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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 3:27:23 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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facedown,
I have linked to entire arcticles that depict the heresey that is Schori. My posts about the 39 Articles endorsing baptistmal regeneration was incorrect. In talking with my pastor yesterday, he said the offical position is opposed to regeneration and that baptism is a covenental ceremony that brings one into the community. It is not salvific.
quote:
what is the "clear-position" anyways, btw? something from ecusa's website? some statement from the general convention?
Yes. It is clear from the EC-USAs website that they endorse and accept the gay lifestyle and see other faiths as a pathway to God.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 4:38:42 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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from the EC-USA's web site
quote:
Inerrancy, Biblical
The belief that the Bible contains no errors, whether theological, moral, historical, or scientific. Sophisticated holders of this theory, however, stress that the biblical manuscripts as originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek were inerrant, but not those that are presently available. Some more conservative scholars are reluctant to speak of inerrancy, but choose to speak of biblical infallibility. They mean that the Bible is completely infallible in what it teaches about God and God's will for human salvation, but not necessarily in all its historical or scientific statements. Biblical inerrancy and infallibility are not accepted by the Episcopal Church
< Message edited by colliefan -- 8/12/2008 4:53:12 PM >
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 4:51:48 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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more from the UC-USAs web site
quote:
What is the religious significance of the interfaith education initiative?
As witnesses to Christ’s love, we approach interfaith relations and dialogue in commitment to our faith. At the heart of Christian belief is faith in the triune God. We affirm that God is creator and sustainer of all creation.
We have been called to witness in the world to God’s healing and reconciling work in Christ. We do this humbly, acknowledging that we are not fully aware of the ways in which God’s redeeming work will be brought to its completion. We now see, only dimly, as in a mirror, for we now know only in part and do not have the full knowledge of what God has in store for us (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12-13).
In dialogue and relationships with people of other faiths, we have come to recognize that the mystery of God’s salvation is not exhausted by our theological affirmations.
Salvation belongs to God:
We therefore dare not stand in judgment of others. While witnessing to our own faith, we seek to understand the way in which God intends to bring God’s purposes to their fulfillment.
We therefore feel able to assure our partners in dialogue that we are sincere and open in our wish to walk together towards the fullness of truth.
We therefore claim this hope with confidence, always prepared to give reason for it, as we struggle and work together with others in a world torn apart by rivalries and wars, social disparities and economic injustices.*
Therefore, interfaith education is necessary to understand the significance of our neighbors as a praying and believing people with spiritual histories of their own, and to understand the meaning of being a Christian. Within this context, what can we make of the experience of God to which other religions bear witness, and how does this understanding relate to our own experience of God in Christ?
Interfaith education is, thus, a learning process and also a journey into deeper explorations of our own faiths.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 5:13:37 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
yes, articles without much of anything - just a few snippets - which btw, i have asked for more to chew on.
it is clear from ecusa's website? what page specifically are you referring to?
goddess worship in ecusa? looks like that page links to a page that links to books, not something you try to make it out to be.
there's not a whole lot wrong with the quote - if you understand where it's coming from and where it's going. folks quite some time ago fought against the infalliblness of the pope, but in so doing, created a paper pope in the scriptures. in fact, it's really only noted in the last couple hundred years that we can see the language of inerrancy or infallibility - interesting....
but in the past few decades, this issue came into the spotlight - many adopted infallibility and rejected inerrancy, through a lot of debate many conservatives rallied behind the idea that if one suggests that the bible isn't inerrant, then anything can then be justifiable.
but the anglican church believes that god is the author of scripture under the inspiration of the holy spirit, written by followers of god. they teach the truth but that our faith isn't a "religion of the book" - but a "religion of the Word (Jesus)" - which isn't written, but the incarnate and living Word. christ thus makes the scriptures living through the holy spirit.
the episcopal church does, after all, read from and teach from the scriptures every time it gathers for worship. and uses these readings for manners of instruction, edification, and equipping - that is to say, that the bible is used to understand the ways of god and god's will for human salvation.
pax
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 5:38:41 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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quote:
the episcopal church does, after all, read from and teach from the scriptures every time it gathers for worship. and uses these readings for manners of instruction, edification, and equipping - that is to say, that the bible is used to understand the ways of god and god's will for human salvation.
The link I provided denies the authority of scripture. What more can I site. I have provided countless links to the herises in the EC-USA church. Due to copyright regulations I cannot provide the amount of material you ask.
The EC-USA seems to be little more than a repackaging of liberation theology. Their web-site clearly shows their embrace and endorsement of the homosexual lifestyle. The EC-USA denies that Christ is the only way to salvation. The fact the site had links to books about goddess worship is evidence they support that practice. One will find listings for books if one searches on the term "sophia." It is more than clear the EC-USA indeed an apostate church.
In regards to inerrancy
2 Tim 3:16 - 17 (ESV) 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God£ may be competent, equipped for every good work.
If God's word is falible and errant why should we trust it?
< Message edited by colliefan -- 8/12/2008 5:51:03 PM >
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 7:47:42 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
due to copyright regulations?
hmm....there is no copyright regulation that exists that would prevent you from providing links to source material.
"....their web-ste clearly shows their embrace and endorsement of the homosexual lifestyle..."
really? where
"...the ec-usa denies that christ is the only way to salvation..."
really? where
the fact that the site links to books about history is evidence they support the practice?
really? how insane is that observation?
the real question is: since the episcopal church(es) use the scriptures to teach, reproof, and correction, and training, that folks may be competent, equiped, etc - then how the heck can you make your observations?
you keep bringing up the 39 articles, as though they were the benchmark of orthodoxy - yet you yourself deviate from them, even as your community (anglican mission in america) does not. so, what's up?
_____________________________
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/12/2008 9:47:25 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
the fact that the site links to books about history is evidence they support the practice?
I said goddess worship
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/13/2008 8:01:59 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
those pages don't suggest what you seem to think they do.
you keep bringing up the 39 articles, as though they were the benchmark of orthodoxy - yet you yourself deviate from them, even as your community (anglican mission in america) does not. so, what's up?
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/13/2008 8:18:00 PM
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9drtr
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Colliefan,
you state that you do not consider canonical some of the books listed in Article VI as being canonical. Which ones?
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/13/2008 9:48:30 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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quote:
We have been called to witness in the world to God’s healing and reconciling work in Christ. We do this humbly, acknowledging that we are not fully aware of the ways in which God’s redeeming work will be brought to its completion. We now see, only dimly, as in a mirror, for we now know only in part and do not have the full knowledge of what God has in store for us (cf. 1 Cor. 13:12-13).
In dialogue and relationships with people of other faiths, we have come to recognize that the mystery of God’s salvation is not exhausted by our theological affirmations.
Salvation belongs to God:
We therefore dare not stand in judgment of others. While witnessing to our own faith, we seek to understand the way in which God intends to bring God’s purposes to their fulfillment. We therefore feel able to assure our partners in dialogue that we are sincere and open in our wish to walk together towards the fullness of truth.
how can we walk together towards truth when the other believes in a false religion? Let me ask you to prove that the EC-USA believes the only to heaven is through Jesus Christ alone.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 8/13/2008 10:15:31 PM >
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/13/2008 9:53:14 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
Colliefan,
you state that you do not consider canonical some of the books listed in Article VI as being canonical. Which ones?
It may be a matter of old terms for the major/minor prophets
The First Book of Esdras, Four Prophets the greater,
The Second Book of Esdras, Twelve Prophets the less.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/13/2008 9:58:08 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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quote:
yet you yourself deviate from them, even as your community (anglican mission in america) does not. so, what's up?
Some of the articles relate to the monarchy so they are no longer aplicable. I don't think that any church still uses the homilies. But in matters of orthodoxy we sre spot on. Unlike the EC-USA,
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/13/2008 10:00:45 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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quote:
Since 1974, Integrity has been a faithful witness of God's inclusive love to the Episcopal Church and the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community. We are working for the full inclusion of all the baptized in all the sacraments
sounds like a clear endorsement of a depraved lifestyle
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/14/2008 6:37:56 AM
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facedown
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colliefan
let me give you an example, of how to provide some really good context and the like for an observation/question.
in post 101, you noted "There is so much apostacy...it is difficult to fit it into a single post....No where on the site is the Thirty Nine Articles of the Anglican Faith...No wonder the EC USA is a apostate Church!"
And then you listed about 5 questions and answers from the chatechism. One can only assume that these are the "top of the list" of reasons for apostacy, since this is what you listed. Let's look at one of them:
quote:
Q: What is Holy Baptism?
A: Holy Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom o f God.
So, this answer to the question, is a reason for apostacy.
Later, in post 114, you noted that you go to a church that is part of the Anglican Mission in the America's. On a page about ttp://www.theamia.org/explore/glossary/#baptism]Baptism[/link], the AMIA says this, about baptism:
quote:
Baptism
Baptism is the sacrament by which God adopts us as his children and makes us members of Christ's Body, the Church, and inheritors of the kingdom of God .
On the same page, the AMIA says this:
quote:
Thirty-nine Articles of Religion
The 39 Articles of Religion are the essential beliefs of the Anglican Church established by Convocation of the Church in 1563
"Essential" means - something that is inherent, basic, required, indispensable, fundamental, etc. You yourself have used the 39 articles as a backdrop for essential beleifs.
Let's look at a few articles:
3. That christ descended into hell
6. Lists deutercannoncal books as "canonical books"
10. We have no free will to choose
16. Not every deadly sin committed after Baptism is sin against the Holy Ghost, and should therefore not be withhled repentance.
27. Baptism isn't just a sign
33. Those who have been excommunicated must be rejected as a heathen till they are openly reconciled by penance and received back into the chruch by a judge.
34. a) traditions and ceremonies may be changed, so that nothing be ordained against god's word (interesting, no?) b/ if you break a tradition or ceremony of the church that is not repugnant to the word of god, should be openly rebuked, and wounds the consciences of the weak brethren.
In summary:
You've noted in great detail how baptism was one of the core essentials for the apostacy in ECUSA.
However, your own communion holds the same view as does the 39 articles (and we haven't even opened up a prayer book yet!).
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/14/2008 2:36:03 PM
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Ps103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
Colliefan,
you state that you do not consider canonical some of the books listed in Article VI as being canonical. Which ones?
It may be a matter of old terms for the major/minor prophets
The First Book of Esdras, Four Prophets the greater,
The Second Book of Esdras, Twelve Prophets the less.
Just FYI, Collie, you are correct--it is just the naming.
1st Esdras is the "old name" for the book of Ezra.
2nd Esdras is the "old name" for the book of Nehemiah.
"Four prophets the greater" ["greater" in this sense means "longer"]= Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel.
"Twelve prophets the lesser [shorter]= Hosea, Amos, Micah, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Joel, Obadiah, Jonah, Nahum, Malachai and Habbakuk (I don't think I left one out, but I might have.)
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/14/2008 4:00:52 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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favedown,
Prove to me from EC-USA documentation that the church believes that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven, homosexuality is a deviant lifestyle, and that scripture is the sole authority by which we must measure our llives.
< Message edited by colliefan -- 8/14/2008 4:20:26 PM >
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/15/2008 6:25:47 AM
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facedown
Posts: 907
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colliefan
sure. and then take a look at this.
first off, anglicans don't say "that scripture is the sole authority by which we must measure our lives". singular authority is gods, and anglicans believe that scripture, tradition, and reason guide us in relation to said authority.
i'd reference any edition of the book of common prayer (and hymnal) to answer your question(s). this, more than any website, any serman, any lecture, any snippet from an interview is how one comes to know what we believe.
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-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/15/2008 8:44:12 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
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From: Raleigh, NC
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It takes a lack of reason to embrace a lifestyle condemed in Scipture. It takes a lack of reason to state there possibly can be more than one way to salvation than Jesus Christ. It takes a lack of reason of have books on goddess worship on the EC-USA website...............I could also insert the word "tradition" for "reason"because what has taken place in the EC-USA church over the past few decades is a break from two milenia of church tradition.
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/15/2008 10:13:10 PM
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facedown
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colliefan
*again* your observations are well and good - but very relative to your perspective.
please see above post for how to cite references, and to provide some "meat" to the dialogue
_____________________________
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/15/2008 10:19:42 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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we are not going to convince each other. I am out of here
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/15/2008 10:39:33 PM
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facedown
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pax
and by the way, not asking to convience you, or for you to convience me - just for something beyond an observation, or the fact that material is referenced (variety of books, etc).
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/16/2008 4:47:50 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1659
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Toronto the Good
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: 9drtr
Colliefan,
you state that you do not consider canonical some of the books listed in Article VI as being canonical. Which ones?
It may be a matter of old terms for the major/minor prophets
The First Book of Esdras, Four Prophets the greater,
The Second Book of Esdras, Twelve Prophets the less.
Just FYI, Collie, you are correct--it is just the naming.
1st Esdras is the "old name" for the book of Ezra.
2nd Esdras is the "old name" for the book of Nehemiah.
"Four prophets the greater" ["greater" in this sense means "longer"]= Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel.
"Twelve prophets the lesser [shorter]= Hosea, Amos, Micah, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Joel, Obadiah, Jonah, Nahum, Malachai and Habbakuk (I don't think I left one out, but I might have.)
And (in this case) Jeremiah includes Lamentations.
Yes, you got 'em all. But not in the right order, so you don't get a gold star.
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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RE: Anglican conservatives plan strategy - 8/16/2008 4:53:30 PM
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9drtr
Posts: 1659
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Toronto the Good
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
but very relative to your perspective.
colliefan, you were warned.
_____________________________
Edwin
When we know who is coming, how can we worry about what is coming? When the last hour belongs to us, how can we worry about the next minute?
Ross Crighton
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