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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 5:56:54 PM
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whos_your_dolly
Posts: 87
Joined: 6/21/2008
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It really upsets me to hear people talk about THEIR pockets in terms of money. I don't think a servant of God owns anything. I believe we are given whatever God has chosen to give us, including our talents and abilities to better equip each of us to serve Him with in whatever He gives us to do for Him. I believe the "church" has a Divine MANDATE from God to care for the helpless. It's not just a nice thing to do that makes God proud of us for being so "generous". Its His commandment. To me, to you and to each of His people, including the church leaders. God also commands us to obey the law of the land [ie taxes]. How can you wiggle out of caring for the helpless when God so blatantly commands you to care for them? I know someone will say we aren't saved by our works, and of course this is true. But nevertheless, we as SERVANTS of the Lord must SERVE Him must we not? How does one serve the Lord WITHOUT works. Just because we are not SAVED by works doesn't mean we shouldn't DO them. They don't save us, but are required of us all. It's not enough to throw your tithe in the basket and go smugly on your way complaining about all these worthless souls who are stealing "YOUR" money.... its not YOUR money. It's God's. Get on with using it to serve Him and get over your clinging to the worldly ideas and ways. Only then can you really see how wonderfully He can work in your life. Don't go bury your talents in some bank or worthless objects. God is NOT pleased with buried talents. God has allowed certain souls to be amongst us who need our help. He equips us to help them when we are obedient and accept the job. Many people are just not listening to Him. " Let somebody else do it, and don't expect me to pay for it " is a common attitude. Sadly this attitude alienates you from God and prevents you from living the gloriously fruitful life He would love for you to live, relying only on Him for your security and your source. It really does work you know. And there is no earthly treasure that can compare to the smile of a child who has hitherto had no reason to smile.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 5:57:40 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
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Well anyway, since Furnituremaker chose to leave without answering my question, the point of it was this: I take care of my child, I'm sure everyone else here (I hope!  ) takes care of their own children, and Furnituremaker takes care of his. That is very good, we are supposed to take care of our families. I just wonder though with Furnituremaker making so many comments and asking so many questions of others of how we help to take care of those outside of our family in need if he does such a thing. I happened to have a very healthy baby boy who has not ever had need of any major medical care, the worst yet being s couple of staples in his head from a fall. But if my son had been born with any type of disability that required constant care, I would of course still be caring for him and loving him no matter what it took.
I do what I can to help others. "What I can" unfortunately does not include caring for every sick person in my area, I have my own family to think about and I cannot allow my family to fall into bankruptcy in order to keep another from the same. What good would helping someone else be if I gave so much I then needed many others to help me too?
I wonder how many people Furnituremaker has helped, or is it only his family? If it is only his family, then I honestly cannot understand how he can get so upset at others who can only afford to care for their own family. Yes we are called to help others in need, but we are also told to provide for our families, and I don't know that one ought to be held above the other as being better.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 5:58:51 PM
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whos_your_dolly
Posts: 87
Joined: 6/21/2008
Status: offline
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It is YOUR responsibility to care for the helpless just like its mine. You just choose to ignore it.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 6:00:52 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly
It is YOUR responsibility to care for the helpless just like its mine. You just choose to ignore it.
Excuse me, was that remark aimed at me?
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 6:09:21 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 4872
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whos_your_dolly
It really upsets me to hear people talk about THEIR pockets in terms of money. I don't think a servant of God owns anything. I believe we are given whatever God has chosen to give us, including our talents and abilities to better equip each of us to serve Him with in whatever He gives us to do for Him. I believe the "church" has a Divine MANDATE from God to care for the helpless. It's not just a nice thing to do that makes God proud of us for being so "generous". Its His commandment. To me, to you and to each of His people, including the church leaders. God also commands us to obey the law of the land [ie taxes]. How can you wiggle out of caring for the helpless when God so blatantly commands you to care for them? I know someone will say we aren't saved by our works, and of course this is true. But nevertheless, we as SERVANTS of the Lord must SERVE Him must we not? How does one serve the Lord WITHOUT works. Just because we are not SAVED by works doesn't mean we shouldn't DO them. They don't save us, but are required of us all. It's not enough to throw your tithe in the basket and go smugly on your way complaining about all these worthless souls who are stealing "YOUR" money.... its not YOUR money. It's God's. Get on with using it to serve Him and get over your clinging to the worldly ideas and ways. Only then can you really see how wonderfully He can work in your life. Don't go bury your talents in some bank or worthless objects. God is NOT pleased with buried talents. God has allowed certain souls to be amongst us who need our help. He equips us to help them when we are obedient and accept the job. Many people are just not listening to Him. " Let somebody else do it, and don't expect me to pay for it " is a common attitude. Sadly this attitude alienates you from God and prevents you from living the gloriously fruitful life He would love for you to live, relying only on Him for your security and your source. It really does work you know. And there is no earthly treasure that can compare to the smile of a child who has hitherto had no reason to smile.
It is God's money, but He has also commanded us to be good stewards of what he has given us. Because we see a failing social security system my husband and I choose to save money in the bank to prepare for our future(especially our healthcare) and to make sure that our children are provided for should anything happen to us before they are able to support themselves.
We DO serve God, it just is not(obviously) in the same way that He has called you to serve. We do not all have the same calling and there is nothing wrong with that. We also pay our taxes, and will continue to do so because we do believe in "rendering unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's".
I highly doubt that you are giving your entire paycheck to pay for the health care or needs of the poor/sick/those who can't afford to live.
< Message edited by Mrs.Wifey -- 6/21/2008 6:26:19 PM >
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 6:10:42 PM
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Jeff_from_Kentucky
Posts: 1502
Joined: 7/5/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
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Here we go again! Another person signs on and says that those of us who are against socialized medicine don't give a hoot for those who can't afford it. I wish people would actually go back and read the posts before they jump in and make baseless accusations.
So, one more time for clarification purposes: I have never said that I don't want to or that I do not help those who cannot help themselves. What I have said is that I DO NOT WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO RUN THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!!! It would be inefficient and would be detrimental to the health and well being of the very ones who need the help the most.
There is a big difference in not wanting the government to run the healthcare system and not wanting to help others or not helping others!
_____________________________
<< Frank Seamans and my son Jeffrey - September, 2007
"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain." Philippians 1:21
Dispatchers tell cops where to go!
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 6:31:42 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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Just a link for those of you who think universal healthcare is going to solve the problem with healthcare.
The Problems with Socialized Healthcare
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 6:31:49 PM
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ElmerFishpaw
Posts: 148
Joined: 7/18/2007
Status: offline
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Some random thoughts.....I think we can all agree that a healthy society is necessary. A safe society is just as necessary. So why not just put all the police, fire, air traffic control, the FCC etc. all up to the lowest bidder?
I'm sure the State Police run by a Wal Mart type (heck why not even Wal Mart ! ) would save us a bundle !
They could do it on the cheap! Of course I'm being ridiculous, but I think health care would fall into required services like police etc...some things are just for the common good of all and should never be in the hands of business.
So, if I pay $100/week in health care premiums.... OR... $100/week in taxes for my health care, it's $100 bucks either way.
As far as ability to pay, NOBODY...EVER should have to choose between food and medication. Some diseases are contagious and yes, access to health care then becomes a public safety issue. Maybe a good start...that's a start...would be free health care screenings for everyone, for free for certain diseases. I know it's done now to an extent, but have it be much more widespread and available. Health care, whether private or not needs to start focusing on prevention. I'd rather have diabetes screening for people cheaply than pay for weeks of expensive treatment for someone who doesn't know they have diabetes falling into a coma.
OK>>>>I had to edit this post to put in a couple of important words that I typed in the first place why when I hit "submit" some words are deleted? GRRR!!!!!
< Message edited by ElmerFishpaw -- 6/21/2008 7:17:02 PM >
_____________________________
"Aurora Borealis is Latin for flying saucer headlights"
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 6:39:59 PM
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Sophie11
Posts: 931
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ElmerFishpaw
Some random thoughts.....I think we can all agree that a healthy society is necessary.
Where we disagree is the issue of socialized medicine making us a healthy society.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:21:29 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
So, John, you think that no one has a need for gov't health care?
Again...
If they are wards of the state the state is their parents and responsible for them...
John
Not necessarily. Sometimes the parents can't be found or they are deceased.
Wards of the state...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:22:46 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 7427
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
So, John, you think that no one has a need for gov't health care?
Again...
If they are wards of the state the state is their parents and responsible for them...
John
Not necessarily. Sometimes the parents can't be found or they are deceased.
Wards of the state...
John
Taxpayers are still paying for their health care.
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:28:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Furnituremaker
SovereignIsHe
So you see no obligation whatsoever to meet the medical needs of children who have been abused, are sick, or are born with defects? With taxes, tithes, giving etc.? Ones who would die without proper care and medical treatment?!Ones who would not have a family if there was no support for adoptions like Medicaid? These precious little ones are hated by a world that sees them as worthless and unworthy of life! This is love and compassion!?My sons' needs are met...by government health care called Medicaid..not mine but my sons. When we adopted them this was the only way! Personally I have no health insurance at all. That is how God has met their(my sons needs). If you think this is demanding an entitlement then I suggest you adopt a child with similar needs and pay for their needs yourself while you care for them too. After a few years then you can talk to me, till then you do NOT have a CLUE.
I pay for the needs of my children and I don't look to others to pay for my obligations... Taking on something you can't handle and holding it over the heads of others doesn't have an ounce of merit.
quote:
As a Christian you are obligated to care for the sick and poor and needy, not by my standards but by Gods. I run into this attitude again and again...that I am demanding an entitlement. I am trying to obey the Lord with my life and the resistance I have gotten especially from those like you who call themselves Christians is hard to believe. How can you accept the unconditional unearned love and forgiveness of the Lord Jesus and act that way? Are you entitled to forgiveness..hardly, it is unearned favor called GRACE! In the same way that God adopts you into His Family and supplies you with your needs, He expects you to do the same to your neighbors. So yes it is my responsibility and it is yours too..to clothe the naked, visit the sick etc.
You aren't, the state is... You speak of God yet you look to the state...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:30:04 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Seems to me that life includes access to healthcare. You certainly aren't going to live long without being able to go to a doctor. It's also hard to pursue happiness if you're sick all the time. So that's two out of three inalienable rights that are directly connected to healthcare.
I'd say that the conclusion is pretty much a no brainer.
Access doesn't equate to other people payiing for it...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:33:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
So, John, you think that no one has a need for gov't health care?
Again...
If they are wards of the state the state is their parents and responsible for them...
John
Not necessarily. Sometimes the parents can't be found or they are deceased.
Wards of the state...
John
Taxpayers are still paying for their health care.
Yes of course, they are WARDS of the state... Which has NOTHING to do with this thread or people wanting others to cover the cost of their choices...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:37:01 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2848
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
Here we go again! Another person signs on and says that those of us who are against socialized medicine don't give a hoot for those who can't afford it. I wish people would actually go back and read the posts before they jump in and make baseless accusations.
So, one more time for clarification purposes: I have never said that I don't want to or that I do not help those who cannot help themselves. What I have said is that I DO NOT WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO RUN THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!!! It would be inefficient and would be detrimental to the health and well being of the very ones who need the help the most.
There is a big difference in not wanting the government to run the healthcare system and not wanting to help others or not helping others!
You need to revise that to 'it is inefficient.' Medicare/medicaid are two of the most poorly run programs. They waste mind boggling amounts of money, and people die or are severely impacted by how slowly the wheels can grind and the quality of care they can receive.
I noticed that furniture maker had nothing to say about my stance.
I think making this about the extreme cases is confusing the issue. The extreme cases could certainly be handled by the private sector, and if the government was diligent in monitoring who receives care, extreme cases could certainly be handled well by the government. I doubt the latter is going to happen but it sounds good. All that aside, the extreme cases such as furnituremaker described make up a very small percentage of people in this country. If we as taxpayers were only charged with taking care of people who are in the situation of furnituremaker's kids, we could do it with no problems. But that's not what we're talking about. That's not what socialized medicine is about. In fact, socialized medicine would have a devastating effect for people like furnituremaker's kids, because of the very real rationing that goes on with it. Take a look at hmo's. If you like the way those are run, then you'll love socialized medicine. It will be interesting to hear what people have to say about hmo's.
< Message edited by bzirk -- 6/21/2008 8:06:37 PM >
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:38:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jeff_from_Kentucky
Here we go again! Another person signs on and says that those of us who are against socialized medicine don't give a hoot for those who can't afford it. I wish people would actually go back and read the posts before they jump in and make baseless accusations.
So, one more time for clarification purposes: I have never said that I don't want to or that I do not help those who cannot help themselves. What I have said is that I DO NOT WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO RUN THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM!!! It would be inefficient and would be detrimental to the health and well being of the very ones who need the help the most.
There is a big difference in not wanting the government to run the healthcare system and not wanting to help others or not helping others!
Anymore I simply ignore those folks who have 2 or 3 posts...
John
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:42:05 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2848
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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As for things like medical records privacy, my friends, you can kiss that goodbye if socialized medicine comes in. In fact, once you go on Medicare or Medicaid, hang it up on privacy, and frankly, I understand it, because if the government is paying for healthcare, they have a right to supervise it, and that means having access to medical records.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Socialized Medical Care - 6/21/2008 7:50:03 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 771
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
So, John, you think that no one has a need for gov't health care?
Again...
If they are wards of the state the state is their parents and responsible for them...
John
Not necessarily. Sometimes the parents can't be found or they are deceased.
Wards of the state...
John
Taxpayers are still paying for their health care.
Yes of course, they are WARDS of the state... Which has NOTHING to do with this thread or people wanting others to cover the cost of their choices...
John
I call shennanigans.
There are a lot of people who can't afford health care, or can't get health insurance due to pre-existing conditions. What about them? Who helps them out? The Church has been notoriously silent about these people, usually using the excuse of their choices to omit their responsibility to care for the sick.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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