RE: Exactly what is sin? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Exactly what is sin?


willful violation of a known law of God
  22% (31)
falling short of God's perfect mark
  23% (33)
violation of God's laws, whether known or not
  21% (30)
The sin nature is always with us
  14% (20)
the sin nature can be eradicated
  7% (10)
I don't sin, but sometimes I do make "Mistakes"
  0% (1)
Other
  10% (15)


Total Votes : 140
(last vote on : 11/9/2008 1:42:35 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/22/2008 11:18:34 PM)

quote:

Perhaps you misunderstood (most likely because I misspoke) when I said "redeemed". The simple fact of the matter is, we do not have perfect bodies here on this earth. They are tainted with sin. The same is true of our nature before we enter into God's salvation. The taint of sin is not removed from our bodies upon receiving salvation - if it were, then we would live forever in these bodies!
You appear to be confusing human nature with sinful/carnal nature. We do not have perfect bodies because we live under the Curse in a fallen world. This has nothing to do with salvation or sanctification since we continue to possess our treasure in jars of clay (2 Cor 4:7). The "taint of sin" is removed from our hearts when we are sanctified wholly by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

quote:

I am most certainly not suggesting that it is our physical bodies that are sinful, or that the physical is in any way "lesser" to the spiritual/metaphysical. Like I said, the flesh is not inherently wrong - it is the choices we make to pervert its neutral desires that are sinful. What I was trying to say was that, upon the resurrection of the dead when we all are raised with new, imperishable bodies, then that ability for our fleshly desires to be used for evil will vanish entirely.
Yes, I agree completely with this clarification. Thanks.

quote:

There seems to have been two false doctrines about sin being taught by these teachers. 1, that it was possible to be without sin in the Christian life (1 John 1:8)
You know, it never ceases to amaze me how sincere Christians can take one verse out of context and build an entire doctrine of a "sinning religion" upon it. If it is not possible to be without sin, then why did John say in 2:1 "so that you will not sin" and "if anybody does sin", instead of "when everybody does sin". Your exegesis is flawed, MrF.

quote:

But I would agree that the Christian life should (and possibly, can) not be characterized by habitual, unrepentant, and un-convicted (though that is difficult to tell from the outside) sin.
And possibly can? I will just take John's word for it in 3:6, 3:9, and 5:18. He appears to be a lot more confident of God's grace and power than you are, MrF!



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/23/2008 12:11:43 AM)

quote:

If it is not possible to be without sin, then why did John say in 2:1 "so that you will not sin" and "if anybody does sin", instead of "when everybody does sin". Your exegesis is flawed, MrF.


I never said it was not possible. I merely believe it highly unlikely, and not the normal experience for the Christian. If it were, then we would not see so many in the Church struggling with sin in their lives. We would not see Christians getting divorced, we would not see Pastors looking at porn, we would not see Christian youth dishonoring their parents, etc., etc.
Regardless, I fail to see how my exegesis is flawed. The two statements you quoted from 1 John are separated by a period. They are distinct thoughts. John is writing to encourage believers away from sin, since obviously, while God can certainly forgive us our sins, He would much rather us live holy, blameless lives. However, John knows that we will sin, so he also encourages us that if we do sin, there is still hope (further combating the idea that Christians need to live blameless lives to be Christians).

If Jesus expected us to live perfect lives, then why would He include "forgive us our trespasses" as part of His guide to prayer?

quote:

The "taint of sin" is removed from our hearts when we are sanctified wholly by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.


Our hearts, yes, absolutely - and for this reason, we can choose not to sin (though it is still possible for us to choose to sin, as well). But it is not removed from our bodies, because, again, if it were, we would live forever. We would, as you put it, be removed from under the Curse, despite being in a fallen world. That will not happen to our "jars of clay" until the resurrection and creation of the New Heaven and New Earth; when every aspect and result of sin will be removed from our experience entirely.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/23/2008 9:24:00 AM)

quote:

I merely believe it highly unlikely, and not the normal experience for the Christian.
So whose fault is it that so many Christians "struggle with sin in their lives"? If Christians normally experience grace and power, why are they still sinning all the time?

quote:

However, John knows that we will sin,
No, I would say MrF "knows" that we will sin. John (and the Holy Spirit) have a better plan! - 1 John 3:4-10

quote:

(further combating the idea that Christians need to live blameless lives to be Christians).
Pardon me, MrF, but how can you so easily dismiss three dozen verses which specifically encourage us to be blameless! Just start with Philippians 2:15 if you like.

quote:

If Jesus expected us to live perfect lives, then why would He include "forgive us our trespasses" as part of His guide to prayer?
So what does Jesus actually mean in Matt 5:48? Is He just setting us up for failure since He "expects us not to live perfect lives"?

quote:

But it is not removed from our bodies, because, again, if it were, we would live forever.
Once again, MrF, you are confusing human nature with carnal nature and treading very close to gnostic dualism. Please reconsider this faulty theology - 1 Thess 5:23-24.



bluestone -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/23/2008 9:29:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

I answer that with 1 John 3:8-10. The light of Christ is in us upon salvation. That does not mean a Christian ceases to sin. Those who say they are without sin are liars. John was not describing a sinless lifeI assume you mean 1 John 1:8-10. But please don't leave out verses 7 and 9 and 2:1. Taken in context, this passage clearly indicates that we are cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness so that we no longer have to sin. If it does not mean a Christian ceases to sin, then please explain 1 John 3:4-10 and I John 5:18. These are very simple verses, bluestone - anyone born of God does not keep on continually sinning!


It means that anyone born of God will not be a slave to habitual sin.

You are preaching a relative holiness. Getting a little bit of holiness at salvation, and the big bundle at a second crisis, then being free from sin? We can be tempted, even lose this sanctification along with salvation, according to the Wesleyan interpretation of Arminianism.

All you are doing is lowering Divine standards to that of humans. With it, you are lowering the definition of sin itself. You are elevating man in all his weakness . Merit achieved holiness is not a base I want to stand before God on. Christ’s imputed righteousness via his vicarious atonement and justification by faith is the more stable of the two.

Christian maturity and conviction will lower sin in a believer’s life. Eradication of sin on this Earth is not going to happen. Eradication of the sin nature would leave a person without the capacity to sin. That capacity stays with us. To say you don’t sin, based on what has happened it the past few minutes of your life is silly at least. If you are without sin, you won’t sin again on this Earth. I stand by my claim that this has not, nor will it happen to any human other than Christ.

We can mature, grow, and see sin lessen in our lives. We are not to be tied down to habitual sin. We are not to revel in sin. Yet, we will sin, at least on occasion. The sanctification process is not finished until we stand before heaven’s gates.

I am not advocating reveling in sin. Sin grieves God, and it should grieve us. Sin in a Believer's life should be a source of shame, not pride. This is why defining what sin is is so important. Our definition of sin will shape our theology.

Am I going to willfully break God's laws and commandments? No.
Am I going to break them on occasion in the heat of the moment, without first stopping and thinking: I better back up and not say or do this?" Yes. It will happen. This is as much sin as willfully plotting and planning it.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/23/2008 12:14:47 PM)

quote:

Am I going to willfully break God's laws and commandments? No.
Am I going to break them on occasion in the heat of the moment, without first stopping and thinking: I better back up and not say or do this?" Yes. It will happen. This is as much sin as willfully plotting and planning it.
Well bluestone, this is the basic crux of our disagreement. If you are not going to willfully break God's laws and commandments, then you do not sin. Whatever you mean by "on occasion in the heat of the moment" is NOT deliberate disobedience of the known Will of God. However, it certainly shows that all of us need to grow in grace and be sensitive to conviction and improvement when the Holy Spirit points out our human frailties, imperfections, and weaknesses. These are NOT "as much sin as willfully plotting and planning it" according to James 1:14-15.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/23/2008 12:53:24 PM)

On a very human level, one of the major problems I see with the doctrine which teaches that believers do not sin is that when the believer does sin, this doctrine makes it very difficult for the person to admit the sin and seek forgiveness. They put so much pressure on the believer to be perfect, to number the days, weeks, months, and years during which they have not sinned that the person becomes focused upon what they can achieve, not upon what Messiah achieved for them with His death and resurrection. This is a matter of pride.

But the other problem is what the Scriptures clearly state: that if we say that we have no sin, we lie, and the truth isn't in us. Otherwise, why should the blood of Messiah have to continue to cleanse us from those sins? Rather, we continue to confess our sins, so He is faithful and true to His word that He will cleanse us from all of our unrighteousness. So we keep His commandments, because anyone who claims to be a believer in Him but who does not keep the commandments is a liar. When we can do this as mature believers, doing what we have had opportunity to know and understand, then we know we are his. So we walk as He walked. And this is not some new commandment that John has written: it's the same commandments that were there from the beginning.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/23/2008 9:40:53 PM)

quote:

On a very human level, one of the major problems I see with the doctrine which teaches that believers do not sin is that when the believer does sin, this doctrine makes it very difficult for the person to admit the sin and seek forgiveness. They put so much pressure on the believer to be perfect, to number the days, weeks, months, and years during which they have not sinned that the person becomes focused upon what they can achieve, not upon what Messiah achieved for them with His death and resurrection. This is a matter of pride.
Which is precisely why holiness does not work "on a very human level"! Holiness is only and always by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. If "they" means a church or denominational doctrine that puts pressure on Believers to be perfect, then that church or doctrine is flat out wrong! Pride has no place in the heart of the entirely sanctified Christian.

quote:

But the other problem is what the Scriptures clearly state: that if we say that we have no sin, we lie, and the truth isn't in us.
No Abiyah, one verse in 1 John is taken out of context to be misunderstood as basis for a sinning religion. How do you interpret 1 John 3:6, 3:9, and 5:18? Do these Scriptures clearly state that true children of God do not persist in willful sin? I believe they do!

quote:

And this is not some new commandment that John has written: it's the same commandments that were there from the beginning.
Actually, it was Jesus who spoke the new command in John 13:34 - "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." This can and will only be accomplished through the perfect Love of Christ indwelling our hearts, souls, bodies, and minds!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/23/2008 10:41:35 PM)

Perhaps we can have a "conversation" re this subject this time. I remain interested, but I will quickly bow out, if I get any feeling whatsoever that the conversation is even leaning toward harassment or anything similar, whether or not anyone else sees it that way -- you included. I will not go there, Mark, because it makes me very uncomfortable.

Oh, and rest assured that you have never done the above to me or to anyone else that I have ever seen. I would ask you to please understand if I suddenly disappear, but I will not do that without explanation, and you will understand.

Bluntly, I am interested in the truth, so if we can look into this in peace, what the old church did and taught will not influence me, nor will what my synagogue teaches.

Also, please understand that I am not schooled in either church terminology or thought, so we will have to keep things on a very simple level.
_____________________________

I think, though, that we should take this elsewhere, in order to not take this thread off-course.

Go to http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_3553493/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm#3553497



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 1:43:22 AM)

quote:

So whose fault is it that so many Christians "struggle with sin in their lives"?


Fault? There's no fault in struggling. There's only fault into giving into that struggle.

quote:

If Christians normally experience grace and power, why are they still sinning all the time?


Because we choose to. The difference between us and nonbelievers is that we have that choice. They don't - they sin, and cannot do otherwise. With God, however, we have the option to do good, or to do evil.
How, specifically, would you define experiencing grace and power?

quote:

No, I would say MrF "knows" that we will sin. John (and the Holy Spirit) have a better plan! - 1 John 3:4-10


I think you are misapplying those verses. Notice how often John talks about "continuing" in sin, or "keeps on," or "practices." John is not addressing individual sins in the Christian life. Rather, I feel he is addressing the person who claims to be a Christian yet shows absolutely no fruit to back up their claim. As James teaches, a "faith" without works is dead. In the same way, a "faith" with no movement away from the ways of sin, John seems to be saying, is dead.
And that is the "faith" that the false, protognostic teachers were advocating - a false teaching that ignored the wrongs we do in the body, because the body is inherently separate from the spiritual.

quote:

Pardon me, MrF, but how can you so easily dismiss three dozen verses which specifically encourage us to be blameless! Just start with Philippians 2:15 if you like.


I think the key word there is encourages. Obviously, is a Christian isn't striving for perfection, then they have their aim in the wrong place. However, just because someone aims to be perfect does not mean they will reach it.
Can you honestly say you follow and obey every command in Scripture?

quote:

So what does Jesus actually mean in Matt 5:48? Is He just setting us up for failure since He "expects us not to live perfect lives"?


1, you ignored my question.
2, He was giving a goal to strive for. Without an encouragement to strive for perfect, it would be easy for Christians to be happy with mediocrity.

quote:

Once again, MrF, you are confusing human nature with carnal nature and treading very close to gnostic dualism. Please reconsider this faulty theology - 1 Thess 5:23-24.


What, in your opinion, is the "old self" that was done away with when we were given a "new self" when we receive salvation?



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 9:06:30 AM)

quote:

Fault? There's no fault in struggling.
Struggling is having life more abundant? Struggling is living victoriously over sin? Struggling is overcoming the world? I guess that's not the way my faith works, MrF!

quote:

How, specifically, would you define experiencing grace and power?
By having life more abundant, by living victoriously over sin, by overcoming the world!

quote:

I think you are misapplying those verses.
Just as I think you are misapplying 1 John 1:8.

quote:

I think the key word there is encourages.
So you're saying God encourages holiness but really doesn't expect any of us to be holy? Do you realize how that makes God look?

quote:

Can you honestly say you follow and obey every command in Scripture?
By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I do not sin.

quote:

1, you ignored my question.
Please define "trespass".

quote:

Without an encouragement to strive for perfect, it would be easy for Christians to be happy with mediocrity.
It would appear many Christians are already "happy with mediocrity" since they claim to sin every day with no real hope for change until God takes them away from this messy place. If Jesus commands perfection in this life, then Jesus has the ability to make us perfect!

quote:

What, in your opinion, is the "old self" that was done away with when we were given a "new self" when we receive salvation?
Do you have a verse or two that states the "old self" is "done away with" at the time of salvation?



bluestone -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 11:18:59 AM)

I would like to hear someone explain sinning everyday in word, thought, and deed.

Sounds like a lot of hard work.[;)]



SinnerSaved -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 11:50:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I would like to hear someone explain sinning everyday in word, thought, and deed.

Sounds like a lot of hard work.[;)]


I believe that sin is anything which separates us from God. Most sins are common to us all of course - murder, forniction, adultery, greed, pride, covetousness etc etc. However, I believe that some sins are not common. For example, I do not believe that drinking alcohol is a sin, and therefore I do not feel as though taking a glass of wine with my meal is separating me from Him. If, on the other hand, you do believe that drinking alcohol is a sin, then you are clearly and knowingly rebelling (sinning) if you partake.



bluestone -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 12:29:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SinnerSaved


I believe that sin is anything which separates us from God. Most sins are common to us all of course - murder, forniction, adultery, greed, pride, covetousness etc etc. However, I believe that some sins are not common. For example, I do not believe that drinking alcohol is a sin, and therefore I do not feel as though taking a glass of wine with my meal is separating me from Him. If, on the other hand, you do believe that drinking alcohol is a sin, then you are clearly and knowingly rebelling (sinning) if you partake.


I agree with that. To violate a personal conviction God h ad placed on your heart is just as sinful as breaking the ten commandments.



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 2:04:46 PM)

quote:

Struggling is having life more abundant? Struggling is living victoriously over sin? Struggling is overcoming the world? I guess that's not the way my faith works, MrF!


If you don't struggle, how can you grow?
There's nothing wrong with struggling with sin. There's nothing wrong with temptation. The only problem comes when we give in to that temptation, and sin. 1 Corinthians 10:13.

quote:

Just as I think you are misapplying 1 John 1:8.


Well, how do you apply this verse?

quote:

So you're saying God encourages holiness but really doesn't expect any of us to be holy? Do you realize how that makes God look?


Like our Father and daddy. Just as our earthly fathers set high standards for us in order to help us grow, but still love us if we don't live up to them (ideally. I know some earthly fathers fail abundantly in one or both parts of that), so our Heavenly Father sets the perfect standard for us, equips us to possibly live up to us, but continues to love and encourage us even when we fall short.

quote:

By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I do not sin.


Well, I have never met you, and do not know you, so that will have to remain between you and God.

quote:

Please define "trespass".


Sin.

quote:

It would appear many Christians are already "happy with mediocrity" since they claim to sin every day with no real hope for change until God takes them away from this messy place.


Not at all. There is very real change possible. There's just a continuing struggle. Trials. And through those trials, we grow stronger.

quote:

If Jesus commands perfection in this life, then Jesus has the ability to make us perfect!


Absolutely. When have I said otherwise? But Jesus does not take remove our ability to choose, and so we sometimes choose to live imperfectly.

quote:

Do you have a verse or two that states the "old self" is "done away with" at the time of salvation?


2 Corinthians 5:17.
Romans 6:6.
Colossians 3:9.
I'll do you one better and give ya' three. ; )



(incidentally, I'm having significant trouble posting this. If it appears as a double post, my apologies)



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 3:24:38 PM)

quote:

If you don't struggle, how can you grow?
There's nothing wrong with struggling with sin
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this issue, MrF.

quote:

There's nothing wrong with temptation. The only problem comes when we give in to that temptation, and sin. 1 Corinthians 10:13.
True, but temptation is NOT "strugging with sin". Temptation is the opportunity to struggle with sin. Why struggle with sin? James 4:7 makes it perfectly clear - submit to the Lord and resist sin, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. No struggling is needed!

quote:

quote:

Just as I think you are misapplying 1 John 1:8.

Well, how do you apply this verse?
Verse 8 is a parallelism with verse 10, just as verses 7 and 9 are parallelisms. They restate the truth of Romans 3:23. They do not negate God's doctrine of holiness.

quote:

quote:

Please define "trespass".

Sin.
Well, that's not how the Greek lexicon defines the word "trespass" from the original Greek word opheilema in Matt 6:12 or the Greek word paraptoma in Matt 6:15. "Sin" is the usual translation of hamartia, which is not the word used by Jesus in the Lord's Prayer. So I'm not really sure how asking for forgiveness of daily trespasses has any bearing on His expectation for us to be perfect in Christian love.

quote:

There's just a continuing struggle. Trials. And through those trials, we grow stronger.
Once again, you appear to be confusing continued struggles with sin for trials and temptations. James 1:2-3 says that trials and testing develop perservance, not that "through continuing struggle with sin we grow stronger". Big difference, MrF!

quote:

2 Corinthians 5:17.
Romans 6:6.
Colossians 3:9
No reference to "old self" in 2 Cor. Romans 6 states that the "old man" is crucified when we are baptized into Christ. This does not specifically indicate the timing to be initial salvation. Indeed, many theologians consider this a proof text for entire sanctification as a second work of grace. Now, your final reference in Col 3 is the only one that could be used to support "the old self done away with at salvation". I prefer to understand this as I accept Romans 6:6 - when we are entirely sanctified, the Holy Spirit cleanses us from our sinful natures and empowers us to live victoriously over willful sinning.



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 3:47:12 PM)

quote:

willful sinning.


Are you implying there is unwillful sin?

quote:

True, but temptation is NOT "strugging with sin".


Perhaps we have a different idea of "struggling with sin." What is your definition of the concept?

quote:

Verse 8 is a parallelism with verse 10, just as verses 7 and 9 are parallelisms. They restate the truth of Romans 3:23. They do not negate God's doctrine of holiness.


But it says if anyone claims they are without sin, not were. It is in the present tense, unlike Romans 3:23, which is in the aorist. The parallelism you suggest seems to imply a denial of sin, both past and present, as being false.

quote:

Well, that's not how the Greek lexicon defines the word "trespass" from the original Greek word opheilema in Matt 6:12 or the Greek word paraptoma in Matt 6:15.


That depends on which lexicon you're using. The one I looked at did have sin as one of the definitions.

quote:

"Sin" is the usual translation of hamartia, which is not the word used by Jesus in the Lord's Prayer. So I'm not really sure how asking for forgiveness of daily trespasses has any bearing on His expectation for us to be perfect in Christian love.


Are you suggesting that just because a different word is used, the idea of sin cannot be present?
What are trespasses, if not sins? How can someone claim to be perfect if trespasses are still being committed in their lives?

quote:

James 1:2-3 says that trials and testing develop perservance, not that "through continuing struggle with sin we grow stronger".


And the word "trial" there is the same as is what Jesus uses in the Lord's prayer for "temptation." When we face trials, we have a choice - either we make the right choice, and our faith grows stronger. Or we make the wrong choice, and it doesn't.

quote:

No reference to "old self" in 2 Cor.


Not in so many words, but the old is gone, and the new is come. I would say that addresses the same issue.

quote:

Romans 6 states that the "old man" is crucified when we are baptized into Christ. This does not specifically indicate the timing to be initial salvation. Indeed, many theologians consider this a proof text for entire sanctification as a second work of grace.


Well, I would disagree with those many theologians. I feel that to take this passage as talking about some "second work of grace" would, in doing so, make that "second work" required for salvation, since verse five says only those who are baptized in that way have any guarantee of taking part in the resurrection.



bluestone -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 3:58:54 PM)

DRMARK:
Could you list some of the theologians? I can think of Grider, Wyncoop, and Dunn who take that stance. (Ones I have read personally)



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 4:26:44 PM)

quote:

Are you implying there is unwillful sin?
Some may call these "sins of ignorance". I prefer Wesley's definition of sin, properly so called.

quote:

What is your definition of the concept?
There is no struggle when I submit and resist. I cannot speak for others.

quote:

It is in the present tense, unlike Romans 3:23, which is in the aorist.
I'm sorry but I'm not very expert in Greek verb tenses. Is 1 John 1:10 also in the aorist tense? Any other verse in Scripture that specifically states we must always live in sin?

quote:

Well, I would disagree with those many theologians. I feel that to take this passage as talking about some "second work of grace" would, in doing so, make that "second work" required for salvation,
I knew you would disagree. There are some theologians who do consider the "second work" required for salvation. I tend to disagree with that stance myself.

quote:

I can think of Grider, Wyncoop, and Dunn who take that stance. (Ones I have read personally)
Then you seem well read of theologians who represent current Holiness doctrine as generally discussed by the largest Holiness denomination. I have nothing further to add (except that Ms. Wynkoop spells her name with a "k".)



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 8:41:50 PM)

quote:

Some may call these "sins of ignorance". I prefer Wesley's definition of sin, properly so called.


What types of sins are these? Do you commit them?

quote:

Is 1 John 1:10 also in the aorist tense?


It's actually in the perfect tense - something which happened in the past, with abiding results.

quote:

Any other verse in Scripture that specifically states we must always live in sin?


I'm not saying we must live with sin - I'm just saying that it is not the norm for Christians to be perfect in this earth, and nothing in Scripture, to me, indicates that a Christian will be free from sin in this life.

quote:

There are some theologians who do consider the "second work" required for salvation. I tend to disagree with that stance myself.


Good, otherwise we'd have to move from a friendly discussion over a disagreement to a very serious problem.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/24/2008 11:04:47 PM)

quote:

What types of sins are these? Do you commit them?
How would I know if they are unintentional "sins" of ignorance?

quote:

I'm not saying we must live with sin
Then according to your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 as present tense, you would be deceiving yourself. Unless that verse is not applicable to everyone.

quote:

I'm just saying that it is not the norm for Christians to be perfect in this earth
Then why did Jesus command such a thing in Matt 5:48? Does He want us to be abnormal Christians?

quote:

nothing in Scripture, to me, indicates that a Christian will be free from sin in this life.
What does it mean to you, MrF, to "be free from sin in this life"?



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/25/2008 12:04:08 AM)

quote:

How would I know if they are unintentional "sins" of ignorance?


If you don't know what they are, then how can you bring them up? Also, how can you claim to be perfect if you don't know whether or not you are committing these sins?

quote:

Then according to your interpretation of 1 John 1:8 as present tense, you would be deceiving yourself. Unless that verse is not applicable to everyone.


Fair enough. I didn't think through my statements correctly. However, I would like to say that, while sin is present in our lives, God does not hold us guilty for them. He will discipline us when we get into sin, though, which raises another question for you - if it says in Hebrews that God disciplines those whom He loves, what is He disciplining us for if we can be perfect?

quote:

Then why did Jesus command such a thing in Matt 5:48? Does He want us to be abnormal Christians?


Do you hate, literally hate, your family? Your mother, father, etc.?

quote:

What does it mean to you, MrF, to "be free from sin in this life"?


To not only avoid every evil deed, though and word, but also fulfill every single good work to the fullest of all possibility.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/25/2008 8:35:06 AM)

quote:

If you don't know what they are, then how can you bring them up?
I know what they are - I don't know if I've committed them at the time. Other Christians believe that unintentional sins are possible. Do you?

quote:

However, I would like to say that, while sin is present in our lives, God does not hold us guilty for them.
You have used the singular "sin" then referred to the plural "sins". This is a huge distinction, MrF. Please clarify.

quote:

if it says in Hebrews that God disciplines those whom He loves, what is He disciplining us for if we can be perfect?
Actually, the question is for you - what do you mean by perfect. I do not define "perfect" the same way you define "free from sin in this life".

quote:

Do you hate, literally hate, your family? Your mother, father, etc.?
So you wish to use one instance of hyperbole as a figure of speech by Jesus to negate a literal doctrine found dozens of times in the NT? Is that sound hermeneutics?

quote:

To not only avoid every evil deed, though and word, but also fulfill every single good work to the fullest of all possibility.
This definition is performance-based only and I fully agree it is unachievable in this life. However, as I mentioned above, Christian perfection, holiness, entire sanctification, however you want to label it, is NOT performance-based. It is attitude-based so that the heart fully submitted to the Love of Christ will avoid every evil deed and fulfill every good work. Thus, that person does not sin, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.



MrFribbles -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/25/2008 11:27:01 AM)

quote:

Other Christians believe that unintentional sins are possible. Do you?


It's an interesting question, and one I honestly haven't given enough thought to. I would say, off the top of my head (which is a dangerous place indeed!), that it would be unlikely for a Christian to unintentionally commit a sin, since it is against our nature to sin.

quote:

Actually, the question is for you - what do you mean by perfect.


I mean, free from sin entirely in this life, which involves all the things I mentioned above. If someone is submitting to God and allowing Him to make them not sin, then what cause would He have to discipline them?

quote:

You have used the singular "sin" then referred to the plural "sins". This is a huge distinction, MrF. Please clarify.


So I do not respond on a misunderstanding, could you clarify this huge distinction?

quote:

So you wish to use one instance of hyperbole as a figure of speech by Jesus to negate a literal doctrine found dozens of times in the NT? Is that sound hermeneutics?


Well, if I had done that, then no, that would not be a sound hermeneutic at all. However, as I do not see Christian perfection being taught dozens of times in the NT, I feel safe in making my comparison.

quote:

This definition is performance-based only and I fully agree it is unachievable in this life. However, as I mentioned above, Christian perfection, holiness, entire sanctification, however you want to label it, is NOT performance-based. It is attitude-based so that the heart fully submitted to the Love of Christ will avoid every evil deed and fulfill every good work. Thus, that person does not sin, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.


So, it still is performance-based; it's just that God is the one doing the performing through us.
Do you avoid every evil deed and fulfill every good work?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/25/2008 1:18:47 PM)

Perhaps the better term for "unintentional sins" would be "sins of ignorance." All sin is willful, but not all sins are known to the one who commits them. I had used the term "unintentional sins" in a post some weeks ago and mark questioned whether or not such sins existed.

When I was in the old church, they drew a distinction of "sin" and "sins," saying, if I remember correctly, that the singular represented the general sins of people, while the singular represented any collection of individual sins. Some years ago, I did a quick study regarding this and did not come to the same conclusion. It would be interesting to do it again.



drmark -> RE: Exactly what is sin? (6/26/2008 9:14:54 AM)

quote:

it would be unlikely for a Christian to unintentionally commit a sin, since it is against our nature to sin.
This makes little sense since going "against our nature" requires intent, which is not present with unintentional sinning.

quote:

quote:

what do you mean by perfect.
I mean, free from sin entirely in this life
Then I understand why you do not take "Be ye perfect as I am perfect" literally! No one will be "free from sin entirely in this life". That is not the Wesleyan/Holiness understanding of Christian perfection.

quote:

If someone is submitting to God and allowing Him to make them not sin, then what cause would He have to discipline them?
Summission is a daily requirement (Luke 9:23). For some it is a moment-by-moment requirement!

quote:

So I do not respond on a misunderstanding, could you clarify this huge distinction?
Singular sins generally refer to the sinful nature. Plural sins generally refer to specific acts of disobedience.

quote:

Do you avoid every evil deed and fulfill every good work?
Already answered - by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit, I do not sin.

quote:

I do not see Christian perfection being taught dozens of times in the NT
Based on your (faulty) definition above, it is not taught in the NT!

quote:

Perhaps the better term for "unintentional sins" would be "sins of ignorance." All sin is willful, but not all sins are known to the one who commits them.
I still do not see how someone can willfully sin if they do not know they are committing sin. Please explain this.



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