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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/29/2008 1:18:27 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1767
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
Thanks for reasoning with me. It helps me work through all this.
You're welcome. This topic can become confusing, and everything needs to be carefully examined.
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What about Thaddaeus (Mt and Mk) vs. Judas, son of James (Lk and Acts) listed as both a part of the twelve?
Thaddaeus is actually Judas the brother of James (not Judas Iscariot). He is also called Lebbaeus. And he was one of the twelve. We have four lists of apostles (3 in the Gospels and 1 in Acts) and there are slight variations. So, to review, we have (in the order given in Matthew 10:2-4):
1. Simon Peter [also called Cephas (Kephas) and Simon Bar-Jona (or son of Jona)].
2. Andrew (his brother).
3. James the son of Zebedee (surnamed Boanerges, the son of thunder)
4. John, his brother, the son of Zebedee (surnamed Boanerges, the son of thunder)
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Thomas
8. Matthew the publican
9. James, the son of Alphaeus
10. Judas, the brother of James (also called Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus)
11. Simon the Canaanite (also called Simon Zelotes)
12. Judas Iscariot
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ORIGINAL: HisCovenant
Prophecy is another office, listed in Ephesians 4 (I believe.)
In Eph. 4:11, we have a list of gifted men given to the Church, including apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. These men also have the corresponding spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Cor. 12-14. quote:
But Paul calls them officesas well as gifts in that passage...doesn't he?
No. He does not. This passage is connected with the ascension of Christ and His giving of spiritual gifts to men upon His ascension. The five spiritual gifts listed are those associated with the ministry of the Word, since the purpose of these gifts is "the perfecting [maturing] of the saints" (Eph. 4:12).
Note further, that we are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the Chief Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20). Therefore apostles and prophets were foundational gifts, and once the NT was completed, the written Word replaced these gifts. When we read the Bible, we are building up ourselves on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, since apostles and prophets spoke by Divine revelation. This is critical to understanding their gifts (which are not current).
The ministry gifts which are current are evangelists, pastors, and teachers. And everything they speak or write must be squarely based upon what the apostles and prophets have written. They may neither add to nor substract from the Word of God, and they must interpret Scripture with Scripture.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/29/2008 2:00:22 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1767
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
When did signs and wonders and miracles disappear?!!
When the apostles and those upon whom they had laid hands passed away. Back in 1918 B.B. Warfield wrote a book called Counterfeit Miracles. He was a leading conservative scholar and did the necessary research and states (page 10): "The writings of the so-called Apostolic Fathers [those who came immediately after the apostles] contain no clear and certain allusions to miracle-working, or the exercise of the charismatic gifts, contemporaneously with themselves".
IOW Christian writers who had personally known the apostles, did not perform miracles themselves or write about them. As a matter of fact, the further away the writers were from the apostles, the more they wrote about alleged miracles, and this was in conjunction with the formation of the Catholic Church. Warfield comments "Meanwhile, the fact remains that throughout the history of the church miracles have rather been thrust upon than laid claim to by their workers" (p. 50).
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How does this not edify God's people? If you have an illness...doesn't healing edify?
The issue is not whether God works miracles (including the miracle of healing) in answer to prayers today. He absolutely does, and they are most edifying in that they build up the faith of the saints. But those are not signs and wonders accompanying men who are apostles and prophets and authenticating their minsitry. The elders of a church may pray believingly and see miracles. You and I may pray believingly and experience miracles.
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Mormonism is false because of it's teachings...prophets and apostles are still here today.
One of the false teachings of Mormonism is the existence of current apostles and prophets, and Joseph Smith, Ellen G. White, etc. all brought false teachings with their so-called prophetic gift. If your statement is true, then the Bible is not sufficient as stated by Paul in 2 Tim. 3:16,17. But the book of Revelation makes it clear that the Bible is complete, and no further prophecy may be added to it.
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Miracles and the supernatural are still being done. Just because some churches, maybe yours do not believe or see them flow in your church doesn't mean it doesn't occur. Unbelieve and false teaching quenches these manisfestions from occuring.
Such claims are being made all the time, therefore your comment is not surprising. And the false teaching of the RCC is apparently OK since the RCC also claims that miracles are being manifested in Lourdes and other locations, and that Mary is responsible for these.
The questions we should ask ourselves is this:
Was there a very specific reason for the miracles of the Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles, and was there a connection between Divine revelation and its authentication by signs, wonders, and miracles?
Now that we have a complete Bible, are we not expected to walk by faith and not by sight? Are we to look for signs and wonders or are we to proclaim the Gospel and build ourselves up on the foundation of the apostles and prophets as laid in Scripture?
God continues to work His miracles daily, generally in answer to prayers. But if we have been deceived by false apostles and prophets claiming to be wonder-workers, then it is time to consider the existence of counterfeit miracles, and why they are being manifested today.
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Spiritual Gifts and "Offices" - 6/29/2008 11:13:07 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2436
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
Mormonism is false because of it's teachings...prophets and apostles are still here today.
If your statement is true, then the Bible is not sufficient as stated by Paul in 2 Tim. 3:16,17. But the book of Revelation makes it clear that the Bible is complete, and no further prophecy may be added to it.
Greetings,
I believe LBolt meant to say the original 12 Apostles did not add further prophecy to the book,
Revealed truth is not adding...to the scriptures, revealed truth is the power given to diciples by the promise of the Father.'
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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