RE: Socialized Medical Care

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solo_soprano22 -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 11:31:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe People want the government to deal with health care so someone else will pay the bills... That's not true of everyone (I'm wondering how you know what every individual is thinking), but nice to see that you can make a generalization. [&:]

Furnituremaker -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 11:58:34 AM)
Ok Sophie..but what do we do for these folks who are in need now? BTW..my family and I are well taken care of..God seems to meet our needs again and again..but I see so many who need so much, and are in real danger! I feel that addressing the Church is part of what God has asked me to do as pertaining to the disabled, and perhaps if we as Christians spent a little less time pointing out the sins of those outside God's Grace and judged ourselves ,Christ would be better served( that includes me as well)! If I come across as angry or judgmental, I probably am and I apologize. Strangely though it seems those who the Church is so vocal about (Gays for instance) are the very ones I find out in the middle of the fight for my guys. God can use anyone. God will provide when it seems impossible..that is why I want His people to see this need, and really many many turn away from this.[:(]

Sophie11 -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 12:10:37 PM)
I guess I really don't know what to do for all of those who are in need of immediate help. I try to do my part to help those in my family and community, but that help is small scale compared to what is needed. I'm sorry to say that the problem is so huge I just do not have any logical answers that would be of any use at the moment. I seriously feel though that to have this country impose a socialized healthcare program on everyone would be a bad idea. It may be of help to many who are in need right now, but I believe later on down the road there will be a great deal many more problems and people in need of care that will not be able to get it. It would be the same issue we have today only with the government being in control of the process and the people possibly not even being able to help one another if they want to.

solo_soprano22 -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 12:57:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Furnituremaker Ok Sophie..but what do we do for these folks who are in need now? BTW..my family and I are well taken care of..God seems to meet our needs again and again..but I see so many who need so much, and are in real danger! I feel that addressing the Church is part of what God has asked me to do as pertaining to the disabled, and perhaps if we as Christians spent a little less time pointing out the sins of those outside God's Grace and judged ourselves ,Christ would be better served( that includes me as well)! If I come across as angry or judgmental, I probably am and I apologize. Strangely though it seems those who the Church is so vocal about (Gays for instance) are the very ones I find out in the middle of the fight for my guys. God can use anyone. God will provide when it seems impossible..that is why I want His people to see this need, and really many many turn away from this.[:(] I feel (some of) your pain. My mother was suddenly disabled, then got cancer. I do have a disability, and although I'm attempting to go on... I'm not making it. I have two pain disorders and then had a surgery two years ago from which I never did recover. Now I'm not sure what to do or what I'll do when my insurance is gone. (I'm hoping to get in for my PhD, and because it's research-based they usually give a stipend+pay your tuition+give you one-person health insurance.) Many times I've needed a tumor biopsied, but insurance denied it. I've needed scans and insurance denied it... this surgery I had that I could heal from didn't have to become an emergency surgery. Insurance denied the surgery and I became in such bad shape that they had to do the surgery. I know disabled, sick, elderly people who need, but they can't do anything about it. There are people who've had cancer who might not have died, but aside from insurace (which denied them treatment), they didn't have the $ to pay out of pocket. It's a sad state, and I wish the rule of rescue could get everybody, but it doesn't. On a side note though, I've known people in need who went to the church and were turned down...but then I see the church spending on extras that aren't needed any whatsoever... while a disabled church member who can't pay for healthcare gets worse and dies. (I'm talking about my church, not all of them.) It's scary to be sick, know you're sick, yet know you probably can't do anything about it unless you're wealthy or have a benefactor. I know people who got sick and because of that lost their insurance... have it for when you get sick, but when you do it's gone. [8\|] [&o]

solo_soprano22 -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 1:11:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Furnituremaker The general consensus in here seems to be against government health care. As a parent of 2 severely disabled sons I can tell you government health care is full of evil, BUT, it is the only way for these precious sons to get what they need to live. Those of you against government health care, WHAT is your alternative, especially for the chronically ill and the disabled? Before you tell me to just get a job and pay for it myself be aware of a few facts. When we adopted them no insurer would cover us unless we paid a sky high premium, if they would take them at all. Medicaid was our ONLY option! Before you tell me just"get a job" and pay for their care, supplies, meds ourselves. We do work ,. when we can, keep in mind that both sons require full time care! AS Christians, even conservative Christians, aren't we responsible to care for the poor , the sick, the disabled and needy? Aren't all these folks our neighbor? I hear a lot of talk about how the government just wants to take "our" money with higher taxes for social programs and then just waste it. I thought "our money" was really God's money! Isn't the Church doing much the same? I hear continually that the tithe, really a 10% tax is owed to the Church because that is giving to God. Yet the Church ignores my sons and I see Church buildings and frivolous use of God's money everywhere! Isn't the tithe for the needy? My point is, if you want to continue health care as it exists, that is not a solution. Costs are going beyond what many can pay! If not government then who? Could it be that the God's people are the ones who are responsible? To be honest ,many of you remind me of Scrooge...."are there no prisons, are there no workhouses"...if they are going to die perhaps they should do so and decrease the surplus population" It is just not as simple as many of you think it is. Be careful that you are showing compassion when you make statements about health care. Wake up Church! Search the internet for kids needing adoption and you will find many many disabled waiting for a loving home! Take them in your home and then talk to me about health care! You stand against abortion, so do I, but remember if you tell a woman not to abort her "imperfect fetus" she will need to care for that child for the rest of her life! A dangerous trend is starting that declares this population not competent to live and then starves/dehydrates them to death( really a way to save costs). People of God wake up and see your responsibility!! Politics has no answers but Jesus does! Everyone is our neighbor. I agree with most of that, but I don't think there will come a solution. I know what it's like to either be disabled/severly ill long-term or have to figure out where the resources will come from. I wish it'd get better; I don't think it will though.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:22:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Furnituremaker The general consensus in here seems to be against government health care. With good reason(s)... quote: As a parent of 2 severely disabled sons I can tell you government health care is full of evil, BUT, it is the only way for these precious sons to get what they need to live. Those of you against government health care, WHAT is your alternative, especially for the chronically ill and the disabled? Before you tell me to just get a job and pay for it myself be aware of a few facts. When we adopted them no insurer would cover us unless we paid a sky high premium, if they would take them at all. Medicaid was our ONLY option! No, it was the option you chose... quote: Before you tell me just"get a job" and pay for their care, supplies, meds ourselves. We do work ,. when we can, keep in mind that both sons require full time care! Given what you have posted it seems you took on responsibility you were not prepared for... quote: I hear a lot of talk about how the government just wants to take "our" money with higher taxes for social programs and then just waste it. I thought "our money" was really God's money! God didn't ordain the government to play God in game of wealth redistribution... quote: Isn't the Church doing much the same? I hear continually that the tithe, really a 10% tax is owed to the Church because that is giving to God. Is it? What is the above based on? What is your interaction with the church? quote: Yet the Church ignores my sons and I see Church buildings and frivolous use of God's money everywhere! Isn't the tithe for the needy? What church are you speaking of? Given the seriousness of the charge more details should be posted… Blanket statement like the above don't carry any weight... quote: My point is, if you want to continue health care as it exists, that is not a solution. Costs are going beyond what many can pay! If not government then who? What makes anyone think that government has the means to <cough> control costs??? The government cannot deal with what's on its plate now, what makes anyone think they can take on health care and deal with it as well... quote: Could it be that the God's people are the ones who are responsible? Responsible for the choices people make? quote: It is just not as simple as many of you think it is. Be careful that you are showing compassion when you make statements about health care. quote: Wake up Church! Search the internet for kids needing adoption and you will find many many disabled waiting for a loving home! Take them in your home and then talk to me about health care! What good is giving then home that doesn't have the means to care for them? quote: People of God wake up and see your responsibility!! Politics has no answers but Jesus does! . In this very post you stated the following... My point is, if you want to continue health care as it exists, that is not a solution. Costs are going beyond what many can pay! If not government then who? It seems that "Politics" will suffice... John

bzirk -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:23:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Furnituremaker The general consensus in here seems to be against government health care. As a parent of 2 severely disabled sons I can tell you government health care is full of evil, BUT, it is the only way for these precious sons to get what they need to live. Those of you against government health care, WHAT is your alternative, especially for the chronically ill and the disabled? Before you tell me to just get a job and pay for it myself be aware of a few facts. When we adopted them no insurer would cover us unless we paid a sky high premium, if they would take them at all. Medicaid was our ONLY option! Before you tell me just"get a job" and pay for their care, supplies, meds ourselves. We do work ,. when we can, keep in mind that both sons require full time care! AS Christians, even conservative Christians, aren't we responsible to care for the poor , the sick, the disabled and needy? Aren't all these folks our neighbor? I hear a lot of talk about how the government just wants to take "our" money with higher taxes for social programs and then just waste it. I thought "our money" was really God's money! Isn't the Church doing much the same? I hear continually that the tithe, really a 10% tax is owed to the Church because that is giving to God. Yet the Church ignores my sons and I see Church buildings and frivolous use of God's money everywhere! Isn't the tithe for the needy? My point is, if you want to continue health care as it exists, that is not a solution. Costs are going beyond what many can pay! If not government then who? Could it be that the God's people are the ones who are responsible? To be honest ,many of you remind me of Scrooge...."are there no prisons, are there no workhouses"...if they are going to die perhaps they should do so and decrease the surplus population" It is just not as simple as many of you think it is. Be careful that you are showing compassion when you make statements about health care. Wake up Church! Search the internet for kids needing adoption and you will find many many disabled waiting for a loving home! Take them in your home and then talk to me about health care! You stand against abortion, so do I, but remember if you tell a woman not to abort her "imperfect fetus" she will need to care for that child for the rest of her life! A dangerous trend is starting that declares this population not competent to live and then starves/dehydrates them to death( really a way to save costs). People of God wake up and see your responsibility!! Politics has no answers but Jesus does! Everyone is our neighbor. I understand completely what it's like to deal with exhorbitant healthcare expenses. My husband is type 1 diabetic and has been for almost 30 years. That is no picnic, and the costs we have endured have almost beggared us, because we do not have group insurance. If I said what we pay monthly for insurance, people would freak. Let me put it this way, it's more than enough to make a house payment and probably two. It is a miracle that we are still able to pay it. Nevertheless, we have often weighed the idea of just investing that money for times when we need it for medical, but the truth is that costs can run into the hundreds of thousands, and the investments would have to be fantastic to cover those potential costs. In other words, we're caught. But we do pray about what we should do, and frequently we ask the Lord if we should go off of insurance. We just might one day, and it might be because we cannot pay for it. By the way, we do qualify for some government assistance, but we are very convicted about not taking it. We do not believe it is right to take that money when we are capable of making the payments -- albeit it does severely diminish the quality of life for us and and our children. BTW, that is not a slap at you for taking government assistance. I'm merely telling you about my situation, so you know that I'm not sitting over here with everything peachy keen and syaing the government shouldn't be in healthcare.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:25:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe People want the government to deal with health care so someone else will pay the bills... Is it that they really want someone else to pay the bills or is it that they need the care and can't pay the bills? No... Entitlement is an ever growing disease... John

solo_soprano22 -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:26:02 PM)
John, you're no stranger to blanket statements. [&:] I'd stop making them myself before I start point out other people's.

solo_soprano22 -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:28:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bzirk quote: ORIGINAL: Furnituremaker The general consensus in here seems to be against government health care. As a parent of 2 severely disabled sons I can tell you government health care is full of evil, BUT, it is the only way for these precious sons to get what they need to live. Those of you against government health care, WHAT is your alternative, especially for the chronically ill and the disabled? Before you tell me to just get a job and pay for it myself be aware of a few facts. When we adopted them no insurer would cover us unless we paid a sky high premium, if they would take them at all. Medicaid was our ONLY option! Before you tell me just"get a job" and pay for their care, supplies, meds ourselves. We do work ,. when we can, keep in mind that both sons require full time care! AS Christians, even conservative Christians, aren't we responsible to care for the poor , the sick, the disabled and needy? Aren't all these folks our neighbor? I hear a lot of talk about how the government just wants to take "our" money with higher taxes for social programs and then just waste it. I thought "our money" was really God's money! Isn't the Church doing much the same? I hear continually that the tithe, really a 10% tax is owed to the Church because that is giving to God. Yet the Church ignores my sons and I see Church buildings and frivolous use of God's money everywhere! Isn't the tithe for the needy? My point is, if you want to continue health care as it exists, that is not a solution. Costs are going beyond what many can pay! If not government then who? Could it be that the God's people are the ones who are responsible? To be honest ,many of you remind me of Scrooge...."are there no prisons, are there no workhouses"...if they are going to die perhaps they should do so and decrease the surplus population" It is just not as simple as many of you think it is. Be careful that you are showing compassion when you make statements about health care. Wake up Church! Search the internet for kids needing adoption and you will find many many disabled waiting for a loving home! Take them in your home and then talk to me about health care! You stand against abortion, so do I, but remember if you tell a woman not to abort her "imperfect fetus" she will need to care for that child for the rest of her life! A dangerous trend is starting that declares this population not competent to live and then starves/dehydrates them to death( really a way to save costs). People of God wake up and see your responsibility!! Politics has no answers but Jesus does! Everyone is our neighbor. I understand completely what it's like to deal with exhorbitant healthcare expenses. My husband is type 1 diabetic and has been for almost 30 years. That is no picnic, and the costs we have endured have almost beggared us, because we do not have group insurance. If I said what we pay monthly for insurance, people would freak. Let me put it this way, it's more than enough to make a house payment and probably two. It is a miracle that we are still able to pay it. Nevertheless, we have often weighed the idea of just investing that money for times when we need it for medical, but the truth is that costs can run into the hundreds of thousands, and the investments would have to be fantastic to cover those potential costs. In other words, we're caught. But we do pray about what we should do, and frequently we ask the Lord if we should go off of insurance. We just might one day, and it might be because we cannot pay for it. By the way, we do qualify for some government assistance, but we are very convicted about not taking it. We do not believe it is right to take that money when we are capable of making the payments -- albeit it does severely diminish the quality of life for us and and our children. BTW, that is not a slap at you for taking government assistance. I'm merely telling you about my situation, so you know that I'm not sitting over here with everything peachy keen and syaing the government shouldn't be in healthcare. Good post. :)

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:30:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Furnituremaker I am not saying social medicine is the answer or that I am for it. But it is already the ONLY option available for many like my sons! People are already dieing due to governmental decisions about health care. Most people die beacause they kill themselves with bad habits... Most causes of death are directly related to the habits of the person, not a lack of health care... Most people are only a victim of themselves... quote: To just say you are against socialized medicine is just not enough! People that need help in so many ways and are being ignored, especially by those who call themselves God's people. Baseless charge... I for one reject such charges and place the ionus on you to either support with it with substance or retract it... quote: Without an alternative things just keep sliding towards the black hole of devaluation of life! What I am saying the loudest is to God's people. Wake up...get your hands dirty..care for these folks......don't just say it is someone else's responsibility. That is what you are saying... Your choice to adopt is the responsibility of everyone else... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:32:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva If Christians and the churches would've been doing their duty in the first place, there would be much less of a need for things like social medicine. Given the burden placed on the system by the bad habits of people I don't agree... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:36:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22 quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe People want the government to deal with health care so someone else will pay the bills... That's not true of everyone (I'm wondering how you know what every individual is thinking), but nice to see that you can make a generalization. [&:] It's true of a great deal of people... People believes they are owed whatever it is they feel they want let alone need... As for your wondering how I come to my conclusions... Wating and listening to people... People on this thread support my so-called generalization. John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:43:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Furnituremaker Ok Sophie..but what do we do for these folks who are in need now? BTW..my family and I are well taken care of..God seems to meet our needs again and again..but I see so many who need so much, and are in real danger! Huh? This doesn't align with your previous posts... quote: I feel that addressing the Church is part of what God has asked me to do as pertaining to the disabled, and perhaps if we as Christians spent a little less time pointing out the sins of those outside God's Grace and judged ourselves ,Christ would be better served( that includes me as well)! If I come across as angry or judgmental, I probably am and I apologize. I feel that God doesn't have people make up stories to make a point... quote: Strangely though it seems those who the Church is so vocal about (Gays for instance) are the very ones I find out in the middle of the fight for my guys. God can use anyone. [8\|] John

bzirk -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:43:55 PM)
Perhaps a lot of people die from bad habits, but the truth is that we're all going to die whether we have bad habits or not, and there is probably going to be some poor health that precedes that death, since we're all in the process of dying physically. That is part of the result of sin (our own and others), and there is no escaping it. That said, the problem with the high cost of healthcare is due to government intervention. When all the money given to Medicare was dumped into the system, costs increased at a stunning rate. Fast forward to the early 90s and George Bush the first signed some nifty little things into law that made it again jump significantly. But don't take my word for it.

Roberta_ -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:47:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva If Christians and the churches would've been doing their duty in the first place, there would be much less of a need for things like social medicine. Given the burden placed on the system by the bad habits of people I don't agree... John My Bible says differently. quote: quote: Without an alternative things just keep sliding towards the black hole of devaluation of life! What I am saying the loudest is to God's people. Wake up...get your hands dirty..care for these folks......don't just say it is someone else's responsibility. That is what you are saying... Your choice to adopt is the responsibility of everyone else... He did what he was called to do. Do you hold that same stance with foster parents? quote: John, you're no stranger to blanket statements. I'd stop making them myself before I start point out other people's. Thank you solo!

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 2:50:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22 John, you're no stranger to blanket statements. [&:] I'd stop making them myself before I start point out other people's. Refute it... Refute the fact that a large and ever growing part of the population feels they are entitled to whatever it they feel they need... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 3:04:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva My Bible says differently. Given what any bible says about people I'll stand behind my statement... The burden placed on the system by those who are slowly killing themselves is rather large... If people were doing what they are supposed to the church could deal with the orphans and widows... quote: Do you hold that same stance with foster parents? Yes, if they can't or won't deal with the responsibility they accepted... What is the point of taking on responsibilities that one can’t fulfill? Not to mention later brow beating others because one cannot fulfill their obligations... John

Roberta_ -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 3:16:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: Do you hold that same stance with foster parents? Yes, if they can't or won't deal with the responsibility they accepted... What is the point of taking on responsibilities that one can’t fulfill? Not to mention later brow beating others because one cannot fulfill their obligations... John Well, I give you credit for rendering me speechless...... almost...... what do you suggest for those who are orphaned? Afterall, those children must have done something wrong to be orphaned in the first place. Or everyone has their struggles in life. Just get over it little ones. BTW- kids you don't need medical care anyway!

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 3:24:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva Well, I give you credit for rendering me speechless...... almost...... what do you suggest for those who are orphaned? Afterall, those children must have done something wrong to be orphaned in the first place. Or everyone has their struggles in life. Just get over it little ones. BTW- kids you don't need medical care anyway! We are not talking who is being adopted but those who adopt... You can attempt to turn this in another direction but I will stand by my statement...What is the point of taking on responsibilities that one can’t fulfill? Not to mention later brow beating others because one cannot fulfill their obligations... John

solo_soprano22 -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 3:29:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva If Christians and the churches would've been doing their duty in the first place, there would be much less of a need for things like social medicine. Given the burden placed on the system by the bad habits of people I don't agree... John My Bible says differently. quote: quote: Without an alternative things just keep sliding towards the black hole of devaluation of life! What I am saying the loudest is to God's people. Wake up...get your hands dirty..care for these folks......don't just say it is someone else's responsibility. That is what you are saying... Your choice to adopt is the responsibility of everyone else... He did what he was called to do. Do you hold that same stance with foster parents? quote: John, you're no stranger to blanket statements. I'd stop making them myself before I start point out other people's. Thank you solo! Had to say it, lol. :) Bad habits, a lot of the time, have nothing to do with it. Think of all the genetic diseases that afflict people from birth. Dystrophy, fibrosis... even the diseases I have no one caused. I had a professor who was a leading orthopedic surgeon back in the day... he used to do surgeries on disabled people (esp. muscular dystrophy) for less because they couldn't afford it. But thinking about it, people are are born handicapped that way didn't do anything to bring that on themselves. Some of the stories he told were heartbreaking, but when you have no money and no resources...can't work and there's no rule of rescue for you, you may end up just sitting there.

Roberta_ -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 3:31:16 PM)
A foster parent is not necessarily going to adopt any child. The child may never be adopted. Some foster children for a few days, some for 15+ years. You said that a foster parent should not be getting medical help for the child(ren) they are taking care of. You said that it was the foster parent's responsibility to bear that burden.

solo_soprano22 -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 3:32:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: DenimDiva Well, I give you credit for rendering me speechless...... almost...... what do you suggest for those who are orphaned? Afterall, those children must have done something wrong to be orphaned in the first place. Or everyone has their struggles in life. Just get over it little ones. BTW- kids you don't need medical care anyway! We are not talking who is being adopted but those who adopt... You can attempt to turn this in another direction but I will stand by my statement...What is the point of taking on responsibilities that one can’t fulfill? Not to mention later brow beating others because one cannot fulfill their obligations... John I think sometimes God tells us to take on things that seem impossible, but God's intent is that others are to step up to help these people. Others may hear the call but not respond... and then where there could have been help, there is none. The people adopting might have been following God's will 100%; others may have chosen to ignore their duties (according to God).

Mrs.Wifey -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 3:32:07 PM)
John, I entirely agree and my family HAS adopted children with special needs. Two of my brothers have terminal muscular dystrophy that requires specialized medical care and equipment. They DO receive Medicaid and my FIL is one of the most outspoken people I know about how a medical program fully run by the government is going to ruin us all. However, if they were not able to provide them insurance(they could, if needed be added to the family plan with their other siblings) then they would not have adopted them.

Roberta_ -> RE: Socialized Medical Care (6/21/2008 3:32:34 PM)
oops- I meant to quote John's post when I posted that.

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