RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (Full Version)

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LBolt -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 8:47:03 AM)

Messiah has been known to appear to people through dream or vision, does this not constitute an eyewitness appearance? True apostles and prophet ought to teach what was already taught. The OT, what Messiah taught and what the apostles taught, which of course would be all the same. They would not contradict one another, unlike what we do today.

Restoration is more than just the offices, it's dealing with more so the Torah and YAH's Way. But that another argument for another thread.[;)]



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 9:38:54 AM)

Yeah, restoration is for another thread... I've got enough to think about to figure all this out about spiritual gifts and offices. Then maybe I can figure out what restoration is. [;)]

I'm reading the scripture like Awaken, LBolt, Cherished, and JChristopher (did I forget anyone?) are posting and that's why I'm not understanding where this doctrine finds purchase. Like you Cherished, Prophecy is my gift and I'm wanting to get a Biblical view on how it should be used. So many just dismiss it out of hand... However, I know that it's a gift because my experience with it goes along with what I read in the Bible. What I'm not getting is this business about offices and why some believe the gift to have passed with the office. The denomination I attend currently teaches those things.

Michelle, your post was exactly what I am looking for so I can study those scripture at length and in context to see if the scripture is being twisted, assumptions added, and then conclusions drawn or if that's what the Bible says.



LBolt -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 12:28:15 PM)

A pastor friend, David E Taylor sent me a book he recently wrote, When God Preserves the Destiny of a Nation through Dreams, and it has blessed my soul tremendously.

It deals with dreams and how God's speaks through them, uses them to communicate His will for your life and others. It might be a bit out of your comfort zone deepending on your denomination never the less it has blest me and gave me more nuggets in this realm. Dreams can save your life as well as others!



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 3:41:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant

Like you Cherished, Prophecy is my gift and I'm wanting to get a Biblical view on how it should be used. So many just dismiss it out of hand... However, I know that it's a gift because my experience with it goes along with what I read in the Bible.


It is a wonderful gift! This story might sound silly to some but...I begged God that I might receive the gift of prophecy for quite awhile....Little did I know, I already had it. It was gradually revealed to me. God has such a sense of humor.

There are so many ways it can be used. Mine is through writing and teaching through my writings and other ways. When we examine those verses in 1Corinthians 14 where it says it is used to comfort, encourage and exhort, the opportunities to do just that, are endless.

For one can comfort and encourage through a kind reply on a forum such as this, a phone call, sending a card, taking a meal to someone, giving a loving Christian hug just listening to someone and on and on. One can comfort, encourage or exhort through being a teacher of other women (since we are both ladies[;)]). One can comfort and encourage through praying with someone....

IMHO, it is a gift that definitely needs to be taught about by the pastor and encouraged because, frankly, I don't see a whole lot of it going on within the circles of Christianity...At least where I hang.....



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 4:02:50 PM)

Thanks, Cherished. I normally find God calling me to speak in one-on-one conversations and in small groups (not formally, but as the opportunity comes up.) Of course, that's being used to build up the church (and at times tear out junk that doesn't belong,) but I wish it was more accepted and taught on.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 4:08:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant

Thanks, Cherished. I normally find God calling me to speak in one-on-one conversations and in small groups (not formally, but as the opportunity comes up.) Of course, that's being used to build up the church (and at times tear out junk that doesn't belong,) but I wish it was more accepted and taught on.


Yes, it is definitely a "building up" gift and that is one reason it is so important. There is plenty around to tear us down including, sometimes, other believers[8|]



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 5:05:41 PM)

Oh, Cherished... I think you misunderstood... or else I'm misunderstanding you (that could be the more likely choice. [8D]) What I was saying is that God has used me to tear down things like "idols" or false teachings in certain situations that were accepted by Christians... the end result was building up the church, but the first result was getting rid of some junk that Christians had no business being involved in. It wasn't about tearing down the believers, but about getting them back on track.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 8:45:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant

Oh, Cherished... I think you misunderstood... or else I'm misunderstanding you (that could be the more likely choice. [8D]) What I was saying is that God has used me to tear down things like "idols" or false teachings in certain situations that were accepted by Christians... the end result was building up the church, but the first result was getting rid of some junk that Christians had no business being involved in. It wasn't about tearing down the believers, but about getting them back on track.


So sorry for any confusion! Believe me, I would never think you capable of tearing down believers!

Methinks you are as good as gold[:)] from what I have "seen" of you around here.

I knew what you meant! Sorry for misunderstanding[8|]



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/23/2008 8:57:14 PM)

Thanks! I figured I misunderstood. We're good.



awaken -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/24/2008 6:32:07 PM)

So those that believe the office of prophet no longer exist.....Your saying that they have fullfilled there purpose? And there will not be anymore prophets?



earthless -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/24/2008 6:52:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: awaken

So those that believe the office of prophet no longer exist.....Your saying that they have fullfilled there purpose? And there will not be anymore prophets?


Check this OUT



awaken -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/25/2008 12:05:46 AM)

So you are saying that there will be no more prophets because they can not pass the test?



LBolt -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/25/2008 10:42:27 PM)

I guess the 2 prophets Revelation speaks of don't count...and that's end-times if memory serve me right.



awaken -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/26/2008 10:27:49 AM)

How do they not count? They are prophets, they are after the others die off....unless they are two previous prophets come back at the end times. This would mean...they are not new, right?

I still have a lot of studing to do on this subject....its one of those questions that bring up 10 more questions. I hope someone else can bring the light in on this subject!



LBolt -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/26/2008 11:00:07 AM)

My reason for posting this was to counter the argument that apostles and prophets ceased after the original 12 apostles died out. It's a sarcastic post sorry. [;)]



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/26/2008 11:37:21 AM)

quote:

I still have a lot of studing to do on this subject....its one of those questions that bring up 10 more questions. I hope someone else can bring the light in on this subject!
Me, too.

One question that I have is about the "office." Where is the institution of that in scripture? Are those in any church "office" to be ordained? Does that mean that Isaiah and Jeremiah (et al) were "ordained" (or whatever the appropriate wording is) by the Jews in OT times?

Also, if we know that apostles and prophets are passed away because scripture is closed, why didn't more apostles and prophets write scripture to be cannonized? Saying that "apostles and prophets are passed away because scripture is closed" indicates that they had no other purpose.

Also, if Christ was the "last prophet" than what do we do with John's Revelations? Doesn't that mean that none of it is prophetic and it can only be referring to past and then present events?

The more logic I try to make out of this, the more lost I get.

ETA:quote



LBolt -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/27/2008 8:49:36 AM)

Let God be true (that include the word of God) and let man (man-made surmises, doctrines, belief) be a liar. You don't have to apologize for what you know to be true in the word of God or be lost. Walk in what you know.



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/27/2008 9:46:08 AM)

I'm with you, LBolt.

I guess what I want out of this thread is to be shown the scripture that really fits with this doctrine. I've studied a lot of books of the Bible, but certainly don't know it all. I have been under the assumption that this office and gift passing doctrine was probably in there. Right now, I am ready to get to the bottom of it and either put that assumption in the trash or understand it so that I could scripturally and logically regurgitate it to others.



JesKlu -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/27/2008 8:51:20 PM)

There were only 12 apostles, the ones Jesus appointed.

1 Corinthians 15:3-4
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. (ESV)

Then, Jesus appointed the Apostle Paul to be the Apostle to the gentiles.

1 Corinthians 15:8-9
8Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. (ESV)

It seems that Paul was the last apostle. So, like Soxfan said, the office of Apostle was only a temporary one.

The Office of Apostle is the office when Jesus talks face to face with a person in private revelations. That has been completed. It was through these private revelations that Holy Scripture was written. What Jesus revealed to the Apostles, the Apostles wrote down for us to read in the coming generations. It has been completed. For someone to claim they are an Apostle is to say they have private revelations of Jesus Christ, and that can't happen anymore because everything that was to be revealed to us has been written down from Genesis to Revelation in Sacred Scripture. Everything is written down for us to read and to meditate on. We don't need private revelations anymore. We now have faith. We don't need to see, we just have to believe.

John 20:26-29
26Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/27/2008 10:18:12 PM)

So...the other scripture calling others apostles are wrong? I posted them earlier, if you want to refer back.



Ezra -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/28/2008 3:25:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant

quote:

I still have a lot of studing to do on this subject....its one of those questions that bring up 10 more questions. I hope someone else can bring the light in on this subject!
Me, too.


Let me try and shed some light on this subject. I have not been following this thread, but will respond to this post by HisCovenant.

quote:

One question that I have is about the "office." Where is the institution of that in scripture?


Paul uses the word "office" when speaking of the office of pastor/elder/bishop in 1 Tim. 2:1. The Greek word is equivalent to "overseership". Correspondingly, Peter uses the word "apostleship" in Acts 1:25 to indicate the office of apostle. The only other office is that of deacon (1 Tim. 3:13).

Christ instituted the office of apostleship at the time when the 12 disciples became the 12 apostles ("sent ones") (Mt. 10:1,2). This is also when He gave them power over unclean spirits, and all manner of sickness and disease, and sent them to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

quote:

Are those in any church "office" to be ordained?


"Appointed" is more accurate, since God ordains (calls for a specific purposes and ministry) and men appoint as led by the Holy Spirit. See Acts 13:1-5 and Tit. 1:5. Paul appointed Titus, and Titus was to appoint elders in every city (even though the word ordain is used here).

Traditionalist churches teach "apostolic succession", but this is not really borne out, since we have the RCC and EOC both at odds with each other and both claiming true apostolic succession (also claimed by the Anglican church).

quote:

Does that mean that Isaiah and Jeremiah (et al) were "ordained" (or whatever the appropriate wording is) by the Jews in OT times?


No. A prophet of God in the OT was never "ordained" by men, but was called directly by God and answerable to God alone. The prophets were generally persecuted by the Jews. (The levitical priesthood was instituted by God, and was reserved exclusively for the descendants of Aaron. No man could appoint himself to this priesthood).

quote:

Also, if we know that apostles and prophets are passed away because scripture is closed, why didn't more apostles and prophets write scripture to be cannonized? Saying that "apostles and prophets are passed away because scripture is closed" indicates that they had no other purpose.


Actually, it is the other way around. The canon of Scripture is closed because the prophets and apostles have passed away, and no man speaks by Divine inspiration or direct revelation any more. God closed that mode of communication with the last book in the Bible, and the apostle John makes this quite clear. Not a single "Early Church Father" ever claimed to be an apostle or prophet (A.D. 100-400).

Had apostles and prophets continued, we would have had a never-ending stream of Scriptures. Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet and claimed that he had received additional Scriptures (the Book of Mormon) but this is completely false.

quote:

Also, if Christ was the "last prophet" than what do we do with John's Revelations? Doesn't that mean that none of it is prophetic and it can only be referring to past and then present events?


Christ is not "the last prophet" but "the Prophet" who was foretold by Moses (Acts 7:37). God spoke in times past "by the prophets" but in these last days He has spoken unto us by, in, and through His Son (Heb. 1:1,2). Because Christ is the Word of God and the Wisdom of God, He is also the Prophet -- the prophet of all prophets, since every word He spoke was a word of and from God -- words which are spirit and life.

However, Christ, after He ascended "gave gifts to men" (Eph. 4:7-11), two of which are apostles and prophets. The apostles were both apostles and prophets, and what they spoke or wrote by Divine inspiration was equal to the OT Scriptures (2 Pet. 1:19-21; 3:15,16). Paul was the most prolific of all the apostle/prophets.

The book of Revelation is not the Revelation of John but "the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass" (Rev. 1:1). John received these revelations in visions, and it is a truly prophetic book which covers the entire span of history and takes us into eternity.

What we do with John's revelations is take them to heart and understand that the majority of this book speaks of events yet future -- the Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, the Millenium, and eternity future.



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/28/2008 5:26:20 PM)

Prophecy is another office, listed in Ephesians 4 (I believe.)

Why, then, are there more than 12 apostles in the Bible? I believe I am counting 22 listed in scripture, including Christ, the 13 (who are commonly called the 12,) Paul, Barnabus, Titus, Andronicus, Junais, and Epaphroditus? Why can't scripture be closed if the office exists? I believe scripture is closed according to Revelations, so I'm with you there. I just don't see why they are mutually exclusive.

Oh, and what about the gifts that many say have passed, like apostleship, prophecy, miracles, healings, tongues, etc? Not speaking of the "office" in this question, just the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor, Romans, Ephesians, and 1 Peter.



Ezra -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/28/2008 6:20:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
Prophecy is another office, listed in Ephesians 4 (I believe.)


In Eph. 4:11, we have a list of gifted men given to the Church, including apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These men also have the corresponding spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12-14.

quote:

Why, then, are there more than 12 apostles in the Bible?


The Greek word apostolos has two applications: (1) that pertaining to the 12 apostles and their apostleship and (2) a wider reference to missionaries or messengers (apostolos is translated as messenger in Phil. 2:25 KJV). See Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

This in no way detracts from the office of apostle, which is very clear and specific. Hence Christ said to His apostles (anticipating the apostle Paul and excluding the traitor Judas) that they would sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel. Hence the twelve foundations of the heavenly city New Jerusalem have "in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev. 21:14). If the apostleship were vague or unlimited (as some are assuming) these words would not be found in Scripture.

quote:

I believe I am counting 22 listed in scripture, including Christ, the 13 (who are commonly called the 12,) Paul, Barnabus, Titus, Andronicus, Junais, and Epaphroditus?


Since Christ is the Apostle and the Prophet, He must not be included in this discussion as proof of additional apostles. As to the others, they were either considered messengers or missionaries. As for Rom. 16:7, that is a misunderstanding. These men were "noted among the apostles" not as apostles but as noteworthy laborers. And it is highly doubtful whether Matthias was ever meant to replace Judas, since God had chosen the apostle Paul -- "a chosen vessel" -- from the very beginning (Acts 9:15,16).

quote:

Why can't scripture be closed if the office exists?


Once again, Scripture is closed because those bringing direct revelations from God are no longer with us, not the other way around. The office does not exist at present, since nobody claimed to be an apostle or prophet in the first 400 years after the apostles went to be with Christ, and all recognized that the apostleship consisted of the 12 apostles.

Today, we have false apostles and false prophets, such as those in the Mormon church, claiming that these offices are still ongoing. Such is not the case.

quote:

Oh, and what about the gifts that many say have passed, like apostleship, prophecy, miracles, healings, tongues, etc? Not speaking of the "office" in this question, just the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor, Romans, Ephesians, and 1 Peter.


There are two kinds of spiritual gifts: (a) signs, wonders, and miracles and (b) gifts to edify the saints and bring them to maturity.

The gifts associated with the apostles were also the sign gifts, and when the apostles passed away, these signs also passed away. We now walk by faith, not by sight. Notice the reason why these sign gifts were given:

"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; GOD ALSO BEARING THEM WITNESS, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will" (Heb. 2:3,4).

Thus Paul mentioned His ability to perform miracles as a sign of his apostleship: "I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly THE SIGNS OF AN APOSTLE were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Cor. 12:11,12).



LBolt -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/28/2008 7:31:41 PM)

When did signs and wonders and miracles disappear?!! How does this not edify God's people? If you have an illness...doesn't healing edify? Mormonism is false because of it's teachings...prophets and apostles are still here today.

Miracles and the supernatural are still being done. Just because some churches, maybe yours do not believe or see them flow in your church doesn't mean it doesn't occur. Unbelieve and false teaching quenches these manisfestions from occuring.



HisCovenant -> RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" (6/28/2008 11:07:25 PM)

Thanks for reasoning with me. It helps me work through all this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:

Why, then, are there more than 12 apostles in the Bible?


The Greek word apostolos has two applications: (1) that pertaining to the 12 apostles and their apostleship and (2) a wider reference to missionaries or messengers (apostolos is translated as messenger in Phil. 2:25 KJV). See Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.

This in no way detracts from the office of apostle, which is very clear and specific. Hence Christ said to His apostles (anticipating the apostle Paul and excluding the traitor Judas) that they would sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel. Hence the twelve foundations of the heavenly city New Jerusalem have "in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb" (Rev. 21:14). If the apostleship were vague or unlimited (as some are assuming) these words would not be found in Scripture.

What about Thaddaeus (Mt and Mk) vs. Judas, son of James (Lk and Acts) listed as both a part of the twelve?

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
Prophecy is another office, listed in Ephesians 4 (I believe.)

In Eph. 4:11, we have a list of gifted men given to the Church, including apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These men also have the corresponding spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12-14.
But Paul calls them officesas well as gifts in that passage...doesn't he?



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