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RE: Worship Wars - 7/10/2008 11:04:05 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3640
Joined: 6/8/2005
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Ah, the worm farm. I know that many farmers have failed in the last few years, but for one to have to admit failing at worm farming is, well, uh -- you know.
That's great about your new church! Is this a permanent change, or do you know yet?
_____________________________
Where I attend, all the songs are new to most who first come, and I remember how that felt. In fact, when I first started attending, I skipped the songs and only came for the teachings. Once I started attending fully, though, not knowing the songs became a non-issue, even though many of them were not in English, because the service and the congregation were more than the songs, and I was just grateful for being there. Now, I occasionally help out in the 4-person "worship team."
In the church where I work, however, there is constant contention regarding the songs, and the pastor is constantly walking a tightrope about them.
I have actually narrowed down the worship wars where I work. I wonder if this might be true in other churches as well:
The people who complain want the church to sing only the songs that were popular during the decade when they first came to the L-rd. Is this true elsewhere?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/10/2008 11:26:34 AM
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ezri
Posts: 2904
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow, Point B, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
In the church where I work, however, there is constant contention regarding the songs, and the pastor is constantly walking a tightrope about them.
I have actually narrowed down the worship wars where I work. I wonder if this might be true in other churches as well:
The people who complain want the church to sing only the songs that were popular during the decade when they first came to the L-rd. Is this true elsewhere?
Possibly- I can see where that would be the case at ABC (old church) I have no idea how it works in XYZ church as we did not have a song service last night. They do bible study, from what yesterdays lesson looked like the pastor was adding some cheese and meat to the Sunday milk and crackers and this Wednesday they had a congregational prayer time that went "long" nothing wrong with chatting with the Father longer than planned. 
as for XYZ being permanent, I dunno. We have only been once. It was nice being welcomed- ALMOST overwhelming the number of folks that came up to us before and after the service.
~e
_____________________________
*only* 8,985,600,000,000,000 Nanoseconds til I get to touch him again---
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/10/2008 1:26:05 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4098
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Abiyah - did you ever get to hear that clip?
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/10/2008 1:34:50 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3640
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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No. I tried again early this morning, and the computer froze again. I started to write to you but backed off, because I have no idea why. I can play everything else, as far as I know, but not that! Also, I know nothing about downloads of music, because I never have bought music online.
Is your CD messianic or charismatic?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship Wars - 7/13/2008 11:31:46 PM
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Boulderwriter2000
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Joined: 9/20/2007
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I have been reading the thread and I think that a more important problem in the American evangelical church is why does worship now mean music. If we came to view the Sunday Service in its entirity as worship the style of music would be a lot less important. When I read Romans 12 that sacrifice is worship it makes dividing over music style seem a little petty. Any time I feel the tendency to get bent out of shape about an issue other than the Truth of Scripture I turn to Psalm 133.
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RE: Worship Wars - 8/4/2008 6:31:54 PM
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Randal
Posts: 4
Joined: 1/19/2008
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I admit that I do not have time to read all of the posts on this subject, but have some questions non the less.
What is worship?
What is it supposed to be for?
What are your expectations when approaching worship?
My hope in approaching the Lord in worship is to first still myself and quiet my mind so that I can focus on Him. Secondly my hope is that in worshipping Him who is the Lord of Glory that He will visit and commune with me via His Holy Spirit. For those who do not believe in the presence of, and outworking of the presence of the Holy Spirit than this will obviously not be a consideration for you, and you are truly missing everything. When the patriarchs worshipped God met with them and further imparted, and confirmed His word to, and covenant with them. This was usually sporadic and revolved around the sacrifices which they offered to the Lord. Now that the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ has occured (the only sacrifice for sin) and we are called to become a living sacrifice unto the Lord, worship is to be a daily occurance, Sunday worship is like icing on the cake where we all corporately can benefit from the moving of the Lord through His Holy Spirit in and among us all. This is my hope, my expectation when I come to church to worship.
The problem is that for so many churches this is farthest from their minds. They treasure the fine instrumentation of the music, pride themselves on being a fine musician and what was meant to be an opportunity to exault and glorify Him who is The Lord we instead worship ourselves and turn it into a concert. Instead of ushering in an environment of peace where the Lord can speak and be heard by those in attendance, it turns into a crash bang clang experience of teeth gritting proportions. How can the Lord who is orderly, gentle and full of peace move in such noise? Many times room is not given in between these "performances" for the Lord to even get a word in edgewise in prophecy, word of knowledge etc.
Many times we treat the whole service as a show, an event, something where we put on a great performance and hope that He is pleased, although we are never quite sure because we do not shutup long enough to listen and hear Him who is the Lord of the Church. We enter the building in disorder, arguing with the wife and kids about something trivial that occured on our way to church. We enter the sanctuary loudly laughing, joking carrying on about our week, the weather, whatever and wait for the time the curtain is raised and we expect to be wowed and amused. Whatever happened to reverencing the Lord Our God, and coming before Him respectully and entering His Sanctuary with honor and respect? Whatever happened to sincere people in prayer and intercession before the service praying that God might hear our cry and Heal our land. We complain about how bad the world is, how the world needs to be put right, this will not happen until we ourselves put our own house in order by rebuilding the altar as Elijah did after the false prophets of Baal had their way with all manner of fleshly displays of stink, until we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God and cry out in repentance for our casual way of assembling before Him and expecting Him to respond to our way of worship rather than inquiring from Him and His word as to how He expects to be worshipped.
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RE: Worship Wars - 8/7/2008 1:56:39 AM
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debi89
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I Found this to be an interesting topic as I have been playing the piano for church since I was 13.
The Church that I grew up in was Southern Baptist and we sang hymns 99% of the time. Some of my most favorite songs are hymns that were written 100's of years ago. However, we got a new pastor and he started wanting to sing more praise and worship tunes, ( which I was totally fine with), and some of the members did not appreciate it. This was a small part of what caused the church to finally close.
Now I am a member of the EFree church in my town and am on the worship team as well. We do contemporary songs AND hymns. We also have the whole setup, piano, keyboard, guitars and drums. We don't always use all the instruments depending on what kind of song it is , we have even sang a couple of songs acapella!!!!
Our worship team leader constantly reminds us that we are not performing for the congregation, but for God and God alone. We were given these gifts BY Him to SERVE Him!
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RE: Worship Wars - 8/8/2008 12:30:05 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3640
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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Welcome to the new members! 
Debi reminded me of my transition from the old church to where I now worship.
With reason, I don't have a lot of kind words for the old church organization, but they had great music programs, and the music was the big thing, next to the sermon. Some of the churches in the organization had really nice orchestras and great singing and instrumental groups. There were definitely some parts of the services that were performance-oriented, but using a lot of expression was frowned upon, except with the instruments -- then, it was fine, as long as the performer didn't move around. Performing there was very stiff. I learned to stick my face in the mic and keep it there.
But when I started attending where I do now, it was so different, with regard to "performing." There is no performing. Period. They just don't do that during services. I also no longer sing solos; we have none, unless I am joining in a casual concert. We have no groups singing either, unless it is a concert. Even when I join the "worship team" (for want of a better term, I guess), we face away from the congregation, toward the words on the screen.
I love it. Everything is about G-d. Everything is about public worship, altogether. I don't miss singing solo or in groups, except I would love any chance to sing with family members, just because I enjoyed the sound.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship Wars - 9/14/2008 1:11:23 AM
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worshipleader3
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I have had the priviledge of serving in several different areas, and in a couple of different churches in the past few years.
My home church is in a very fast growing area in both residents and a vacation/resort area. We started an early worship service about 10 years ago, initially to provide an alternative to worshippers so that they can have the rest of the day to enjoy our beautiful area. After doing this service for a couple of years, we decided to start a praise team to also offer a different style of worship for those who choose to attend.
They have also been consistent in allowing the praise team to lead worship atleast 1 Sunday a month in both services. Also, whenever the church has done a series of sermons and church wide growth campaigns, we have had a carbon copy of the service in both worship services. A theme song, blended styles of music, same specials, everything exactly the same in both services. It is something that has worked for this church.
I also had the priviledge of serving for 1 1/2 years as youth/children's pastor at another church. This was just a small, country church that had a passion for reaching lost souls and seeing some growth. The pastor, myself and 4 other individuals started a praise band and began starting worship service about 10 minutes early to eliminate some of the slack time between Sunday School and worship. Let's just put it this way, the pastor was asked and I supported him, to step down from church leadership as a result of this and a couple of other things.
Some churches will embrace these changes, some won't. I heard from a very reputable source in praise band leadership that roughly 50% of churches are growing, 50% are either dormant or dying. Of the 50% percent that are dormant or dying, roughly 50% of those are strictly traditional, 50% are hard-core contemporary. The 50% that are growing are conducting blended services. Therefore having something for everyone.
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RE: Worship Wars - 9/14/2008 9:09:17 PM
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daughter_of_faith
Posts: 1265
Joined: 1/10/2008
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Yeah, we've switched churches as we moved 1500 miles away from our previous church. It's pretty traditional and there are several "newer" (and younger) people who would like to see more of a blend (at a minimum!). So far progress is SLOW though.
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RE: Worship Wars - 10/23/2008 11:18:13 AM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
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You know, I can see this from both sides. People should be able to worship in a way that expresses who they are. There are a couple of ways of accomplishing this. One would be to split the songs between both groups. Our church does four songs in every service. Why not have 2 traditional songs, and two modern songs. This give you the ability to maintain the traditional, and to bring new songs into the fray.
Now I know that there are some traditionalists out there who would object to this. To them, I say shame, shame. Same thing for anyone who only advocates the new songs. Shame, shame. The body of Christ has one spirit, and God loves all music when it worships Him. If you are so rigorous that you are unwilling to compromise, then I question how spirit filled that you are living. Tradionalists should be open to new things, and modernists should be willing to retain some tradition.
If it continues to be a problem, then the other solution would be to hold 2 or 3 services. One for each group. I myself would attend a service that offered the mixture, because I see the value in both types of music. You could hold one for those who are like me, hold one for those who are strict traditionalists, and one service for modern advocates.
The sad part of these factions is that we are all one body, and we are all baptised by one spirit. The fact that we argue about such things is a sad state for the body of Christ to be in. There should be no divisions within the church, especially within the same church, but between denominations either. Christ was willing to meet us where we are, not where we should be or ought to be, but where we are. We should understand differences between us as being a part of eveyone is different, and it reflects on the way they worship the Lord. When we become to rigorous, it defines a heart that has been hardened to His spirit, in my opinion. God loves variety. He must, because we continue to do new things in worship. But I'm sure that He enjoys the traditional as well. The worship we bring is more than the words that we sing, it is the attitude of our heart towards worship. That line reminds me of the Casting Crowns song.
Lord the worship we bring is more tthan songs that we sing,
it's a reflection of our ever changing lives;
the best that we have to offer.
We don't just lift up our hands, Lord we lift up our lives;
for we know that you are worthy of our praise.
To you our lifesongs rage.
Should that not be the reflection of our attitudes in our worship?
< Message edited by bravjim -- 10/23/2008 11:26:51 AM >
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Worship Wars - 10/23/2008 11:28:56 AM
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bravjim
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You should have done a little dance. You have the right to worship in any way you please. We worship for God's pleasure, and it pleases Him to see us put our heart into it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ezri
I wanted to do a little dance myself BUT being front row center in the choir(no choir screen so nothing to hide dancing feet behind) I figured it was probably not such a good idea.
*grinz*
we have been in this church since this august. The one we left had the LOL's that'd get up and leave if the music wasn't a dirge... then come by and rake the pastor that evening after they raked the music minister. 
Service this morning... It was refreshing.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Worship Wars - 10/23/2008 11:54:04 AM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
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Hi Randal; and welcome to the forums.
I see that you had some questions that nobody bothered to answer. I thought I would respond, because you seem to be new here. Worship is the way that we express ourselves to God and includes everything that we do for Him. Whether it being in songs, prayer, bible study, contemplating Him and His word and living our life for Him, it essentially boils down to how we respond to Him. Many may say it is limited to singing and dancing, but that is not quite true, at least as far as I am concerned. The expectations are that you can respond to God in a way that expresses who you are.
As you go further into your post, you refer to the way that you responded to the Spirit of the Lord. First of all, the word commands us to worship in spirit and in truth. So if anyone is doing it any other way, I'm not sure God is paying any attention to them. I will go a little further to say that you should probably find yourself a new church. What you are describing is not a church that is alive with the Spirit. It is a problem in some of today's churches. If you feel uneasy, then it's not just you who is uneasy about that church, but the Holy Spirit. You are experiencing His dissatisfaction with what is going on in that church. Look for a church where you feel at ease, because that will be the church that pleases Him, and where He wants you to attend. You will be glad you did. Church is supposed to be just as you describe it. Find one that is more in tune with what the Holy Spirit is telling you. It is supposed to be people gathering together to hear from God and react to God corporately.
However, don't go in search of the perfect church, because it doesn't exist. The church is made up of sinners like me and you. Let the Spirit lead you as you seek out a church. He will confirm for you if you belong there or not. Good luck and God bless you.
In Sincerest love
James
quote:
ORIGINAL: Randal
I admit that I do not have time to read all of the posts on this subject, but have some questions non the less.
What is worship?
What is it supposed to be for?
What are your expectations when approaching worship?
My hope in approaching the Lord in worship is to first still myself and quiet my mind so that I can focus on Him. Secondly my hope is that in worshipping Him who is the Lord of Glory that He will visit and commune with me via His Holy Spirit. For those who do not believe in the presence of, and outworking of the presence of the Holy Spirit than this will obviously not be a consideration for you, and you are truly missing everything. When the patriarchs worshipped God met with them and further imparted, and confirmed His word to, and covenant with them. This was usually sporadic and revolved around the sacrifices which they offered to the Lord. Now that the Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ has occured (the only sacrifice for sin) and we are called to become a living sacrifice unto the Lord, worship is to be a daily occurance, Sunday worship is like icing on the cake where we all corporately can benefit from the moving of the Lord through His Holy Spirit in and among us all. This is my hope, my expectation when I come to church to worship.
The problem is that for so many churches this is farthest from their minds. They treasure the fine instrumentation of the music, pride themselves on being a fine musician and what was meant to be an opportunity to exault and glorify Him who is The Lord we instead worship ourselves and turn it into a concert. Instead of ushering in an environment of peace where the Lord can speak and be heard by those in attendance, it turns into a crash bang clang experience of teeth gritting proportions. How can the Lord who is orderly, gentle and full of peace move in such noise? Many times room is not given in between these "performances" for the Lord to even get a word in edgewise in prophecy, word of knowledge etc.
Many times we treat the whole service as a show, an event, something where we put on a great performance and hope that He is pleased, although we are never quite sure because we do not shutup long enough to listen and hear Him who is the Lord of the Church. We enter the building in disorder, arguing with the wife and kids about something trivial that occured on our way to church. We enter the sanctuary loudly laughing, joking carrying on about our week, the weather, whatever and wait for the time the curtain is raised and we expect to be wowed and amused. Whatever happened to reverencing the Lord Our God, and coming before Him respectully and entering His Sanctuary with honor and respect? Whatever happened to sincere people in prayer and intercession before the service praying that God might hear our cry and Heal our land. We complain about how bad the world is, how the world needs to be put right, this will not happen until we ourselves put our own house in order by rebuilding the altar as Elijah did after the false prophets of Baal had their way with all manner of fleshly displays of stink, until we humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God and cry out in repentance for our casual way of assembling before Him and expecting Him to respond to our way of worship rather than inquiring from Him and His word as to how He expects to be worshipped.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Worship Wars - 10/23/2008 12:04:00 PM
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bravjim
Posts: 395
Joined: 10/8/2008
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Boulderwriter:
First of all welcome to the forums. It is wonderful to have you here. I have to agree with what you are saying. I just did another post concerning this as well. Worship is how we react to God, and is more than just music. It is prayer, bible study, listeningly attentive to sermons, and walking with God too. The worship God loves the most is when we live our lives for His glory. That is genuine worship right there buddy, yeah. It is a shame that it is not reflected in some churches today. I do like these forums because talking about stuff like this is also a part of worhip, as we connect with others and concerns that they have. I hope that you will stick around, and get to know some of your brothers and sisters in here. God bless you for your comment and concern.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Boulderwriter2000
I have been reading the thread and I think that a more important problem in the American evangelical church is why does worship now mean music. If we came to view the Sunday Service in its entirity as worship the style of music would be a lot less important. When I read Romans 12 that sacrifice is worship it makes dividing over music style seem a little petty. Any time I feel the tendency to get bent out of shape about an issue other than the Truth of Scripture I turn to Psalm 133.
_____________________________
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Worship Wars - 10/23/2008 4:23:24 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3640
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
...there are a couple dozen old people that will walk out and stand in the lobby when our worship is led by our younger fill-in leader. They claim that the worship is "too loud" when he leads it, but he has zero to do with the volume. The audio engineer (soon to be me) keeps the volume at the same level for every service, no matter who is leading worship. So yeah, they're being silly and it kind of makes me mad.
I don't believe their excuse. I think they are going out, hoping someone of like disorder will also go out, so they can stand about and complain and feel hollier-than-thou. Ridiculous excuse -- that the music is too loud. The only way it is too loud is if yhey use a hearing device, and in that case, just turn it down and stop acting like a spoiled child. It's an act, and it's not funny. It is also unacceptable.
When their solo part comes up in the heavenly choir in the hereafter, perhaps Messiah should get up and walk out, then talk to the angels about their style, their lyrics, and how music just isn't like it used to be when he was a boy in the synagogue. In fact, perhaps I will suggest that to Him.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Worship Wars - 10/23/2008 5:46:41 PM
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pryze
Posts: 39
Joined: 10/22/2008
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wow I never heard of anything like that...guess I should thank god for the Foursquare congregation i am a part of now
_____________________________
visit my blog at...
www.youngpryze.blogspot.com
Grace and Peace
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