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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/9/2008 9:26:38 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
i don't believe i have. i have; however, repeadtedly asked for more attention to detail in your questions.
you have not given "specific example" - at best, you've provided snipets. of course, i could quote from the book of common prayer our prayers and petitions, which you seem to be well aware of, to provide additional specific examples of our faith - in addition to the core of who we are as a community - how we understand god and creation.
in speaking of articles of faith, i don't have any serious issues with them - nothing along the lines of "oh if you confess them, your against christ" or anything. what, again is your appreciation of the 39?
just so i'm sure is this it? if so, and you affirm the 39, how, pretell do you reconcile your previous statements of critique on baptism with article 27 or even crammer's article 2 of 10 published in 1536?
regarding post 125 - you seem to have some issue acknowleding our role in the ministry of reconcilliation, the lord's prayer, and numerous other passages of the like - these do not suggest that god is not redeemer, btw and it's awfully a rough reading to suggest that the samaritan had no hand in the rescue of the one left half dead - imagry to answer the question: what must i do to inherit eternal life. the problem we face today, as was when this was first told, is that we often seek to justify ourselves and our rightstanding with god. and the point is, as was with this narrative, is that we ought to live a life of mercy towards those around us.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/9/2008 9:38:11 PM
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colliefan
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facedown,
I will ask you directly, is Jesus Christ the only way to heaven and how to you support a bishop who says that one can't make that statement?
quote:
is that we ought to live a life of mercy towards those around us.
Then how to you interpret the following verses:
Eph 2:8 - 9 (ESV) 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/9/2008 9:51:14 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
jesus is the way, the truth, and the life - trying to figure out how/why you could even think to ask such a question.
every bishop i know of, says these words:
quote:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
and i'm curious as to what "then how" means to you in your final question?
as if, there is some sort of contradiction between ephesians 2 and the gospels - is that what your suggesting? or maybe that the gospels are interpreted through paul, or your interpretation of paul?
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/9/2008 10:13:52 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
jesus is the way, the truth, and the life - trying to figure out how/why you could even think to ask such a question.
every bishop i know of, says these words:
see the quote I posted from Bishop Schori. She may cite the creeds but her words indicate she feels Jesus is not the only way to heaven.
You seemed to indicate that we earn salvation by our works of mercy. This is the reason for the quote from Eph. 2:8-9. Our works are an outflow of our relationship with Christ as we can do nothing to earn that relationship.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/9/2008 10:38:05 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
well, i suggest that if you have these questions about someone in particular, you try as hard as you can to ask the source. i certainly cannot answer for her.
i've made no indication that we earn our salvation by our works - that totally could not be read into my posts here.
what do you make of the articles?
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/9/2008 10:44:36 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
well, i suggest that if you have these questions about someone in particular, you try as hard as you can to ask the source. i certainly cannot answer for her.
I asked what YOU thought of her quote that to say Jesus is the only way to salvation is presuptous. This despite is being base doctrine in the Anglican church.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/9/2008 10:49:54 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
i've made no indication that we earn our salvation by our works - that totally could not be read into my posts here.
quote:
to answer the question: what must i do to inherit eternal life. the problem we face today, as was when this was first told, is that we often seek to justify ourselves and our rightstanding with god. and the point is, as was with this narrative, is that we ought to live a life of mercy towards those around us.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/10/2008 9:47:45 AM
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facedown
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colliefan
yes, you did ask me. and no matter the response, it does no good, does it?
again, little snippets don't provide a whole lot to comment on.
feel free to visit this page, and dig, or any other that has some more to it.
what's your take on the articles?
again, you miss the point of the narrative.
let's recap:
q- what must I do to inherit eternal life?
j - what do you understand?
q- love god, and love neighbor
j - excellent
q - who's my neighbor?
j - there was this guy who was half dead. a couple churchy folks saw him, and left him. then another, wholly despised, did more than what was required to help him out. which of these three was a neighbor?
q - the one who showed mercy
j - go and do likewise
now this imagry that jesus uses to answer an original question: what must i do to inherit eternal life, and it seems in this narrative, the answer is two part, or better yet, one element with two movments (kind of like our breathing). but the guy was hung up on the second movement (whose my neighbor). so jesus tells this awesome story to answer the question: who is my neighbor. but the final question by jesus isn't "so, who is your neighbor" - it was "who was the neighbor" - which of course by answering this one, one can deduce who my neighbor is. but the question puts us in the story as the one left half dead, we are the one who requires rescue - mercy - and a neighbor to aid us.
this is all imagry jesus uses to answer the question (well, one movement of the question): what must i do to inherit eternal life.
the problem is, again, that we often seek to justify ourselves. the point is that we ought to live a life of mercy.
so, this somehow, resonated with you that "salvation" is "works-based". i'm still not certain how you read this into that. if anything, what you should have read into it is: quite trying to justify yourself to your neighbor (because you - and I - are in need of saving, just as much as our neighbors), you, and I and everyone else is in need of mercy and humility. maybe even a recollection of an older saying: love mercy, do justly, and walk humbly with god.
you see the story isn't about "saving ourselves" - but it is about being rescued. the parable is often read as a "how-to" manual for AAA. but that's not the point - and i think i have certianly gone to some lengths to show that. we're not supposed to take the role as the one who rescues, but the one in need of being rescued - and walk away with a grateful heart that god rescues, and that folks out there great and wide are walking this path helping us - almost sacramentally in many respects.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/10/2008 3:03:41 PM
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colliefan
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facedown,
No matter how you dance around it, you proclaim that we are reconciled to God through our works of reconcilation rather than the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross and the acceptance that he took our deserved place.
I have asked you what you think of Shori's statement that Jesus Christ is not the only way to salvation. The bible is clear, no one can come to the Father except through the body and blood of Christ. You have not commented about her statement or if you, yourself, believe that Jesus is the only way.
One can cite the creeds every Sunday, but unless it is heartfelt, reciting the creeds is unselss.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/10/2008 3:13:31 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
no dancing here my friend. just a reference to the gospels, and the manner in which jesus answered (and questioned) those who sought to ask him very similiar questions. notice again: the point isn't about us saving ourselves, but that we (all of us) are in need of being saved.
i don't have much to comment on a few snippets - again.
beginning of post 128
yes, one can recite the creeds and it be useless. why? because words are not self-referential - all words. they all have suggestions, and meanings. and these meanings change, they are not absolute. that doens't suggest that at a particular moment in time one can change what the intention was, so it's our goal to figure that out - what was intended, not simply to inject our meanings into the words.
what's your take on the articles?
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/10/2008 6:31:43 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
what's your take on the articles?
If you mean the 39 Articles. With the ones that echo the creeds and the catechisms I concur. Some seem to deal with the way the church was structed under the monarchy so they are no longer valid. Disagree that some of the books listed are cannonical. Disagree with the principle of batismal regeration. While the topics in the list of homilies may be applicable, there is no need to recite them verbatim.
None of these effect the essential truth of the gospel.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/10/2008 6:50:12 PM
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facedown
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collifan
so, then you disagree with the following statement: Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God .
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/10/2008 7:06:13 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
collifan
so, then you disagree with the following statement: Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God .
Baptism is not salvific, but a sign of the renunciation of sin and a desire to follow Christ in a changed life. Mode sprinkle/dunk does not matter,
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/10/2008 9:09:28 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
the quote was from this page.
comments?
prophet
i've answered it as directly as i can - no dancing involved.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/10/2008 10:01:46 PM
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prophet
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Face D
Will homosexuals inherit the kingdom of God?
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/11/2008 6:21:29 AM
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facedown
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prophet
lol. willl "they"?
even though i've already answered this question previously, and even though it probably ought to be directed in another one-stop thread, i'll try to answer again:
folks often get hung up on looking at the particular sin of another. it's often done so, to justify oneself. "look at them" - keeps otherse (and oneself) from looking within (community or individual). and the message of jesus declares that we are all guilty - we all fall short - we all are in need of rescuing/healing/redemption/deliverance/salvation/etc. all of us.
so, it's kind of a pointless question to ask "will they..." - when what we ought to be asking is "how can i seek god's face today....how can i authentically live a life of mercy and humility today"...."how can i live a life of forgivness today"...."how can i remain strong in my desire to love god, and love my neighbor today"...?
colliefan
maybe the point is, sometimes folks in ones community don't always live up to or speak for the individual?
and this is an important part of this dialogue - community.
the community (in this case, the church) is composed of many - many parts. or to use some organic imagry - many branches. the little branch on the northwest side that doesn't get a lot of sun, and thus doesn't have as many leaves and isn't quite as large os the dominant one on the southeastern side has no obligation/right/etc to look at it in disdain, or to question itself simply because it's different. nor can the larger branch, when compared to the smaller unyieldy branch complain or try to distance itself from it when questioned "are you really somehow connected to this little branch?"
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/11/2008 4:12:13 PM
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colliefan
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quote:
maybe the point is, sometimes folks in ones community don't always live up to or speak for the individual?
and this is an important part of this dialogue - community.
But what happens, or should happen, if the one speaking up voices teachings/lifestyle contrary to scripture. One can't have community if there isn't a common doctrine that boils down to the essentials of the faith.
In terms of sin, we all fall short but we cannot make sin a practice,
1 John 3:4 - 6 (ESV) 4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 6:24:07 AM
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facedown
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prophet.
i wasn't certain if your post was even worth responding to.
so, seeing as i've already answered you a couple times - take it to the thread it belongs in.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 6:31:45 AM
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facedown
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colliefan
quote:
But what happens, or should happen, if the one speaking up voices teachings/lifestyle contrary to scripture. One can't have community if there isn't a common doctrine that boils down to the essentials of the faith.
some of this is understandable, but not all - can you maybe rephrase?
we all fall short, but cannot make it practice?
while i think i know what you mean - do you recognize the structure of that statement?
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 12:22:56 PM
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colliefan
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Facedown,
I have asked you several times about the teachings of Schorri and others within the EC-USA about their teachings that deviate from the orthdox teachings of scripture and the doctrine of the 39 Articles.
How can one have a common faith when the clear teaching of Scripture is that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to heaven yet others within the church say that teaching is too narrow. If they do not agree on this matter their faith is in no way common.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 12:25:19 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
prophet.
i wasn't certain if your post was even worth responding to.
so, seeing as i've already answered you a couple times - take it to the thread it belongs in.
given your lack of repponse we can assume you have taken what is the clear position of the EC-USA
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 12:50:13 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
and several times; i've answered. other times, i've requested more than an excerpt from an article.
you keep bringing up the 39 articles, as though they were the benchmark of orthodoxy - yet you yourself deviate from them, even as your community (anglican mission in america) does not. so, what's up?
it is your observation and interpretation that suggests (to you) such things as your final paragraph in post 148.
my lack of response (post 149)? are you kidding me? i've gone to some depth, without getting side-tracked in what belongs in a different thread to begin with, to respond. what is the "clear-position" anyways, btw? something from ecusa's website? some statement from the general convention?
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