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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/15/2008 5:41:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
LOL. Your misquoting me,
Nope... I didn't quote you I said you made a comment about, beating the money out of the rich.... Which you did...
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you can use my name, I don't believe in lying.
Who is lying?
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I said "I don't care if they beat the rich and take it"
How is that any different from what I said?
And there a was a comment made by another person about beating the money out of the rich....
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Me Tracy would do like Jesus and BEAT them out of the Church.
Who has granted you such authority?
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/15/2008 7:23:29 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
Yeah the health savings accounts are REALLY successful - at providing ANOTHER wall of people who can decide that your claim is not covered, in addition to the insurance blokes who already have EVERY interest in denying benefits.
One of the sad things about it. I've seen plenty of people who had good treatments within their reach.... as long as the insurance/funds was there. All too often they were denied and progressively worsened or died trying to figure out what they could do. (I know some of them give up after certain stages.) I know sometimes the Rule of Rescue gets people, and that's absolutely great (IMO), but for every one of those people, there are thousands more who are probably just as bad off that we can't see.
I spent a good while studying medical ethics (and Christian ethics separately)...and some cases are both unbelievable and heartbreaking...especially about the sick who are/were on Medicare/Medicaid and those too poor to be insured...and what finally happened to those people in the end.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/15/2008 7:53:19 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
Yeah the health savings accounts are REALLY successful - at providing ANOTHER wall of people who can decide that your claim is not covered, in addition to the insurance blokes who already have EVERY interest in denying benefits.
One of the sad things about it. I've seen plenty of people who had good treatments within their reach.... as long as the insurance/funds was there. All too often they were denied and progressively worsened or died trying to figure out what they could do. (I know some of them give up after certain stages.) I know sometimes the Rule of Rescue gets people, and that's absolutely great (IMO), but for every one of those people, there are thousands more who are probably just as bad off that we can't see.
I spent a good while studying medical ethics (and Christian ethics separately)...and some cases are both unbelievable and heartbreaking...especially about the sick who are/were on Medicare/Medicaid and those too poor to be insured...and what finally happened to those people in the end.
Links? Any facts from you yet, solo?
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/15/2008 11:31:39 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5393
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
Yeah the health savings accounts are REALLY successful - at providing ANOTHER wall of people who can decide that your claim is not covered, in addition to the insurance blokes who already have EVERY interest in denying benefits.
One of the sad things about it. I've seen plenty of people who had good treatments within their reach.... as long as the insurance/funds was there. All too often they were denied and progressively worsened or died trying to figure out what they could do. (I know some of them give up after certain stages.) I know sometimes the Rule of Rescue gets people, and that's absolutely great (IMO), but for every one of those people, there are thousands more who are probably just as bad off that we can't see.
I spent a good while studying medical ethics (and Christian ethics separately)...and some cases are both unbelievable and heartbreaking...especially about the sick who are/were on Medicare/Medicaid and those too poor to be insured...and what finally happened to those people in the end.
Links? Any facts from you yet, solo?
Don't hold your breath...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/16/2008 1:17:52 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 538
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I spent a good while studying medical ethics (and Christian ethics separately)...and some cases are both unbelievable and heartbreaking...especially about the sick who are/were on Medicare/Medicaid and those too poor to be insured...and what finally happened to those people in the end.
NY Times 3/26/07
Tom DeLay
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/16/2008 12:00:03 PM
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solo_soprano22
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PoohBear, many times we were given New York Times articles to read, but the professor had specifically picked them. Most were on Medicaid or the poor who were having serious problems with healthcare...or the lack of it, as many times was the case. There are real-life cases and information in a text, Classic Cases in Medical Ethics by Dr. Gregory Pence. He gives four further readings and over forty sources/citations for those who are interested and want to research further.
I do know quite a few people who have severe problems with Medicaid and/or the lack of insurance...and they don't have millions to come out of pocket so they can be treated. I have had chances to sit down with (usually retired) MD's/PhD's to discuss their own experiences with Medicaid.... one of my ethics professors is both on Medicaid and had patients that were on it. He was one of America's leading orthopedic surgeons back in the day...as well as a PhD in physiology and three other degrees (two in seminary/religion-- he was a pastor as well as a medical doctor). Sometimes he'd talk to me about what he saw as far as the uninsured/Medicaid patients...probably because he knew that I have some pretty bad problems with my insurance and how they deny what I need. But they've done the same to him. <shrugs>
These are real people out in the world. Some people don't know about them, but could if they wanted to. There are newspapers (NY Times is excellent when they cover this)...there are ethics texts...there are case studies. I remember this being even in sociology textbooks.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/16/2008 12:05:34 PM
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solo_soprano22
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And about the Delaney page, one of my ethics professors was denied insurance because of a pre-existing condition. He graduated from this university, went to Cambridge for a Master's (in Britain)....came back and was denied insurance. I think he moved back to Britain. :) One case study I won't forget is of a woman with breast cancer who was denied coverage because she had cancer. That didn't surprise me, but I think the hopelessness conveyed did.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/16/2008 12:14:51 PM
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relady
Posts: 1279
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quote:
I agree with backrowbaptist that the uninsured have no impact whatsoever on premiums for those who choose to have insurance Wrong, wrong, wrong. Every insured person is subsidizing the uninsured by paying more and higher premiums and higher costs to cover what the uninsured don't pay.
Sorry I got the 75/25 backwards, but the insured folks STILL paid more for their care because you got yours at a discount. Or course it's an indirect form of "welfare" but it is "welfare" nonetheless.
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Any two bit fool that reads and understands the Bible knows we should help the poor. Yup. And without asking and determining whether or not they "deserve" it.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/16/2008 12:22:04 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
I agree with backrowbaptist that the uninsured have no impact whatsoever on premiums for those who choose to have insurance Wrong, wrong, wrong. Every insured person is subsidizing the uninsured by paying more and higher premiums and higher costs to cover what the uninsured don't pay.
Sorry I got the 75/25 backwards, but the insured folks STILL paid more for their care because you got yours at a discount. Or course it's an indirect form of "welfare" but it is "welfare" nonetheless.
Insurance premiums are based on a calculation of risk. The members of a "risk pool" are considered for the probability of a claim and the probable expense of the claims in a given time period. It is this reason why some very restrictive insurance policies have lower premiums - the risk pool is one which has less likelihood of a claim. For example, non-smoker, physically fit, within a certain age group, etc.
What I believe you might be asserting is that the added hospital expense generated by those who don't have insurance and don't pay for the service generate higher costs for those who do pay. I would agree with that. But it is absolutely incorrect to say that insurance premiums are based in any way on the uninsured.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/16/2008 1:02:25 PM
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relady
Posts: 1279
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quote:
What I believe you might be asserting is that the added hospital expense generated by those who don't have insurance and don't pay for the service generate higher costs for those who do pay. I would agree with that. That is exactly what I am trying to say. Although I wouldn't rule out that they also take those costs into account when determining what new premiums will be. I don't believe that they ONLY use the premium payers' risk assessment. I could be wrong, but I doubt I am. Whether or not the insurance companies would admit that they do that is another thing altogether.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/16/2008 1:07:06 PM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
What I believe you might be asserting is that the added hospital expense generated by those who don't have insurance and don't pay for the service generate higher costs for those who do pay. I would agree with that. That is exactly what I am trying to say. Although I wouldn't rule out that they also take those costs into account when determining what new premiums will be. I don't believe that they ONLY use the premium payers' risk assessment. I could be wrong, but I doubt I am. Whether or not the insurance companies would admit that they do that is another thing altogether.
I think the anticipated costs of a hospital stay, for example, include that added cost due to treating the non-payers. That is to say, they consider costs... whatever might be causing the costs... uninsured, mal-practice lawsuits, costs of new technology, etc.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/17/2008 1:18:34 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
I spent a good while studying medical ethics (and Christian ethics separately)...and some cases are both unbelievable and heartbreaking...especially about the sick who are/were on Medicare/Medicaid and those too poor to be insured...and what finally happened to those people in the end.
NY Times 3/26/07
Tom DeLay
Okay, as much as I feel for Mrs. Derks and the others mentioned, the only FACTS I see in this slanted article are that the worst care provider, Conseco, receives 1 complaint out of every 350 customers (0.35% - less than 1%), while Genworth Financial gets one complaint every 12,000 + customers (0.004%). You want us to move from a system like this, to a system similar to countries where 20-50% of patients don't even get treatment in time to deal with their illnesses effectively, even save their LIVES??
And Mr. DeLay is correct, no person is denied CARE in the U.S. Being denied insurance, or even payment for treatment, is not the same as being denied care. The inability of his immature audience (no doubt mind-numbed by years of British socialism) to see it shows exactly why we don't need socialism, or socialized medicine, here.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/17/2008 6:28:14 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 227
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
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Government manage anything?
The welfare system was supposed to assist a man until he got back to work and not cost the tax payers a lot of money. Something went wrong when lazy people found money they didn't have to work for. Now it is a mess.
The government can't even manage itself. Look at the law makers who are also law breakers. And someone wants to let them legislate my health care? NO THANKS!
The government took over passenger train transportation and AmTrack is a mess.
The United States Postal Service was a shambles until it freed itself from government management.
I don't want the government messing up my health care. I'll be much better off if they stay out of it.
America is one of the greatest nations that ever existed on this earth, but that doesn't mean that well-intended power seekers can't go in and mess it up.
God bless America (and America better continue to bless God)!
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/17/2008 7:24:57 PM
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womaninchrist
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But America is a mess becase the power hungry aren't always well intended and they're not always prevented from achieving positions of power - whether through government, wealth or corporate positions. Also, just because something works well for YOU isn't proof it actually works well OVER ALL. If it did, we wouldn't find so many with pre-existing conditions ending up on Medicaid, Medicare or in state run High Risk Pools just because they're otherwise uninsurable (this is why I'm personally on Medicare and SSDI). If it did, we wouldn't have medical expenses as the leading cause of bankruptcies - even among insured people. If it worked, we wouldn't have people with stuff like the flu or in need of medication refills filling our ER's just because that's the ONLY place they can see a doctor - and they wouldn't then find themselves hounded by billcollectors over inflated full rate bills from getting medical care that was typically necessary to their very survival.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/18/2008 12:01:59 AM
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relady
Posts: 1279
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
to a system similar to countries where 20-50% of patients don't even get treatment in time to deal with their illnesses effectively, even save their LIVES?? Hello? Something to back up these percentages please? I don't think any of the 1st world countries have mortality rates this high from insurance or lack thereof. I would need to see some evidence for this statement.
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But America is a mess becase the power hungry aren't always well intended and they're not always prevented from achieving positions of power - whether through government, wealth or corporate positions. so true. But think about it. If you're power hungry you probably aren't going to be too concerned about anyone but yourself. And it's already been brought up in another thread I think that corporate america rewards, on it's best days, mediocrity. So the true cream rarely manages to rise to the top. It's the sour curdles that seem to get their first.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/18/2008 1:33:39 AM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
quote:
to a system similar to countries where 20-50% of patients don't even get treatment in time to deal with their illnesses effectively, even save their LIVES?? Hello? Something to back up these percentages please? I don't think any of the 1st world countries have mortality rates this high from insurance or lack thereof. I would need to see some evidence for this statement.
I was refering to my post #696, where I linked to articles and studies done that give those percentages. Check it out.
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so true. But think about it. If you're power hungry you probably aren't going to be too concerned about anyone but yourself. And it's already been brought up in another thread I think that corporate america rewards, on it's best days, mediocrity. So the true cream rarely manages to rise to the top. It's the sour curdles that seem to get their first.
Corporate America? No, you're describing government bureaucracies, which we don't need for our health care system. Corporate America on its best days rewards performance and competitiveness, which will lower costs and improve the qua;ity of care, if we let the market work.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/18/2008 1:45:59 PM
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womaninchrist
Posts: 451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Corporate America? No, you're describing government bureaucracies, which we don't need for our health care system. Corporate America on its best days rewards performance and competitiveness, which will lower costs and improve the qua;ity of care, if we let the market work.
But the problem revolves around the following:
1. You yourself admit that "Corporate America" rewards performance and competetiveness "on its best days". What about the rest of the time? What about the many horrible things corporations have done to their employees, to surrounding communities and the environment the rest of the time - especially on their "worst days"? Historically, there are plenty of reasons why our government has chosen to regulate businesses at least to a point, rather than to allow purely unfettered capitalism.
2. Who gets to define what is a working healthcare system? The corporations? If so the insurance corporations? The pharmaceutical corporations? The corporations that control many clinic and hospital systems? Incorporated doctors? Someone unincorporated? Patients perhaps?
3. What is a working healthcare system? Is it a certain profit level? Is it a certain level of improvement in our survival rates of various diseases and conditions and in our rates of disabilites from such conditions and diseases? Is it defined by level of access? Affordability? Or is it some combination of these?
Besides, if "Corporate America" only awards the truly competitive and well performing, what about all the recent scandals? What about WaMu for example? Many corporations have recently replaced board members over decisions that lead to huge losses. If ONLY the competitive and well performing are awarded, how did such people become board members?
< Message edited by womaninchrist -- 8/18/2008 1:52:33 PM >
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/18/2008 5:56:17 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
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quote:
ORIGINAL: womaninchrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Corporate America? No, you're describing government bureaucracies, which we don't need for our health care system. Corporate America on its best days rewards performance and competitiveness, which will lower costs and improve the qua;ity of care, if we let the market work.
But the problem revolves around the following:
1. You yourself admit that "Corporate America" rewards performance and competetiveness "on its best days". What about the rest of the time? What about the many horrible things corporations have done to their employees, to surrounding communities and the environment the rest of the time - especially on their "worst days"? Historically, there are plenty of reasons why our government has chosen to regulate businesses at least to a point, rather than to allow purely unfettered capitalism.
Any horrible things that corporations have done to their employees, community and/or environment are vastly outweighed by the good they have done for all three segments of society. Because of corporations we have the best housing, food, clothing, transportation, communications systems, and yes, medicines that mankind has had in its history. Government created NONE of these things. In fact, the most horrible things that have been done to people, communities and the environment have been done by, and in the name of, big government. We, as a people, need to regulate government much more than government regulates us.
quote:
2. Who gets to define what is a working healthcare system? The corporations? If so the insurance corporations? The pharmaceutical corporations? The corporations that control many clinic and hospital systems? Incorporated doctors? Someone unincorporated? Patients perhaps?
I would defer to patients and doctors. They are the consumers of the health care system. Keep the government OUT.
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3. What is a working healthcare system? Is it a certain profit level? Is it a certain level of improvement in our survival rates of various diseases and conditions and in our rates of disabilites from such conditions and diseases? Is it defined by level of access? Affordability? Or is it some combination of these??
Probably some combination of the above. Based on all these, ours stacks up better than most.
quote:
Besides, if "Corporate America" only awards the truly competitive and well performing, what about all the recent scandals? What about WaMu for example? Many corporations have recently replaced board members over decisions that lead to huge losses. If ONLY the competitive and well performing are awarded, how did such people become board members?
You've answered your own question. Those board members were replaced. The corporations regulated themselves in order to stay competitive. And if they break the law, there are legal recourses for those affected. You have no such recourse with government buraecracies. Incompetent and/or corrupt managers get entrenched in their power. Whatever scandals or incompetence you see in insurance corporations now will be magnified exponentially with government run health care.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/19/2008 12:21:58 AM
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relady
Posts: 1279
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Corporate America on its best days rewards performance and competitiveness, which will lower costs and improve the qua;ity of care, if we let the market work. haahahahaaaa, you must not work in corporate america. My husband describes it as a "daily level of stupidity that if you weren't experiencing it first hand, you would not believe it exists". I also found that to be true and we both work/worked for Fortune 500 companies. I worked for a Fortune 100 company. Believe me, the CREAM does NOT rise to the top.
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Government created NONE of these things. Not directly but they certainly have subsidized a LOT of them with their deep pockets.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/19/2008 12:28:09 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2144
Joined: 4/14/2005
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I think that everyone should get free universal health care that the government pays for. They should cover every malady, sickness and problem there is. Got a splinter and want to go to the emergency room? Covered. I mean we're already 9+ trillion in debt who really cares about how much more in debt we go?
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/19/2008 1:12:10 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
haahahahaaaa, you must not work in corporate america. My husband describes it as a "daily level of stupidity that if you weren't experiencing it first hand, you would not believe it exists".
There is something I find odd that people seem to be rather in the dark about. Your post made me think about it although it's not the direct topic of the thread. I'll be non-specific, but within the FDA there is corruption that is directly detrimental to the consumer, while good for some of those who approved it...and such that the consumer cannot sue the maker of the product (once the FDA has approved it). Some of the people who approve these things (that I'm talking about-- not EVERYTHING that ever gets approved) have stock or some kind of money influx if the product is approved and used. So the panel can see and receive $$ in the product...thus subpar (and not well-researched) medical devices can be approved because of that.
So, people who have some monetary "reward" in the product help approve the product that may not be worthy of approval; a patient may get the device put in and get messed up in some way (crippled, maimed, die)....but the patient can't sue the manufacturer when the device proves inadequate (because the FDA approved it). I guess they could attempt to sue the doctor, but the doctor would have had to do something wrong...but the doctor didn't make the device-- s/he just simply put it in.
No, I'm not saying EVERYone is corrupt in this way; it's enough to get products through that should not be getting through though. I'd say just take people away who are having things like this to gain, but I believe many times things are covert. I can see someone having a rough time not approving something that shouldn't be approved when there are buckets of potential monies in there.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/19/2008 3:00:23 AM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
haahahahaaaa, you must not work in corporate america. My husband describes it as a "daily level of stupidity that if you weren't experiencing it first hand, you would not believe it exists". I also found that to be true and we both work/worked for Fortune 500 companies. I worked for a Fortune 100 company. Believe me, the CREAM does NOT rise to the top.
I don't really get what 'cream rising to the top' means in this discussion, but if you and your hubby think you're the cream, then start your own company. Doesn't sound like you'd have much trouble out-doing the dumb Fortune 500ers. That's America, or at least it used to be.
quote:
Government created NONE of these things. quote:
Not directly but they certainly have subsidized a LOT of them with their deep pockets.
And corporations subsidize government by paying huge ammounts in taxes. The ones that make a profit, that is. Anybody catch the taxes Exxon/Mobile paid from their record profits.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/2195.html
If corporations go down, who pays for your precious health care?
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/19/2008 9:50:03 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2144
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
If corporations go down, who pays for your precious health care?
We print more money, print more T Bills for the Chinese to buy from us. We pay for it the same way we pay for everything now from Iraq to NCLB to the weapons the Russians just seized in Georgia. Just print more money since it's the government and they're rich. It's the 21st century conservative way.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 8/19/2008 5:36:07 PM
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relady
Posts: 1279
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
don't really get what 'cream rising to the top' means in this discussion It means the brightest and best get overlooked and not promoted at least as often as they do get promoted. Large corporations reward mediocrity.
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