Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (Full Version)

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raspberry331 -> Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/23/2008 9:25:09 PM)

http://www.local6.com/news/16686602/detail.html



Orlando regulations restrict the amount of people that can be fed in city parks, effectively banning a group from large public feedings more than twice a year. What do you think about this? I think that it's a stupid regulation. There is no reason that anyone should go hungry in this country.



colliefan -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/23/2008 9:54:59 PM)

It may seem heartless, but it is a good idea. The homeless can go to the organizations that are prepared to help them leave the streets. For those who are willing to abide by the rules of the organizations, they need to leave town. The bible tells us if a man is able to work, yet is unwilling to do so, he shouldn't eat,



HisFish -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/23/2008 10:08:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

It may seem heartless, but it is a good idea. The homeless can go to the organizations that are prepared to help them leave the streets. For those who are willing to abide by the rules of the organizations, they need to leave town. The bible tells us if a man is able to work, yet is unwilling to do so, he shouldn't eat,

Great point Collie.



tracydolls -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/23/2008 10:10:05 PM)

What about homeless children?



Sophie11 -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/23/2008 10:17:05 PM)

The article never said these homeless people could not be fed, it only said there were restrictions on feeding them in public parks. Anyone who wants to help these people still can.



fiat_lux -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 2:17:03 AM)

quote:

It may seem heartless, but it is a good idea. The homeless can go to the organizations that are prepared to help them leave the streets. For those who are willing to abide by the rules of the organizations, they need to leave town. The bible tells us if a man is able to work, yet is unwilling to do so, he shouldn't eat,

I'm fairly certain that this is stretching the Biblical verse in question beyond what is intended. There are an enormous number of teachings in both testaments concerning charitable treatment of the poor. In this case I would say I can completely understand if someone feels their call to serve the poor trumps municipal law.

If you can't use the public parks for public gatherings I'm not sure what other space you could use. Streets? Hardly.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 9:11:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colliefan

It may seem heartless, but it is a good idea. The homeless can go to the organizations that are prepared to help them leave the streets. For those who are willing to abide by the rules of the organizations, they need to leave town. The bible tells us if a man is able to work, yet is unwilling to do so, he shouldn't eat,

Not all of these people can work. Some are confined to wheelchairs, others have been a little mixed up ever since they survived Vietnam.

Few people are homeless by choice, and most people who are homeless would probably prefer to be able to work their way out of the situation. The fact that many of them are homeless in a country with a 5% unemployment rate suggests that maybe they are incapable of work.



Sophie11 -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 9:31:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fiat_lux

quote:

It may seem heartless, but it is a good idea. The homeless can go to the organizations that are prepared to help them leave the streets. For those who are willing to abide by the rules of the organizations, they need to leave town. The bible tells us if a man is able to work, yet is unwilling to do so, he shouldn't eat,

I'm fairly certain that this is stretching the Biblical verse in question beyond what is intended. There are an enormous number of teachings in both testaments concerning charitable treatment of the poor. In this case I would say I can completely understand if someone feels their call to serve the poor trumps municipal law.

If you can't use the public parks for public gatherings I'm not sure what other space you could use. Streets? Hardly.



I know it would be harder to help these homeless folks without the parks, but it could still be done. You may not be able to have large public gatherings, but you could still help by feeding small groups at a time.



rcjames -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 10:53:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Not all of these people can work. Some are confined to wheelchairs, others have been a little mixed up ever since they survived Vietnam.

Few people are homeless by choice, and most people who are homeless would probably prefer to be able to work their way out of the situation. The fact that many of them are homeless in a country with a 5% unemployment rate suggests that maybe they are incapable of work.


Gee, you forgot to mention the 90% plus drug addition rate.


Thanks
RC



blessedinnyc -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 11:08:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Gee, you forgot to mention the 90% plus drug addition rate.


Thanks
RC

So therefore, if you're dumb enough to get addicted to drugs, the Christian response is to let you starve because you are unwilling to work.



StephK -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 11:22:00 AM)

It isn't restricting the feeding of the homeless just where it takes place. I'm sure a lot of the issue has to do with health department issues.



PaleHawkWoman -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 1:02:13 PM)

An increasing number of homeless DO work but do not earn enough to get off the streets. Rental rates in many cities is well beyond the ability of those making minimum wage to afford. Plus many landlords require credit checks. If you are homeless because you got in over your head on one of those subprime loans and were forclosed on, your credit rating will keep you from passing any such requirement.

And an increasing number of the homeless are not poor, either. Some are lower middle-class, now. Families have long been a good-sized portion of the homeless, altho they tend to not be permanently homeless.
A trend has been for two or more families to pool their money together and rent whatever apartment or house they can find and afford-usually 2-3 bedrooms/1-2 baths, and then work, eat, and sleep in shifts.

Disabled people are being carted from small towns to larger ones and are being dumped out in the street by the social services agencies of those small towns because their care is deemed too costly. We have a recent case of this here in Tennessee, and no official in the small town will talk to the news or answer the state about it. The elderly, disabled lady to whom this happened doesn't know why they did this to her. Oh,and her social securityand disability checks were at last count still going to the county nursing home she was dumped from because they claim she's still there. TBI is said to be looking into it.

There's also a lot of teens who have aged out of the foster care system who are homeless. They often have little or no education, no job skills, have not been taught the basics of how to take care of themselves,and don't know where to go or what to do. It's hard to get a job without a GED or diploma, and harder still if you have no address. There's a program called Covenant House which provides these teens with essential services and a place to live, but they're not available in every city or region yet. Since this is a private, not-for-profit ministry,this could be an opportunity for several churches to take up a much-needed outreach.

More later.



Zhi -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 1:10:00 PM)

Hmm. This is very unfortunate.

I understand why the city might want to do that, but it's imperative that organizations be allowed to help the homeless.

Perhaps the city should be required to provide an alternative venue for feeding the homeless, if they don't want them in a particular park.



colliefan -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 1:22:57 PM)

quote:


So therefore, if you're dumb enough to get addicted to drugs, the Christian response is to let you starve because you are unwilling to work.


No, the Christian resposnse is we will help you get off drugs. But you must stop playing the victim since you are a victor in Christ. But if you are unwillling to do the hard work of moving to recovery you will not have a place to live or something to eat.

2 Thess 3:7 - 10 (ESV) For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

Liberals love the victim mode. It gives them a purpose in life. If there were no victims, we wouldn't have the Nanny State. The truth hurts but is also heals.



colliefan -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 1:25:21 PM)

quote:

I understand why the city might want to do that, but it's imperative that organizations be allowed to help the homeless.


Most of the organizations that help the homeless, detest groups such as these b/c in the long run, it doesn't force someone to seek help for the issues that have put them on the street.



Zhi -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 1:30:55 PM)

Well, every time I have worked with an organization to feed the homeless, it was merely one of the things they offered... getting them in for a meal was the first step in talking to them about what we offered to assist them in improving their lives. You have to find the open door to help a lot of times, and they have to know that there are people out there who do care, and who are ready to help them get out of their current destructive cycle, whether it's due to drugs, financial problems, or mental issues.

"Free food" draws the crowds, whether you're trying to sell them timeshares in a condo or a brand new lease on life.



raspberry331 -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 2:08:57 PM)

PaleHawkWoman,thank-you for posting. I agree wtih you that many of them work,but do not earn enought to get off the streets.It's really hard out there in this day and age. Anyone of us could be homeless in today's world. Once a month,our church goes to Philadelphia to feed the homeless. We give the Word of God and then feed them and hand out clothes. We do it right out on the street.Thankfully,the mayor of Philadelphia is concerned about these men and women.



bluestone -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 2:15:33 PM)

The move is on in many areas to keep panhandlers out of public parks. They literally took over a park and a hiking trail in my town. You could not get out of your car without getting asked for money, or getting mugged. They were camping there, urinating in public, and making the park and trail look like a trash dump.

Citizens complain, and the law enforces mandates to keep people from living in parks. If you still feed them there, they congregate and the problem starts again.

The solution is for feedings to take place at the shelters or soup kitchens.

Public parks are paid for with tax dollars from tax paying people. The tax payers want the urban campers out, so be it.



StephK -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 2:24:36 PM)

We have a community sponsored kitchen that has been a great ministry for providing meals and a point of contact for community services available to meet whatever needs there are. It's primarily a coalition of churches but it also includes other organizations. No one is turned away ever. That was one of the stipulations for the charter.



tracydolls -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 2:50:37 PM)

Man, that one verse in 2 Thess 3:7. is so over used. It does not cover the 100's of verses that say help.

Paul is talking to who in that verse. And no one EVER posts the before and after verses. NEVER, you know why it would discredit their arguement!



blessedinnyc -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 2:55:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

The move is on in many areas to keep panhandlers out of public parks. They literally took over a park and a hiking trail in my town. You could not get out of your car without getting asked for money, or getting mugged. They were camping there, urinating in public, and making the park and trail look like a trash dump.

Then your city needs to hire more police. Discriminating against people on the basis of where they live isn't the solution. Besides that, people can still live in the park and get food elsewhere.

One solution that my city had was that the park closed to everyone at sunset. This prevented people from living there.

quote:

Public parks are paid for with tax dollars from tax paying people. The tax payers want the urban campers out, so be it.

There are ways to do it that don't involve having your city make national headlines.

In any case, I think the perfect solution is to find someone with some vacant land near the park and do the feedings there. This should keep the city council thwarted for quite a while as they figure out how to distinguish between "feedings", restaurants, and barbeques.



fiat_lux -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 3:02:30 PM)

quote:

2 Thess 3:7 - 10 (ESV) For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat.

This has very little to do with what we're talking about here. That's about Christians deliberately mooching off the common purse, not about people in actual need of assistance. And if you want to trade Scripture quotations on whether or not we're called to help those are poor and/or disadvantaged and/or oppressed, I'm fairly certain my side will win on this one.

quote:

Liberals love the victim mode. It gives them a purpose in life. If there were no victims, we wouldn't have the Nanny State. The truth hurts but is also heals.

Yep, that's why, all right. It's all a conspiracy to make big government.

This argument would hold somewhat more water if we weren't talking about private groups attempting to help people, and being STOPPED from doing so by the state. Honestly. You're patronizing "truth hurts" rhetoric is kind of pointless.

I'll bow out of that particular debate though, since I'm not actually a liberal.



colliefan -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 3:02:49 PM)

And no one EVER posts the before and after verses. NEVER, you know why it would discredit their arguement!


2 Thess 3:6 - 12 (ESV) 6Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us. 7For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us, because we were not idle when we were with you, 8nor did we eat anyone’s bread without paying for it, but with toil and labor we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you. 9It was not because we do not have that right, but to give you in ourselves an example to imitate. 10For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. 11For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. 12Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.£

Show me how the agruement that if one doesn't work he shouldn't eat fails!!!



colliefan -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 3:05:50 PM)

quote:

private groups attempting to help people,


But there help is only temporal. It gives them a fish instead of teaching them how to fish!



fiat_lux -> RE: Nation Watches Orlando Homeless-Feeding Trial (6/24/2008 3:09:23 PM)

quote:

Show me how the agruement that if one doesn't work he shouldn't eat fails!!!


If one of your countrymen becomes poor and is unable to support himself among you, help him as you would an alien or a temporary resident, so he can continue to live among you. Do not take interest of any kind from him, but fear your God, so that your countryman may continue to live among you. You must not lend him money at interest or sell him food at a profit. - Leviticus 25


Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?

Is it not to share your food with the hungry
and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—
when you see the naked, to clothe him,
and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?
- Isaiah 58

- then there's Jesus's description of the final judgement in Matthew 25, of course

Show me how the argument that if one is poor we should feed him/her fails!!!

If someone is demonstrably able to work and simply unwilling to, I agree we should push him or her to do something. But that verse in Thessalonians is speaking a lot more narrowly than you seem to think it is. In the meantime, I can always look up more.



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