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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/23/2008 11:55:38 PM
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Leon_Figg3
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I just heard about this myself and have wondered just what is going on, and where is it going to go.
"Liberal" Democrats seem to be trying to make in-roads into the Christian community while they continue to stress the importance pf keeping Church and State separate.
From the link I understand that Dobson feels he needs to resond to statements that Obama made not just about him specifically but about Biblical interpretation in general.
In a way I hope that this issue does not take center stage in the presidential campaign, buth then again, perhaps it is time that we all look at issues of Church and State as well as Biblical interpretations and the role of an elected official's "religious" convictions play in the offices they hold.
_____________________________
To whom much is given, much is expected. Luke 12:48
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 1:05:12 AM
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musicboss11
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If you go to oneplace.com and click on "all ministries", and from there click on "focus on the family", you can listen to dobson's broadcast (not live). I don't know how soon after a broadcast they post it on this site. Hope this helps.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 3:02:41 AM
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Dragonnie
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Dobson is quoted there as saying that the dietary laws no longer apply, but they do apply to beleivers.
Many teach that Peter's vision made unclean meat clean, but
1. Christ did not die on the cross to cleanse pigs (loaded w/ parasites)
2. If you just read the entire account, you'll see it has not a thing to do with eating.
_____________________________
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 3:13:27 AM
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Stephanos
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dragonnie
Dobson is quoted there as saying that the dietary laws no longer apply, but they do apply to beleivers.
Many teach that Peter's vision made unclean meat clean, but
1. Christ did not die on the cross to cleanse pigs (loaded w/ parasites)
2. If you just read the entire account, you'll see it has not a thing to do with eating.
Point 1) your hermeneutics is flawed. Yes Peters vision of God lowering the blanket of unclean foods, was a analogy of God saying that the "unclean" Gentiles were now clean and to be apart of the brotherhood of believers, BUT God would NOT have said those animals were now clean, even in an analogy, if they were not.
Point 2) what does Dobson's stance on OT dietary laws have to do with his statement on Obama?
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 8:16:05 AM
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HisLamb26
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The last gasps of a dying movement, from the mouth of one of it's fading leaders.
Sleep Well, Christian Right.
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America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 8:26:58 AM
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Evangel70
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quote:
"Even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools?" Obama said. "Would we go with James Dobson's or Al Sharpton's?" referring to the civil rights leader.
Dobson took aim at examples Obama cited in asking which Biblical passages should guide public policy — chapters like Leviticus, which Obama said suggests slavery is OK and eating shellfish is an abomination, or Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, "a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application."
Obama is right on the money here. Christians can't agree between themselves over issues like baptism (sprinkle or dunk, baptise babies or adults), communion (open table or closed table, one cup, individual cups, wine vs. grape juice); role of the holy spirit (i.e. speaking in tongues, miraculous gifts); the role of women in the church; conflicts over church discipline and discipleship, etc. how could we possibly agree on how to govern by biblical interpretation?
There is a reason why our founding fathers did not establish America as some sort of theocracy. Why would Dobson and the Republicans think legislating faith and obedience to biblical teachings is possible or even practicle?
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 8:32:07 AM
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wing2000
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...excerpt from Obama's speech (he was asking a rhtetorical question... a point which seems to have escaped James Dobson)
.....
Moreover, given the increasing diversity of America's population, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.
And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's? Which passages of Scripture should guide our public policy? Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith? Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles.
This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.
Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what's possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It's the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing. And if you doubt that, let me give you an example.
....read the whole speech here
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 8:38:20 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
There is a reason why our founding fathers did not establish America as some sort of theocracy. Why would Dobson and the Republicans think legislating faith and obedience to biblical teachings is possible or even practicle?
But a faith that is limited in application to an hour a week within the walls of a building is as worthless as no faith at all - if not more so.
I do not know of any rational evangelical that has ever advocated a theocracy in the USA. However, we have as much right as any other citizen to participate fully in politics and to allow our faith to inform our decisions.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 8:54:36 AM
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wing2000
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quote:
I do not know of any rational evangelical that has ever advocated a theocracy in the USA. However, we have as much right as any other citizen to participate fully in politics and to allow our faith to inform our decisions.
...which was one of the main points of Obama's speech....that liberals have ignored people of faith.
It's sad, but not suprising, that Dobson would distory his remarks.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 9:11:35 AM
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Evangel70
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quote:
But a faith that is limited in application to an hour a week within the walls of a building is as worthless as no faith at all - if not more so.
I do not know of any rational evangelical that has ever advocated a theocracy in the USA. However, we have as much right as any other citizen to participate fully in politics and to allow our faith to inform our decisions.
I couldn't agree with you more. Faith that is limited to an hour or two on Sunday is indeed worthless. I also agree that Christians should allow their faith to inform ALL their decisions -- political and otherwise.
However, as Obama so eloquently stated, if I, as a Christian, believe that abortion is wrong, I will have to convince my Budhist neighbor that my believe is based not SOLELY on the teachings of the scripture, which my neighbor may not recognize, by on the belief that "life" is sacred across religious boundaries and should be protected. That is the difference between living out your faith and just talking about your faith.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 9:28:48 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1916
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
....read the whole speech here
Wow, that was a good speech. Assuming the AP article didn't take Dobson's quotes out of context, it's a shame that he didn't grasp the point Obama was trying to make.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 9:30:29 AM
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JimboFletch
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To quote him on a point where we agree:
"So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles."
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 11:38:24 AM
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ElmerFishpaw
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It's beyond me why Obama would want to meet with a nut like Dobson.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 12:03:18 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ElmerFishpaw
It's beyond me why Obama would want to meet with a nut like Dobson.
Because building bridges, even weak and paper thin ones, is better than blowing them up. I can't say I like Dobson all that much. Still, talking is better than not talking.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 12:09:35 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 221
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quote:
Christians can't agree between themselves over issues like baptism (sprinkle or dunk, baptise babies or adults), communion (open table or closed table, one cup, individual cups, wine vs. grape juice); role of the holy spirit (i.e. speaking in tongues, miraculous gifts); the role of women in the church; conflicts over church discipline and discipleship, etc. how could we possibly agree on how to govern by biblical interpretation?
Hey... maybe that's why, those guys in wigs, wrote The ("fruitcake") Constitution?!
(Now would be a good time to put in a plug for the POTUS candidate, that stands up for the Constitution, but he suspended his campaign, a couple weeks ago, so) this space intentionally left blank
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
<< HOF'er LeRoy Kelly
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 12:33:03 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ElmerFishpaw
It's beyond me why Obama would want to meet with a nut like Dobson.
Dr. Irrelevant would live the pub he'd get by meeting with Obummer. After all, he's met with the likes of Dr. laura and Ted Bundy, LOL
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 12:44:29 PM
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davemiller7
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We don't advocate a theocracy in the US, but the Church of the Un-Godly Secular Humanists advocate the elimination of Christianity from politics and everything else.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
There is a reason why our founding fathers did not establish America as some sort of theocracy. Why would Dobson and the Republicans think legislating faith and obedience to biblical teachings is possible or even practicle?
But a faith that is limited in application to an hour a week within the walls of a building is as worthless as no faith at all - if not more so.
I do not know of any rational evangelical that has ever advocated a theocracy in the USA. However, we have as much right as any other citizen to participate fully in politics and to allow our faith to inform our decisions.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 12:47:08 PM
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GroupW
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Cow451-
It occurs to me that your siggy line would be good advice in that other Obama thread....
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 12:51:16 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
We don't advocate a theocracy in the US, but the Church of the Un-Godly Secular Humanists advocate the elimination of Christianity from politics and everything else.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
There is a reason why our founding fathers did not establish America as some sort of theocracy. Why would Dobson and the Republicans think legislating faith and obedience to biblical teachings is possible or even practicle?
But a faith that is limited in application to an hour a week within the walls of a building is as worthless as no faith at all - if not more so.
I do not know of any rational evangelical that has ever advocated a theocracy in the USA. However, we have as much right as any other citizen to participate fully in politics and to allow our faith to inform our decisions.
For the most part, that is what believers did during the 60s and early 70s, when prayer was removed and abortion became legally protected. Christians stayed away from and out of politics while the extreme left, agnostics, humanists, and atheists had their way. When we got back in, they were not a happy bunch, they thought that religion was a private matter to be kept out of real life. We have lost much ground and some believers would have us again leave the public arena.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 1:07:25 PM
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Jhud
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A couple of thoughts.
On one level, Dobson is absolutely right - Christians shouldn't be required to make a 'secular' argument to support certain points of view, particularly when those point of view are intended to influence elections and ultimately the laws that govern us.
In an honest Democratic Republic, Christians should make their arguments and secularists their arguments, and Muslims their arguments, and in the end the faction that most convinces the greatest number of people to vote in favor of their party and proposals rules the day, until the next election. Indeed, that is the purpose of the entirety of the First Amendment.
And secular arguments aren't 'superior' to religious ones - indeed; in many cases they are horribly inferior. There is no secular argument for example demonstrating that people are endowed with certain inalienable rights. Had those writing the Declaration relied on 'secular' arguments, they could never have proffered such a notion. And while some might argue the writers of the Declaration were 'Deists', the point is that they still weren't secularists, and they made a religious argument.
So our country is derived from certain religiously inspired arguments, and Obama is ignorant for not realizing this, and Dobson is right for catching him on it.
That being said, there is no reason for a Christian not to make a non-religious argument if such a thing will convince sufficient numbers of people to support certain positions - there of course exist such arguments against abortion and homosexual marriage, and Christians should know how to employ them or forever be stuck in the political backwaters.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 1:34:48 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 551
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quote:
For the most part, that is what believers did during the 60s and early 70s, when prayer was removed and abortion became legally protected. Christians stayed away from and out of politics while the extreme left, agnostics, humanists, and atheists had their way. When we got back in, they were not a happy bunch, they thought that religion was a private matter to be kept out of real life. We have lost much ground and some believers would have us again leave the public arena.
IMO, you're placing the blame on the wrong people. It's not the fault of the agnostics, humanists or atheists that parents stopped teaching and modeling Christian behaviors and worldviews to their children.
I was born in the 70s and my parents taught all their children the value of prayer and having family devotions by modeling it for their children. We prayed as a family before the kids were put on the school bus, we had family devotions before we went to bed, rarely missed church services and even brought our bibles to public schools. I remember inviting friends from school to VBS and youth camp without interference from school authorities and learned to respect other peoples differences even when I believed they were wrong. That's not to say we didn't have any teenage rebellion or normal family dysfunction, but I never doubted my parent's love for God or for any of their children. While my wife's spiritual upbringing wasn't as sheltered, she learned how to pray and how to trust God from her family as well. We now raise our children in like manner.
It's not (and shouldn't be) the state or the government's responsibility to teach our children moral values. Perhaps society is the way it is today, not because we took prayer out of public schools, but rather because people stopped praying. 
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/24/2008 1:38:11 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1474
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
To quote him on a point where we agree:
"So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles."
After mocking the Bible and God's laws and defending gay marriage and abortion.
I don't know what Bible he's reading.
He didn't knock the Bible or God's laws. Where are you seeing this?
As for defending gay marriage and abortion, he might bet getting those views from the same place where other political leaders have gotten the idea to defend the death penalty and lying to lead a nation like our's into war as being Biblical.
And that's not just directed at the Bush administration; its happened before in history to other leaders.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/24/2008 1:46:37 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1474
Joined: 6/4/2008
From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
quote:
For the most part, that is what believers did during the 60s and early 70s, when prayer was removed and abortion became legally protected. Christians stayed away from and out of politics while the extreme left, agnostics, humanists, and atheists had their way. When we got back in, they were not a happy bunch, they thought that religion was a private matter to be kept out of real life. We have lost much ground and some believers would have us again leave the public arena.
IMO, you're placing the blame on the wrong people. It's not the fault of the agnostics, humanists or atheists that parents stopped teaching and modeling Christian behaviors and worldviews to their children.
I was born in the 70s and my parents taught all their children the value of prayer and having family devotions by modeling it for their children. We prayed as a family before the kids were put on the school bus, we had family devotions before we went to bed, rarely missed church services and even brought our bibles to public schools. I remember inviting friends from school to VBS and youth camp without interference from school authorities and learned to respect other peoples differences even when I believed they were wrong. That's not to say we didn't have any teenage rebellion or normal family dysfunction, but I never doubted my parent's love for God or for any of their children. While my wife's spiritual upbringing wasn't as sheltered, she learned how to pray and how to trust God from her family as well. We now raise our children in like manner.
It's not (and shouldn't be) the state or the government's responsibility to teach our children moral values. Perhaps society is the way it is today, not because we took prayer out of public schools, but rather because people stopped praying.
Great post!!!!
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