Why didn't the Jews believe? (Full Version)

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mms727 -> Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/19/2008 3:54:56 PM)

I was reading Romans 10 and the question came to mind...why did many Jews in those days not believe in Jesus? and today? So I looked it up on the internet to try and find a Jewish perspective. I don't know if this is a good source, but...

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/jewsandjesus.htm#1

The main ones that I was looking at are:
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"1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES (back)

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.


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2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH (back)

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David! (2)
SEE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH'S RESPONSE TO THIS QUESTION

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot (commandments) remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"


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3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS (back)

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."

In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.

Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.

From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nazianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

For further reading on the "suffering servant":
www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-ss.html


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I don't know the original language myself so really cannot defend these excpet that I know Christ is the Son of God and that I believe what the Bible says- the thing is the point of several these arguments is that the Bible I am reading is misinterpeted.

Could someone tell me what these words meant in the original translation? Is it what the article says or are there alternate meanings?

Thank you for any information. I'm not doubting my faith or anything like that- I just like to know both sides. :)

Megan



Cloak -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/19/2008 8:22:55 PM)

This is the same question I keep asking myself as well. I even pray for the Jews that they would see the light that is only found in nobody...but Jesus.

Believe it or not, many Jews are becoming Christians. Let's just keep them in our prayers persistently![;)]



LBolt -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/19/2008 8:57:35 PM)

Also, realize that in the infancy of the "church", many Jews were being saved! The problem is not with Yahshua's teachings because He taught Torah and did not contradict it. What he did contradict with the Oral Law of the Pharisees and rabbi's. In Judiasm, the adhere to 2 Torahs. The written Torah of Genesis-Deut and the Oral Law of Moses, which was supposedly given to Moses during the 40 year wilderness wandering that was not committed to writing but passed on orally. The Oral Law was to interpret the Torah (Bible one). It was later wrote done and contain in the Mishna and Babylonian Talmud.

Often times the Oral law, which contained the tradition of men, superceded the God's Torah of which was forbidden according to Deut. 4:2.

As far as the virgin birth, Mary was indeed a virgin when she concieved and it is accurately translated as such. She knew no man. Mary was of the lineage of David and by Joseph being his step-father, he was legally his father.

quote:

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"


Messiah did not observe Sabbath according to the Oral law of the Pharisees and rabbi's after it myraid rules and regulations! He did observe it according to the Torah! Megan, if you go to the Law thread, we discuss some of this in detail. Paul's seeming contradiction of Torah is cleared up alittle. Although there are those who disagree, if you take the time and study for yourself, you'll see it more clearly.

I'm sorry Isaiah 53 does describe the suffering Messiah, "But He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities..." No one else but Messiah could pay the penalty for our sin.



bob97 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/20/2008 2:09:01 AM)

Very simply... the Old testament people were blinded to Christ. Just as the faces of Moses was veiled when he came down from the mountain from seeing Christ.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

Bob



bob97 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/20/2008 2:15:07 AM)

Only when the Spirit writes the Torah in our hearts can we understand the glory of Christ. Just as Paul didn't understand Christ until Christ was revealed to Paul on the road could he understand Genesis 15:6. Paul then ask himself...how could I have missed what faith did for Abram.

Bob



RJR_fan -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/20/2008 3:41:13 AM)

quote:

Very simply... the Old testament people were blinded to Christ.


Actually, the Jews weren't / aren't the "Old Testament people." They were /are addicted to rabbinic supplemental texts, and preferred/prefer those to God's own Word. See John 8. "If you honored Moses, you would honor me, because Moses wrote about me."



WesP -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/20/2008 9:06:27 AM)

The long and short of it is that the Jews were and are seeking a Messiah that comes to rule this world. Anticipation of glory here on earth blinded them to the promise of salvation through Christ. He fulfilled the prophecies but not in the manner that they were expecting. Plus, there are those "pesky" prophecies yet to be fulfilled that keeps them looking.



bzirk -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/20/2008 11:43:00 AM)

quote:

He fulfilled the prophecies but not in the manner that they were expecting.


Exactly. A good example is the temple. The Jews thought it would be a building. They completely missed the point.

Peter references the prophecy here:

quote:

I Peter 2

4And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

6For this is contained in Scripture:
"BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

7(O)This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

8and,
"A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.


hosts: uppercase is used in this translation (NASB) when other scripture is referenced.

(other emphasis mine)



Bluethread -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/20/2008 4:37:41 PM)

I am concerned with the use of the phrase "the Jews" here. This may be because of how the title was phrased. That said, even the OP began by saying that some did and do not believe. If there is one thing that offends the genetically jewish, it is being seen as a monolithic group, especially when one is refering to what one considers to be a fault. So, shall we use the phrase "some Jews" or the word Judaism.



bzirk -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/20/2008 4:45:37 PM)

I agree that there were some Jews who believed and they should not all be lumped together.



Bluethread -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/20/2008 5:00:05 PM)

At Shavuot(Pentecost), those who were convinced were probably almost entirely Jewish, since Jerusalem was full people observing that biblically appointed time and Peter was appealing to the Tanach in his speech.



DaveW -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/23/2008 6:26:38 AM)

mms727, are you a believer? Are you Jewish?



mms727 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/23/2008 3:46:57 PM)

I am a believer, but am not Jewish. I used "the Jews" because it does that in the Bible, but said "many" because I know not all rejected him-- I should have clarified that in the post title.

For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. Joh 5:18

Thank you for your replies. I guess I wonder about how the original translation and words read and meant at the time vs the meaning we get today. I know that the main points are all there and that God protects His Word, but still some of the specifics and things like that.



Bluethread -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/23/2008 5:03:14 PM)

I would acknowledge that the writers of the Apostolic Scriptures used the term Jews to refer to the sects that rejected those who were not decendants of Judah(the southern kingdom). They were living in Israel at a time when the distinction between "Jews" as used in this context and "Jews" when refering to the general population was clear. Unfortunately, such a distinction is not always recognized in theological and cultural circles today.



bob97 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/24/2008 12:18:01 AM)

God didn't recognize the term Jew. He did how ever use the terms Israel and Judah of whom He will save in the latter days.

Bob



BibleL7 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/24/2008 4:39:32 AM)

As to the questions of original language remember that in most languages many words have more than one meaning. As to the not believing is simple that they did not want to believe for it would mean repenting, same reason most people dont believe they dont want to give up sin or be judged for their sin. Of course a few may have not heard the Gospel.



bob97 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/24/2008 8:35:44 AM)

2Co 3:13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart.

Without faith no one can believe.

Bob



DaveW -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/25/2008 8:36:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

God didn't recognize the term Jew. He did how ever use the terms Israel and Judah of whom He will save in the latter days.
Jew = Judah

It is just an english shortening of the word.



bob97 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/25/2008 8:52:36 AM)

True but some say it a word better used to describe the want a be Israelites, those who came into the region when the tribes were removed.

Bob



DaveW -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/25/2008 1:06:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

True but some say it a word better used to describe the want a be Israelites, those who came into the region when the tribes were removed.
That does not fit with modern research. DNA testing on the Jews that know they are of the Aaronic priesthood and the Levites have the same Y chromosome no matter if they are Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Yemenite or Siniim (from China) meaning they all have the same biological father.

The only name I know for people who came into the land after the removal of the Jews is "Palestinians." You can thank the Romans for that one....



JStucki76 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/26/2008 12:42:13 PM)

Another answer can be found in Isaiah 6:9-10. We (the church) tend to wonder what would have happened if the Jews of Jesus' day had accepted him, and many also maintain that God rejected them for their refusal to accept Jesus.

As if God needs a "plan B."

It was God's plan from eternity that the Jewish people would not accept Jesus. How else could he be killed and be the savior of the world? It was furthermore his plan that the gospel be taken to the gentiles and all over the world. Now, many Jews are coming to believe. God is bringing his plan to fruition before our eyes. The Jews, God's chosen people, did EXACTLY what he planned for them to do.



bob97 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/26/2008 2:08:59 PM)

quote:

It was God's plan from eternity that the Jewish people would not accept Jesus.


Exactly JStuck...you are 100% correct! The problem is, this is a fact that many don't want to hear.

Bob



Bluethread -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/26/2008 2:26:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JStucki76

Another answer can be found in Isaiah 6:9-10. We (the church) tend to wonder what would have happened if the Jews of Jesus' day had accepted him, and many also maintain that God rejected them for their refusal to accept Jesus.

As if God needs a "plan B."

It was God's plan from eternity that the Jewish people would not accept Jesus. How else could he be killed and be the savior of the world? It was furthermore his plan that the gospel be taken to the gentiles and all over the world. Now, many Jews are coming to believe. God is bringing his plan to fruition before our eyes. The Jews, God's chosen people, did EXACTLY what he planned for them to do.


If you have read my previous posts, you have seen that it is not quite accurate to say that the Jews of Yeshua(Jesus) day did not accept Him.
The fact is that many did. The crowd in Acts chapter two were for the most part devoted Jews who were gathered for the feast of Shavuot(Pentecost).

One could also say that the gentiles rejected Yeshua, because very few of them showed any interest in Him while He was alive and they were the ones who actually carried out His execution and guarded the tomb.

In fact, it was not Yeshua's rejection by the Jewish establishment that caused the Covenant to be applied to the Gentiles. It is Yeshua's clarification of the command to include the sojourner in that activities of the community(the great commission) and the diaspora(Jews forced out of the land by persecution, many of which were followers of Yeshua) that caused the good news of the Kingdom to be activily taken to the Gentiles. This is how it should have been from the beginning. There are several examples of Gentiles being brought into the Kingdom in the Tanach(old testiment).

Even with that good news proclaimed to the four corners of the world, most(Jew and Gentile) still reject the messages of Yeshua. Some outright, some through watering it down and some through ingorance. The Scriptures tell us, "many are called, but few are chosen."



bob97 -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/26/2008 2:44:37 PM)

quote:

If you have read my previous posts, you have seen that it is not quite accurate to say that the Jews of Yeshua(Jesus) day did not accept Him.
The fact is that many did. The crowd in Acts chapter two were for the most part devoted Jews who were gathered for the feast of Shavuot(Pentecost).


Most that accepted did so after the resurrection, the veil had been rent and the new covenant was now in place. The majority before the resurrection suffered death because of the law and Christ was hidden from them.

Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

Bob



Bluethread -> RE: Why didn't the Jews believe? (6/26/2008 4:57:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Most that accepted did so after the resurrection, the veil had been rent and the new covenant was now in place. The majority before the resurrection suffered death because of the law and Christ was hidden from them also.

Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh

Bob


Then who were those throngs of people that followed him before the ressurrection. Now, I am not saying that all of those people actually believed in Him, but I believe many who call Him "Lord, Lord" today do not really believe because Ha Meshiach is hidden from them.

Yes, many were presecuted as the Prophets were prior to the actual act of redemption. But, I submit, Adonai's people have always been persecuted even to the present day.

Yes, it is easier for some of us who know the details of the redemption to understand and believe. However, to say that Adonai would require the people of Yeshua's time to do that which we feel justified in dismissing seems contrary to Paul's argument against the double standard some applied after Yeshua's death.



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