RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (Full Version)

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JimboFletch -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 12:17:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls
Israel, I would move there in a New York Minute! Passports, $1600 per person.

I've been to Israel. It's an interesting place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there, even if passports were free.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 1:48:10 PM)

quote:

Israel, I would move there in a New York Minute! Passports, $1600 per person.


Well, while I would love to visit Israel and I hope to with my family, I appreciate living in a country where I do not have to worry about my children's school or my local market place or a city bus being blown up by someone with a backpack bomb. [&:] I also much prefer a voluntary military over mandatory service.

quote:

I don't think anyone's saying other countries are better. I think she's saying all the countries aren't all that different when it comes to morality.


I don't know. That looked like a pretty thorough "Evil America" list to me. [&:]



bluestone -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 2:03:58 PM)

I think Chris Matthews made a good point.



tracydolls -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 2:21:32 PM)

quote:

Well, while I would love to visit Israel and I hope to with my family, I appreciate living in a country where I do not have to worry about my children's school or my local market place or a city bus being blown up by someone with a backpack bomb. I also much prefer a voluntary military over mandatory service.



What's the difference in that and worrying about random killing, or a drug dealer shooting your child in their yard. Or in the case of MN, a rapist. Or a gangbanger mistaking your child's new pink shirt for a gang color.

Or if you try to move like me to a 'burb, racists spray painting your house and breaking out windows, calling you n***** and throwing full cans of beer at your 4yr. old calling her a N** b***.


I could go on and on.

quote:

I don't know. That looked like a pretty thorough "Evil America" list to me



Where is there a lie?



thorkraki -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 2:26:47 PM)

As a non-American, may I enter this discussion?

It is normal, and usually good, for people to be proud of their country, and to think that it is the best one. We do the same with our families, no?

I am Danish, and am proud to be Danish. We Danes are proud of our nation, our symbols like our beloved Queen and Royal Family (the oldest in Europe, and second oldest in the world after Japan-Queen Margrethe II is in direct line father to son (or daughter) from the Viking king Grom the Old, over a thousand years ago!). We are proud of our heritage of exploration, trade, and industry. My wife is Italian, and is proud of Italy's great heritage in art, music, and literature.

Does the USA have faults? Of course, it is made of human beings! Americans can be proud that people all over the world (not all, but many) look to the USA as a symbol of liberty and freedom.

Regarding some historical points that have been made here about the behavior of past rulers or nations: Voltaire said that, when examining the lives of people from the past, remember that their vices are often the vices of the age, while their virtues were their own. Did Calvin, Luther, Erasmus, and Loyola all hold grossly antisemitic opinions about the Jewish people? Yes! Nearly everyone in the sixteenth century did. Does this necessarily invalidate anything else they said? Not automatically; that would require examination within the context they were speaking.

This is not to say that we should not examine the flaws of the past. But we should consider them within their historical context. For example, even the most modestly dressed woman in an American or European church these days would have been fined, and maybe imprisoned, in the sixteenth century for her clothes (it was generally illegal to show the ankle, shin, or elbow, or to have uncovered hair unless you were a virgin).

Thor



blessedinnyc -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 2:33:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

I don't know. That looked like a pretty thorough "Evil America" list to me. [&:]

It appears that Tracy has the right and the basis to at least bring up factual statements about our country's history. If you think these facts indicate that America is an evil country, then perhaps you should rethink your patriotism. Most Americans accept them and believe that on the balance, we're still better than most countries.



rnershigh -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 5:13:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

I feel sorry for this country and it's people. Especially the Christians!~

Why do ya'll consider it bitterness or anger to TELL THE TRUTH?

Don't worry about him. He seems very bitter about your supposed bitterness, but that's another story.

quote:

I'm not saying other countries are better. Are you kidding me?

This is a flawed world and as Christians we should be able to tell the truth about it.

Well, I think it's ok for people to be proud of their country. The US is a very special place; it's rare to find a country that respects civil liberties the way the US does.

It's all right to smile to yourself and say, "Yeah right. This is a broken country, too," but I don't think we necessarily have to rain on other peoples' nationalist parades- at least until they start calling people anti-American.


Actually, "HE" is really a "SHE".
Oh and thanks for being so helpful in pointing out where I stand emotionally regarding tracydolls.
I could care less what tracy dolls thinks.
I don't remember my post implying I'm bitter, I felt pity not bitterness.[8|]

No one is saying the U.S. is perfect.
This is a flawed country filled with flawed people.
But like I said before, we got it GOOD here compared to other countries out there and so I wholeheartedly believe that the U.S. is the best country to be living in at this time.

And yes, it is bitterness or self-hate, to believe the worst of your country before the good.
I am not dismissing the flaws about the U.S., but to exaggerate them so to make it seem the U.S. is nothing but a bad country filled with only bad people is well, bitter thinking IMO.



galadriel2 -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 5:42:19 PM)

Well, blessedinnyc, thanks so much for your response - but - I don't think you have studied the Puritans very much. You need to read Thomas Manton and Jonathan Edwards, Richard Sibbs, study how they lived, etc. - not what you pick up that the secular elite teaches about them. The Puritans and especially their forefathers - the Protestant Reformers - were the ones being burned at the stakes and being ostracized, etc..

By Christian, I mean Christian in practice and thought - that they actually match the Biblical definition of what a Christian thinks and does - not a country that claims to be Christian and does whatever it wants to.

God bless all abundantly,
Galadriel2

As far as various religions getting along - that is Christian. It comes from the Sermon on the Mount and from 2 Timothy 2:24-26, for one - we are to be patient and kind towards those who oppose us.



galadriel2 -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 5:52:21 PM)

Thanks, everyone again for all the responses. In response to fiat_lux - it seems to me you are correct on this to a certain extent. We have gone to Colonial Williamsburg on vacation and setting is suppose to be in the year is 1774. You were taxed with a special tax if you didn't go to church back then. Also, James Madison was concerned about the persecution of Quakers and this added motivation to his seeking religious freedom so diligently in his legal documents that he created. There were definitely imperfections galour, but I think my basic assumption is correct - America was founded by Puritans who sought the freedom to worship Christ how they pleased - in freedom of conscience. That, it seems to me, is what they were after.

God bless all,
Galadriel2



galadriel2 -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 5:54:09 PM)

As far as the really great preacher John Calvin - wouldn't he be considered more of a Protestant Reformer rather than a Puritan?

God bless all,
Galadriel2



galadriel2 -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 6:03:34 PM)

Tracydolls - you bring up a lot of true and negative and very sinful things about America. I am ashamed of the sin we are involved in and/or have been - but it doesn't cancel out some of the tremendous good. Did you know that Jonathan Edwards (a revival preacher of the 1700s) had his extended family kidnapped by Indians and taken to Canada - yet he in the latter part of his life he was a missionary to Native Americans. One of his good friends, David Brainerd, died of tuberculosis (they called it 'consumption' back then) trying to get Native Americans saved. David Brainerd died at Jonathan Edwards' home and Jonathan Edwards' daughter (the one who cared for Brainerd) contracted tuberculous and died as well. If you only want to look at the bad - that is all you will see - but America has some of the greatest Christians God ever cranked out in her history and involved in her founding.

God bless you and all abundantly,
Galadriel2



ljmac -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/24/2008 11:57:15 PM)

I'm proud that America overthrew the Taliban and brought democracy to Afghanistan. Girls are allowed to go to school. Al queda has been routed. Theives get to keep their hands.

I'm proud that al queda is seriously maimed and is a mere shadow of its former self. Their leader, his lieutanants all killed, hides burrowed like an insect larva.

I'm proud that Saddam Hussein has been disposed of and that Iraq is a democracy. The rape rooms are closed. So are the children's prisons. Citizens get to vote and it isn't just for the guy with a sword on your throat.

I'm proud that Mohmmar Qadaffi dropped his WMD programs hours after seeing Americans dig Hussein out of the ground like a worm.

I'm proud that when catastrophe strikes anywhere, America is the place where people look to for help. America is the leader in fighting diseases like AIDS and malaria, and devastation from natural disasters like tidal waves and hurricanes.

I'm proud of the way America responded to Katrina. The residents of New Orleans and other coastal areas received days notice to evacuate. Despite the stupidity of some people, our Coast Guard risked their lives to rescue them. The federal government was there even before the storm left.

I'm proud we're the world leader in the fight against Islamic terrorism.



tracydolls -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 2:05:58 AM)

quote:

America was founded by Puritans who sought the freedom to worship Christ how they pleased




THE Puritans DID NOT settle US first.

From Wiki:
The London Company (also called the Charter of the Virginia Company of London) was an English joint stock company established by royal charter by James I of England on April 10, 1606 with the purpose of establishing colonial settlements in North America. It was not founded as a joint stock company, but became one under the 1609 charter. It was one of two such companies, along with the Plymouth Company, that was granted an identical charter as part of the Virginia Company. The London Company was responsible for establishing the Jamestown Settlement, the first permanent English settlement in the present United States in 1607, and in the process of sending additional supplies, inadvertently settled The Somers Isles (present day Bermuda), the oldest-remaining English colony, in 1609.


Early in the 17th century some Puritan groups separated from the Church of England. Among these were the Pilgrims, who in 1620 founded Plymouth Colony.


http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/puritani.htm

This country was started for money, trade, etc. Now the Puritans came later.



sue244 -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 2:23:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

I'm proud that America overthrew the Taliban and brought democracy to Afghanistan. Girls are allowed to go to school. Al queda has been routed. Theives get to keep their hands.

I'm proud that al queda is seriously maimed and is a mere shadow of its former self. Their leader, his lieutanants all killed, hides burrowed like an insect larva.

I'm proud that Saddam Hussein has been disposed of and that Iraq is a democracy. The rape rooms are closed. So are the children's prisons. Citizens get to vote and it isn't just for the guy with a sword on your throat.

I'm proud that Mohmmar Qadaffi dropped his WMD programs hours after seeing Americans dig Hussein out of the ground like a worm.

I'm proud that when catastrophe strikes anywhere, America is the place where people look to for help. America is the leader in fighting diseases like AIDS and malaria, and devastation from natural disasters like tidal waves and hurricanes.

I'm proud of the way America responded to Katrina. The residents of New Orleans and other coastal areas received days notice to evacuate. Despite the stupidity of some people, our Coast Guard risked their lives to rescue them. The federal government was there even before the storm left.

I'm proud we're the world leader in the fight against Islamic terrorism.

I second this post.



HisFish -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 10:01:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sue244

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

I'm proud that America overthrew the Taliban and brought democracy to Afghanistan. Girls are allowed to go to school. Al queda has been routed. Theives get to keep their hands.

I'm proud that al queda is seriously maimed and is a mere shadow of its former self. Their leader, his lieutanants all killed, hides burrowed like an insect larva.

I'm proud that Saddam Hussein has been disposed of and that Iraq is a democracy. The rape rooms are closed. So are the children's prisons. Citizens get to vote and it isn't just for the guy with a sword on your throat.

I'm proud that Mohmmar Qadaffi dropped his WMD programs hours after seeing Americans dig Hussein out of the ground like a worm.

I'm proud that when catastrophe strikes anywhere, America is the place where people look to for help. America is the leader in fighting diseases like AIDS and malaria, and devastation from natural disasters like tidal waves and hurricanes.

I'm proud of the way America responded to Katrina. The residents of New Orleans and other coastal areas received days notice to evacuate. Despite the stupidity of some people, our Coast Guard risked their lives to rescue them. The federal government was there even before the storm left.

I'm proud we're the world leader in the fight against Islamic terrorism.

I second this post.

yup, me too.



HisFish -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 10:17:16 AM)

quote:

This country was started for money, trade, etc. Now the Puritans came later.

Sorry, though they started a colony (which failed by the way) for commercial enterprise and to claim land for the queen, they did not start a "country" as you say. The vision to start a nation seperate from England came from those pilgrims escaping religious persecution and it was their ideals that were carried forward, A fact that catches in the throats of revisionists.



TorchHeart -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 10:52:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: galadriel2

I was watching a wee bit of the Chris Matthews Show on Sunday and he was 'opinionating' that we can be proud of America because two political rivals sat as good friends together at the funeral of Tim Russert - that we can express opposing views without fear of animosity - this is what makes us proud, what makes America great. I think I somewhat disagree with Chris on this one. What makes me love America and be proud of her is why she was founded - though we have drifted very far from this in most areas of our society by now. We were founded by a group of people who had come out of centuries of religious persecution. They were seeking to establish a country - a Beulah land - if you will - where God in Christ could be worshiped and served freely according to the dictates of one's own conscience. This is what is so unique about America and what is/was so great about her. We are losing this, of course, now, but I still love America for what she still has some remnants of and what she was founded for.

God bless all,
Galadriel2


With the exception of the fact taht we're not losing our religous freedoms, I LOVE this post. Great job!



TorchHeart -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 11:01:53 AM)

I'm proud that this is a country were people of ALL FAITHS AND BELIEFS, including George Carlin, Bill Hicks, Marin Luther King, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XIV, John Dobson, Jerry Falwell, The Dahli Llama, and many, many more can express their beliefs OPENLY without fear of persecution from the government or radical individuals who would do them harm for speaking what they believe.



tracydolls -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 11:09:14 AM)

quote:

Sorry, though they started a colony (which failed by the way) for commercial enterprise and to claim land for the queen, they did not start a "country" as you say. The vision to start a nation seperate from England came from those pilgrims escaping religious persecution and it was their ideals that were carried forward, A fact that catches in the throats of revisionists.


Well then practically every site, info, school, etc LIES to fit your history.

So Jamestown was not the FIRST settlement?

Wow. Who can I call to correct this huge mistake. The history books?



tracydolls -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 11:12:25 AM)

quote:

I'm proud that this is a country were people of ALL FAITHS AND BELIEFS, including George Carlin, Bill Hicks, Marin Luther King, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XIV, John Dobson, Jerry Falwell, The Dahli Llama, and many, many more can express their beliefs OPENLY without fear of persecution from the government or radical individuals who would do them harm for speaking what they believe.


Your kidding right? Martin Luther King was killed for his beliefs, the Gov't put him in jail many times, crazy people blew up CHURCHES and Children to keep MLK from getting anywhere.

First we have to get some simple history under our belts before we can be PROUD.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 11:17:32 AM)

quote:

Most Americans accept them and believe that on the balance, we're still better than most countries.


That was my point. Her list was not balanced.



HisFish -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 11:17:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

quote:

Sorry, though they started a colony (which failed by the way) for commercial enterprise and to claim land for the queen, they did not start a "country" as you say. The vision to start a nation seperate from England came from those pilgrims escaping religious persecution and it was their ideals that were carried forward, A fact that catches in the throats of revisionists.


Well then practically every site, info, school, etc LIES to fit your history.

So Jamestown was not the FIRST settlement?

Wow. Who can I call to correct this huge mistake. The history books?

Where in my post did i even say that?. You give false witness to what i write. You also appear to distrust the history books, then where do you get your facts?.



HisFish -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 11:19:52 AM)

quote:

First we have to get some simple history under our belts before we can be PROUD.

You dont trust the history books, where then do we get our history?



tracydolls -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 11:33:07 AM)

quote:

quote:

First we have to get some simple history under our belts before we can be PROUD.

His Fish said:
You dont trust the history books, where then do we get our history?


I trust that MLK did die and the Church in Birmingham was blown up.

You can read his books. Strength to Love. etc.

You said here that the colony failed. The books say James town was the first PERMANANT settlement and it was almost 15 years before the Pilgrims came!

quote:

Sorry, though they started a colony (which failed by the way) for commercial enterprise and to claim land for the queen, they did not start a "country" as you say. The vision to start a nation seperate from England came from those pilgrims escaping religious persecution and it was their ideals that were carried forward, A fact that catches in the throats of revisionists.



I recommend your read RED, WHITE and Black by Gary B. Nash, a Native American Writer. He does a very through and well researched history of the first colonies and what Tribes were there. Did you know the first time after Thanksgiving when the Pilgrims attacked the Natives,
they did it because they said a Native stole a cup from them? He shows you where the Pilgrims actually wrote this. I believe that stuff is in the National Archives. Geneaology and history are 2 of my favorite subjects. [;)]



HisFish -> RE: Why Is America Something to be Proud Of? (6/25/2008 11:41:25 AM)

quote:

You said here that the colony failed. The books say James town was the first PERMANANT settlement and it was almost 15 years before the Pilgrims came!


Sorry again, it was not the first.

Raleigh's First Colony, 1585-86
The next spring, Raleigh sent a colony of 108 persons to Roanoke Island. The expedition, commanded by Raleigh's cousin, Sir Richard Grenville, sailed from Plymouth, England, on April 9, 1585, in seven ships, the largest of which was of 140 tons' burthen. Included in the group of ship captains and colonists were Philip Amadas and Simon Ferdinando of the expedition of the previous year; Thomas Cavendish, then on his first great voyage but destined to be the third circumnavigator of the globe; Grenville's half-brother, John Arundell, and brother-in-law, John Stukeley; and other Raleigh cousins and connections, among them Richard Gilbert, a Courtenay, a Prideaux, Ralph Lane, and Anthony Rowse, a friend of Drake's. There were an artist, or illustrator, John White; a scientist, named Thomas Hariot; and, among the humbler folk, an Irishman, Darby Glande or Glaven. The two Indians, Wanchese and Manteo, returned to America on this voyage.
As i stated before it failed after some time. Again, those at Jamestown did not found a nation, it was the pilgrims who founded it as such, and no matter how much you despise this country can change that.



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