine on that subject.

Christians throughout history have died for this. We may join them someday; God knows. Either way, may He be glorified forever in our lives as we use the tool He has given us to know what to believe.



BerianAardvark -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/23/2008 5:39:25 PM)

quote:

deermousie: For example, gnosticism was dealt with I think in the second century, but people are still getting carried off by it this century in at least one cult.


Combating Gnosticism is often given for the the reason for the emphasis with which Gospel of John and the Book of 1st John were written. There were two forms of Gnosticism (though they were not specifically named).

Those who denied Christ's divinity (which is likely why the Gospel of John so strongly stresses Jesus' divinity).

And those who denied that Christ had a true body (which is why 1st John so strongly states that John saw, heard, touched and live in close contact with Jesus, and what he say heard, touched and learned was what he taught.) As not only an Apostle, but as one of the three closest of Jesus' twelve closest followers, what he said about such things would carry vast weight.

Both of these forms claimed "secret knowledge" that would be revealed to those who would join the followers of the teacher. (Attend his church/meetings, buy his tapes, read his books. I know no one does that sort of thing now, but they did then).

One sort of Gnostic believed that since all things physical are evil, that the body should be mortified and ignored.

Some people think that is was what Paul referred to when he wrote:Colossians 2:20-23
(20) If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, (21) "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (22) (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? (23) These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

The other believed that since only the spirit mattered it didn't matter what you did with your body (you could be as hedonistic as you pleased), as long as your soul was pure you were ok.

Both points of view can be found among some modern churches.

At least on of the early church fathers (I think it was Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.]) wrote a fairly major work (Against Heresies.) outlining all the forms of Gnosticism (those two are merely the two largest), what they believed, and even what scriptures they tried to use as proof texts in some cases.

If you are interested in such things, i can dig out my notes (this was from the top of my head) for more details.

Tim



SeminoleTom -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/27/2008 12:51:05 PM)

In a related question I get very confused when I hear people talk about rituals or traditions. For example, someone in my family goes to what he calls a "Bible Believing" church. So I go there with them one time and I find out that don't even recite the Lords Prayer. The Lord's Prayer is a ritual/tradition, right? But they don't do it at this Bible Believing church. Is it wrong for the congregation to recite the Lords Prayer? I get confused why they don't recite it....Any help please?



BerianAardvark -> RE: what are "bible-believing" churches? (6/27/2008 1:21:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SeminoleTom

In a related question I get very confused when I hear people talk about rituals or traditions. For example, someone in my family goes to what he calls a "Bible Believing" church. So I go there with them one time and I find out that don't even recite the Lords Prayer. The Lord's Prayer is a ritual/tradition, right? But they don't do it at this Bible Believing church. Is it wrong for the congregation to recite the Lords Prayer? I get confused why they don't recite it....Any help please?


What is generally referred to as "The Lord's Prayer" was given as a model to the disciples when they asked Jesus to teach them how to pray:
It happened that while Jesus was praying in a certain place, after He had finished, one of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray just as John also taught his disciples." And He said to them, "When you pray, say: 'Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. (Luke 11:1-2)

And in Matthew, except with an admonition:
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. "So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. "Pray, then, in this way: 'Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. (Matthew 6:5-9)

Some churches don't like using the Lord's Prayer because when it is recited (especially as a congregational prayer or reading) it tends to be a rote exercise with little or no real thought or understanding.

In the Roman Catholic tradition recitations of the Lord's Prayer (called the Our Father) can be assigned as a penance (six Our Fathers and four Hail Marys). So it could be a reaction against that sort of thing.

Prayer is to be, as with all forms of worship, from the heart and in spirit and in truth...if when you recite it you are honestly doing that then there it is a good thing, otherwise it tends to become a sort of Christian mantra repeated without any though or consideration as to what you are saying rather like a magic chant or mind calmer.

Jesus gave it as a demonstration of how our prayers should look, not as a formula to be repeated, but as an example to be used when we are praying.

Some time take the opportunity to read it looking at each line thoughtfully it is a glorious model, and I try to structure my prayers after it.

Tim



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