RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (Full Version)

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jkdjr25 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/19/2008 6:30:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam

Unfortunately, we're allowing the left to get away with all the "torture" talk, when in fact the methods used in interrogating these guys is anything but.

What happened at Abu Ghraib was regrettable, but hardly indicative of our entire military establishment.....


Bzzzzt! oh I'm sorry but that answer is incorrect. Waterboarding is a form of psychological torture and it was used on more than a few people.

Good try though.

Can't trust those doctors though, I mean really. You just can't trust a group of people who work to ban landmines, or send people into Darfur to help refugees and give out medical treatment. Want kind of people are those? [8|]

I'm not surprised a report like this came out. Of course there are going to be a lot of people here who just say "so what" or try and cast dispersions on the people behind the report. Because the only folks you can trust are neo-con republicans who work for the President, they'd never lie to the American people.



ljmac -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/19/2008 8:19:04 PM)

This was so predictable, the very people who accuse our military and government of torture by yelling at someone believes in live human dismemberment. I guess if it's an unborn child, chopping off a baby's limbs or ripping out her intestines isn't torture.

Physicians for Human Rights (of some people) have advocated restrictions on the Mexico City policy, telling GWB to give money to organizations that do abortions. They also insisted that money for PEPFAR, an anti-AIDS program, be given to organizations that do abortions.

Disembowel a baby? A human right
Keep a terrorist awake? Torture

Where are my human rights?



fiat_lux -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/19/2008 9:58:10 PM)

quote:

No, I wasn't trying to say I think the abuse of the prisoners was appropriate or ok, I know I didn't really clarify that in my previous post though!

What I was trying to say was that I think a lot of people are sick and tired of the media only making a big fuss when it's the detainees or prisoners being abused, or even possibly abused, yet when it is an American soldier or civilian there is not much more than a mention of it. And then usually it's followed up with another MAJOR story breaking of detainee abuse. It's just a little much to take.

Ah - sorry, I did misinterpret you then, my bad. In that case I totally agree that there are some disturbing editorial slants at work in some of the coverage. Obviously it is definitely worthy of mention when people from our side suffer, as well. I guess maybe people just assume such things will happen and therefore don't report on it, but that's a bad excuse more than it is a valid reason.

quote:

Is it possible that they were pointing weapons at our troops, or smuggling weapons into the combat zone, or caught planting bombs, or making bombs, found plotting to do one of those things? No, of course not! They wouldn't do anything like that! They were merely innocent bystanders that the evil Americans wanted to torture. Hogwash! There were certainly some reason for detaining them, otherwise every Iraqi would have been detained.

Based on this logic, we might just as easily say "well, there's no need for a trial, I'm sure the policeman wouldn't have arrested you if you weren't doing something wrong." Look, I'm not against holding them. If there's evidence that they've done any of those illegal things, then charge them, try them, convict them, and restrain them in whatever prison is appropriate. (Heck, even Guantanamo.) In the meantime they're still human beings and, fortunately, we do not live in a society where arrest equals guilt.

The specific case here is torture. Which crimes do you think are sufficient to warrant us torturing someone? I draw the line at zero. I suspect the law agrees with me on this one.

More to the point, most of the prisoners in question - or all? I can't recall - aren't Iraqi. Most of the Iraqis are arrested are still in Iraq. And I'm pretty sure the U.S. army culdn't arrest the entire population of Iraq even if it wanted to. Which it doesn't - something you and I can agree on, at any rate.

quote:

This is xmas for liberals. And it looks about as real as Frosty the Snowman...

This is rumor, joyously spread by liberals.

Al Queda dosen't need a propoganda machine. This is it.

I'm not a liberal, nor do I work for Al Qaeda, but if you feel it weakens my argument to make such allegations, feel free to slander away.

quote:

This was so predictable, the very people who accuse our military and government of torture by yelling at someone believes in live human dismemberment. I guess if it's an unborn child, chopping off a baby's limbs or ripping out her intestines isn't torture.

That would probably be more accurately called killing, and it so happens that I am against that as well.

Apparently my moral lines are too black and white.



wing2000 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 12:18:51 AM)

quote:

Our kids are gonna curse us for today handing Caesar the power that we are now giving him. You don't think he will be at peace with Christianity forever, do you?


Yes, it's amazing that so many so-called 'conservatives' have no issue with the government locking up any one they deem to be a terrorist -- with no judicial oversight -- or independent review --- in a "war" that by definition...will never end.

I really don't get it.



ljmac -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 12:34:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiat_lux

quote:

No, I wasn't trying to say I think the abuse of the prisoners was appropriate or ok, I know I didn't really clarify that in my previous post though!

What I was trying to say was that I think a lot of people are sick and tired of the media only making a big fuss when it's the detainees or prisoners being abused, or even possibly abused, yet when it is an American soldier or civilian there is not much more than a mention of it. And then usually it's followed up with another MAJOR story breaking of detainee abuse. It's just a little much to take.

Ah - sorry, I did misinterpret you then, my bad. In that case I totally agree that there are some disturbing editorial slants at work in some of the coverage. Obviously it is definitely worthy of mention when people from our side suffer, as well. I guess maybe people just assume such things will happen and therefore don't report on it, but that's a bad excuse more than it is a valid reason.

quote:

Is it possible that they were pointing weapons at our troops, or smuggling weapons into the combat zone, or caught planting bombs, or making bombs, found plotting to do one of those things? No, of course not! They wouldn't do anything like that! They were merely innocent bystanders that the evil Americans wanted to torture. Hogwash! There were certainly some reason for detaining them, otherwise every Iraqi would have been detained.

Based on this logic, we might just as easily say "well, there's no need for a trial, I'm sure the policeman wouldn't have arrested you if you weren't doing something wrong." Look, I'm not against holding them. If there's evidence that they've done any of those illegal things, then charge them, try them, convict them, and restrain them in whatever prison is appropriate. (Heck, even Guantanamo.) In the meantime they're still human beings and, fortunately, we do not live in a society where arrest equals guilt.

The specific case here is torture. Which crimes do you think are sufficient to warrant us torturing someone? I draw the line at zero. I suspect the law agrees with me on this one.

More to the point, most of the prisoners in question - or all? I can't recall - aren't Iraqi. Most of the Iraqis are arrested are still in Iraq. And I'm pretty sure the U.S. army culdn't arrest the entire population of Iraq even if it wanted to. Which it doesn't - something you and I can agree on, at any rate.

quote:

This is xmas for liberals. And it looks about as real as Frosty the Snowman...

This is rumor, joyously spread by liberals.

Al Queda dosen't need a propoganda machine. This is it.

I'm not a liberal, nor do I work for Al Qaeda, but if you feel it weakens my argument to make such allegations, feel free to slander away.

quote:

This was so predictable, the very people who accuse our military and government of torture by yelling at someone believes in live human dismemberment. I guess if it's an unborn child, chopping off a baby's limbs or ripping out her intestines isn't torture.

That would probably be more accurately called killing, and it so happens that I am against that as well.

Apparently my moral lines are too black and white.


Thrills found in rumored abusive behavior by our soldiers is a gift to terrorists.

Your moral lines aren't so black and white if you can't call live dismemberment torture.



rnershigh -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 9:34:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: rnershigh
I can't find it in my heart to look at those detained as victims.
I'm sorry, but I can't.
Call me cruel or unsympathetic if you will, but where was their sympathy for what they have done to families and loved ones of the soldiers that died at their hands?

I'm not calling you cruel or unsympathetic; I am calling you irrational on this issue.

If the same thing were done in the US, it would be akin to the police going into a high-crime neighborhood, rounding up random people on the street, and sending them to jail. Most people would call this move unreasonable and a violation of civil liberties and civil rights.

I tend to assume people are innocent unless they are shooting at me or otherwise shown to be guilty.


I'm not irrational, but thank you for your oh-so perceptive insight though.
It's really appreciated. [8|]



blessedinnyc -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 9:47:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

This was so predictable... [rant about the thing that always gets ranted about]

Almost as predictable as the attempted threadjack.

quote:

I'm not irrational, but thank you for your oh-so perceptive insight though.
It's really appreciated.

I'm not saying you are irrational- I'm just saying you're being irrational on this.

It's easy to generalize people who haven't been tried as guilty, but a lot of people are found not-guilty and often later turn out to be completely innocent. Or maybe you assume that because injustice is going on in another country, it doesn't really matter.

If you were to compare what happened at Abu Ghraib to what might happen in the US, it might be that the Chicago Police goes into a certain high-crime neighborhood in Chicago, rounds up a whole bunch of random people off the street, and then tries to extract confessions by them by the use of torture.

Whether or not you feel bad for them (I'm not saying you have to), the fact that you don't feel bad for them shouldn't change the fact that this activity is grossly unacceptable.



Sophie11 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 9:50:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

It's easy to generalize people who haven't been tried as guilty, but a lot of people are found not-guilty and often later turn out to be completely innocent. Or maybe you assume that because injustice is going on in another country, it doesn't really matter.

If you were to compare what happened at Abu Ghraib to what might happen in the US, it might be that the Chicago Police goes into a certain high-crime neighborhood in Chicago, rounds up a whole bunch of random people off the street, and then tries to extract confessions by them by the use of torture.

Whether or not you feel bad for them (I'm not saying you have to), the fact that you don't feel bad for them shouldn't change the fact that this activity is grossly unacceptable.


It also seems to be easy for some to generalize soldiers as having done nothing more than pick innocent civilians off the streets of Iraq.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 9:52:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Why thank you, you did a wonderful job of cherry picking my comments in order to use them in this post.

I answered your question, did I not?

quote:

But if you could please tell me the charges that were brought against the victims of 911

Why should charges be brought against the deceased victims of 9-11? Or the deceased perpetrators, for that matter?

quote:

and our troops and civilians that are tortured over there

You have to find them first. And don't lump civilians in with troops; soldiers are covered under the Geneva Convention.

quote:

If I mistakenly overlooked the news articles about there being charges brought against said US citizens then I am sorry

What are you saying-- that only US citizens are worthy of justice? How very Roman . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
I am against torture (rightly defined), and think such actions should cease - but it has nothing to do with 'charging' captured combatants, which the military shouldn't be burdened with.

No, the detainees the article is talking about were not combatants, but rather "terror suspects" who apparently were suspected, yet never charged. Instead they were detained for God only knows how long enduring "interrogations" that were clearly aimed to coerce confessions out of them.

Even being detained without the torture, yet without charges, is still abuse. Once habeus corpus was disregarded, so was any sense of decency and justice. We are supposed to be above this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: takfam
Unfortunately, we're allowing the left to get away with all the "torture" talk, when in fact the methods used in interrogating these guys is anything but.

"In a 121-page report, the doctors' group said that it uncovered medical evidence of torture, including beatings, electric shock, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, sodomy and scores of other abuses."
Just what in blue blazes does qualify as torture in your narrow, little view?

quote:

ORIGIANAL: lpt
Who is "Physicians for Human Rights,"

Here is the answer that you could have looked up yourself.

quote:

and how did they conclude that these detainees were "tortured"?

"according to medical examinations detailed in a report released Wednesday by a human rights group"
Have you never had nor witnessed a medical examination?



tafkam -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 10:09:37 AM)

quote:

Waterboarding is a form of psychological torture and it was used on more than a few people.


In your opinion. FYI, your opinion does not make fact any more than mine does.

Personally, I have no problem with waterboarding. A little water over your head? Oh, the humanity!

Sorry about that...



Sophie11 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 10:16:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11
Why thank you, you did a wonderful job of cherry picking my comments in order to use them in this post.

I answered your question, did I not?

No because you answered a sarcastic question in order to try to attribute your own meanings to my thoughts.

quote:

quote:

But if you could please tell me the charges that were brought against the victims of 911

Why should charges be brought against the deceased victims of 9-11? Or the deceased perpetrators, for that matter?

Another fine example of you trying to make believe you find my sarcastic comments to be my true thoughts.

quote:

quote:

and our troops and civilians that are tortured over there

You have to find them first. And don't lump civilians in with troops; soldiers are covered under the Geneva Convention.

I'm sorry, but the reality is that these insurgents we fight over there do not recognize the geneva convention, and above that they outright deny it. Nice try though.

quote:

quote:

If I mistakenly overlooked the news articles about there being charges brought against said US citizens then I am sorry

What are you saying-- that only US citizens are worthy of justice? How very Roman . . .

Yet again, some folks just can't recognize sarcasm when it's staring them in the face.
You may have wanted to finish my side of the quote up there if you were actually attempting to answer a real question. My statement finished, with "then I am sorry, I suppose the media was being fair after all". It was a comment about the hypocrisy and double standard in the media, as were everything else I said and basically all conversation previous to your first post.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 10:19:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

It also seems to be easy for some to generalize soldiers as having done nothing more than pick innocent civilians off the streets of Iraq.

I don't even know if it was our soldiers. My understanding is that a lot of the people in Abu Ghraib were there because organized militias brought them there.

My only question is how do we know they're guilty if we haven't tried them?



Sophie11 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 10:22:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

It also seems to be easy for some to generalize soldiers as having done nothing more than pick innocent civilians off the streets of Iraq.

I don't even know if it was our soldiers. My understanding is that a lot of the people in Abu Ghraib were there because organized militias brought them there.

My only question is how do we know they're guilty if we haven't tried them?


Well maybe I misunderstood you then, sorry bout that.

My problem is with the people who imply that our troops do nothing more than randomly selecting civilians who they know to be innocent off the street just to torture them for kicks.



mapachito13 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 10:35:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lpt

Who is "Physicians for Human Rights," and how did they conclude that these detainees were "tortured"?


Physicians for Human Rights

quote:

I'm inclined to believe that our military policies do not permit such torture. I'm inclined to believe that those who want to kill Americans have no problem lying to Americans about having been "tortured."


Kind of like the President who lied to us about the real reason we went to Iraq? "It's the WMD's!" Scratch that to "give the Iraqi people freedom!" Now that sounds better!

Military policies may not allow it but if everyone followed the law or policies in the military JAG would be unnecessary.

quote:

I can hear the cries from the Leftists: "I support the troops! The ones who torture detainees!"


More like "I support the troops BUT NOT the ones who torture anyone!"

I can hear the right wingers now, "Let's nuke them and let God sort it out. Having ethics in war is just too complicated!"



blessedinnyc -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 10:47:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

Well maybe I misunderstood you then, sorry bout that.

My problem is with the people who imply that our troops do nothing more than randomly selecting civilians who they know to be innocent off the street just to torture them for kicks.

I don't think anyone is claiming that.

There's two problems that I see with Abu Ghraib:

1.) Torture is unacceptable under any circumstance, which includes attacking inmates with dogs, putting bags over their heads and simulating executions, and perhaps doing things that force people to effectively violate the tenets of their religion.

2.) Even if torture is somehow acceptable, if people aren't shooting at you but instead are in your custody, they are innocent until they have been tried and found guilty.



Sophie11 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 10:51:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

Well maybe I misunderstood you then, sorry bout that.

My problem is with the people who imply that our troops do nothing more than randomly selecting civilians who they know to be innocent off the street just to torture them for kicks.

I don't think anyone is claiming that.


But you see, when you make the statement that it is similiar to the police going out and randomly rounding up civilians on the street, is that not almost the same thing? And well, besides your statement I have heard others outright say that is what happens for sure.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 11:12:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11
But you see, when you make the statement that it is similiar to the police going out and randomly rounding up civilians on the street, is that not almost the same thing? And well, besides your statement I have heard others outright say that is what happens for sure.

I guess in this case, it was really a bunch of members of a gang who tricked the police into thinking they were a neighborhood watch organization who did the rounding up.

But whether or not the military did the actual arresting, whoever did it was seen as an agent of the US government. And I think that's the problem.



1dblthnk02 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 11:16:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam
Personally, I have no problem with waterboarding. A little water over your head? Oh, the humanity!

It induces a state of mental panic and anguish akin to drowning. If it were just "a little water over your head," then why would they, and several other repugnant, despotic regimes throughout the world, bother to employ it as an interrogation method?
C'mon!

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13
"Having ethics in war is just too complicated!"

So you heard that , too, eh?



jkdjr25 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 12:07:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sophie11

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

It's easy to generalize people who haven't been tried as guilty, but a lot of people are found not-guilty and often later turn out to be completely innocent. Or maybe you assume that because injustice is going on in another country, it doesn't really matter.

If you were to compare what happened at Abu Ghraib to what might happen in the US, it might be that the Chicago Police goes into a certain high-crime neighborhood in Chicago, rounds up a whole bunch of random people off the street, and then tries to extract confessions by them by the use of torture.

Whether or not you feel bad for them (I'm not saying you have to), the fact that you don't feel bad for them shouldn't change the fact that this activity is grossly unacceptable.


Blackwater certainly did that, and thanks to an agreement made by the administration , they can't be charged for it.

By and large our soldiers are honorable. However there are some who aren't, and those are the ones who do bad things. We aren't thrilled by it, it's heartbreaking.
It also seems to be easy for some to generalize soldiers as having done nothing more than pick innocent civilians off the streets of Iraq.



mapachito13 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/20/2008 3:42:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

This was so predictable, the very people who accuse our military and government of torture by yelling at someone believes in live human dismemberment. I guess if it's an unborn child, chopping off a baby's limbs or ripping out her intestines isn't torture.


I knew someone was going to use the strawman abortion argument but it doesn't hold water.

Muslims are against abortion, some muslims are terrorists therefore, pro-life supporters are terrorists? Do you see the fallacy in that form of reasoning now?



OneJohn410 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/21/2008 1:39:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WormHeart

quote:

Former terrorist suspects detained by the United States were tortured, according to medical examinations detailed in a report released Wednesday by a human rights group.

The Massachusetts-based Physicians for Human Rights reached that conclusion after two-day clinical evaluations of 11 former detainees, who had been held at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and in Afghanistan.

The detainees were never charged with crimes.

"We found clear physical and psychological evidence of torture and abuse, often causing lasting suffering," said Dr. Allen Keller, a medical evaluator for the study.

In a 121-page report, the doctors' group said that it uncovered medical evidence of torture, including beatings, electric shock, sleep deprivation, sexual humiliation, sodomy and scores of other abuses.

The report is prefaced by retired U.S. Major Gen. Antonio Taguba, who led the Army's investigation into the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal in 2003.


WASHINGTON (CNN)

[:'(]

WormHeart


That's the first half of the picture, but to really discuss the past, why stop right there? Are you going to present the rest of the story too, WormHeart?

Although some would like to punish our entire military might for the actions of a few, that would be to hold everyone guilty before they have a chance to prove innocence.

Stepping forward from this OP, we later find still IN THE PAST NOW, that several people that were holding keys at Abu G in Gitmo were placed on trial, and I have no more to say on this because I'm not going to misquote the past. Let's get some more CNN quotes in this thread on the follow-up of those video tapes made in Gitmo. Let's talk about how the US held some folks accountable, has made some changes- HOW WE ARE ALWAYS STRIVING TO BETTER OURSELVES. That's something about this kind of fighting a war, who's done it before? This war on terror, not on Enemy country X, but on a form of thinking that would use mentally challenged people as human bombs, hey! What country has ever stepped up before the United States and said such actions are not called for in today's world, and are no longer going to be tolerated? I can't think of any. Sure, it's a real high and mighty position to take. Sure, it may well be that it's exactly what those who rile up people to strap on bombs to themselves and blow themselves and 50 other up wanted to see happen. Surely they are watching all of our news, listening to all the dissent in our country, and seeking to increase it. The United States of America, who lost so many innocent lives in NYC, and at our Pentagon building, and the USS Cole, and other places... we said enough is enough.

I'll get those follow up quotes for y'all if I don't see them soon. I'm not going to play I'm wrong, you are right with only half the deck of cards.

I bet anyone unhappy to be at Gitmo would refuse to leave if they knew they were being placed right back into the conditions in which they were found.

OneJohn410



lpt -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/21/2008 11:54:12 AM)

mapachito13, you wrote, "Kind of like the President who lied to us about the real reason we went to Iraq?"

You are either misunformed yourself, or lying in order to misinform others. The President did not lie about our reasons for removing Suddam Hussein from power. Everyone had access to the same intelligence, and nearly everyone concurred with its veracity, including the Clintons, Al Gore, Edwards, Kerry, Kennedy, and so on.

This "the President lied" lie is getting old and tired. Say it often enough, and people start believing that lie.



rlj -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/21/2008 12:08:27 PM)

quote:

You are either misunformed yourself, or lying in order to misinform others. The President did not lie about our reasons for removing Suddam Hussein from power. Everyone had access to the same intelligence, and nearly everyone concurred with its veracity, including the Clintons, Al Gore, Edwards, Kerry, Kennedy, and so on.


Have some Nigerian Yellow Cake with your coffee this morning? ; ) The problem with that is this: Everyone thought but no one knew. No one could have possibly known so why say it was true? Not only did they say it was true when it was imaginary but we got a list of all of these imaginary weapons.

We can go into the "alleged ties" between Iraq and AQ and the times that Cheney said there was a direct tie with them yet 600,000 documents and pieces of information later there was none.

There was only ever 1 solid reason to go to Iraq. Everything else was fabricated. Amazingly 5 years after the invasion people started agreeing with me when I said there was only one reason to go in the first place. Of course when every reason but one has been disproved one would think people would be honest enough to re-assess things. Not many administration supporters though but there are a few.



mapachito13 -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/23/2008 5:27:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lpt

mapachito13, you wrote, "Kind of like the President who lied to us about the real reason we went to Iraq?"

You are either misunformed yourself, or lying in order to misinform others. The President did not lie about our reasons for removing Suddam Hussein from power. Everyone had access to the same intelligence, and nearly everyone concurred with its veracity, including the Clintons, Al Gore, Edwards, Kerry, Kennedy, and so on.

This "the President lied" lie is getting old and tired. Say it often enough, and people start believing that lie.


Like the lie there were WMD's in Iraq? Then a President that will go to war in a heartbeat over faulty intelligence is either extremely gullible or just plain stupid! My vote is for the latter expanation. Also, since the Clinton administration had access to this information and didn't send 130k troops over there to Iraq to have 4000 brave young men die over faulty intelligence may show his IQ may have been 1 point higher than Bush.

Bush used 9-11 hysteria as an excuse to start a war that was about revenge and oil. If it wasn't then he should have attacked Saudi Arabia where 15 of the 19 hijackers were from or Iran, North Korea or Sudan (his infamous axis of evil) or Pakistan (where Osama is hiding) but instead he went off on a tangent and hit Iraq????



tracydolls -> RE: Report: Exams reveal abuse, torture of detainees (6/23/2008 5:54:38 AM)

If we are for the torture and killing of our enemies, then why kill Saddam, he only killed and tortured his enemies.


Sometimes I wish I could sit on a island and watch Bo become prez. have another Tim Mcveigh come along.. and then Bo say all people that look like him are terrorists.. lock them all up. Or how about a Christian kill another abortion doctor and then all the Christians get locked up. Of course not me, because I'm on the island by myself.



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