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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 1:15:40 PM
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blessedinnyc
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Why should we have to "appease" Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. by banishing our Christianity to the back room and keeping it out of sight?
I think you need to get better at differentiating "banishing Christianity to the back room" and honoring the establishment clause- which prevents any particular religion from taking over the government. This includes Christianity.
quote:
Were they here to win our freedom from England and establish The United States Of America? If any of those groups were here, they were certainly in a tiny minority and didn't contribute anything significant in the founding of this country.
Actually, it was mostly children of the Enlightenment who won our freedom from England. Many of them were Deists, Agnostics, Atheists, Unitarians, and Universalists. Only a handful of these people would be considered Christians by modern Evangelical standards.
quote:
I believe they should be welcome here, IF they come here legally. I do not believe we (The USA) need incorporate their religions, customs, etc. into our laws. You won't find where that is done anywhere in the world. Each sovereign country has its own laws and customs. In some, you can be beheaded for advocating that they adopt your religion and customs. Be thankful you live here in the US and not there. Your belly-aching could be signing your death certificate, or at least a nice long stay in one their cozy prison cells.
Ironically, Iran has a sizeable Jewish population that enjoys a relatively peaceful existence. Christians would also be entitled to live in peace there, as well.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 1:45:28 PM
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lpt
Posts: 147
Joined: 6/8/2006
From: Colorado Springs
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ElmerFishpaw
It's beyond me why Obama would want to meet with a nut like Dobson.
So you feel more affinity with someone who wants to see babies killed even after they've been born alive, than with someone who has committed his life to nurturing and defending the family?
Why such hatred for a (I assume) fellow Christian?
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 1:47:25 PM
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lpt
Posts: 147
Joined: 6/8/2006
From: Colorado Springs
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: ElmerFishpaw
It's beyond me why Obama would want to meet with a nut like Dobson.
Dr. Irrelevant would live the pub he'd get by meeting with Obummer. After all, he's met with the likes of Dr. laura and Ted Bundy, LOL
The hatred for a godly Christian man whose life has been committed to the family is stunning....
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 1:58:07 PM
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davemiller7
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Did you really see where I mentioned "taking over the government." Apparently you need to get better at reading posts. The establishment clause says that Congress shall make no laws............ concerning the establishment of a state religion or church. It doesn't say that the US should honor the religion of any faith other than Christianity either.
As for the rest of your post, you read your new, enlightened, and revised history books. I'll read mine.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Why should we have to "appease" Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. by banishing our Christianity to the back room and keeping it out of sight?
I think you need to get better at differentiating "banishing Christianity to the back room" and honoring the establishment clause- which prevents any particular religion from taking over the government. This includes Christianity.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 2:07:00 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6386
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Just for my edification, are you saying we should aim our laws to the lowest common denominator and hope that we'll eventually win all the Jews, Muslims, Hindu's, etc. and... what, change the laws to fit the new reality?
I think you're missing the point. Laws are neither an effective way to spread the gospel, nor is it the only way to spread the gospel.
Jesus gave us a mission to make disciples of all nations. He did not instruct us to:
"Go to Rome. Take over the government, and make it illegal to practice other religions."
FYI: Today, in the good old US of A, WE, the citizens that vote and participate, ARE ROME. We are not at the mercy of a separate, sovereign nation - yet.
And I'm not sure where you get the idea that I advocate outlawing other religions. But my sense of morality and justice is derived from the same Judea/Christian values as the framers of the Constitution. I see no reason to adopt a Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist world view.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 2:09:10 PM
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PolarBear
Posts: 743
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From: Moving to San Antonio!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lpt
The hatred for a godly Christian man whose life has been committed to the family is stunning....
Agreed. Dobson may occasionally overreact but on the whole he's right on the money. I get his newsletter, and a recent one pointed out a couple other things that are pretty disturbing:
* California banned homeschooling, ignoring all evidence that homeschooled kids do very well
* A new law in Colorado makes it so that transgender folks need to have access to any bathroom they want, pretty much without question, and if say a business owner tries to prevent that he could spend time in jail. That's got to be ripe for abuse, say, by a pervert ...
Both simply defy common sense. And which party is almost exclusively responsible for this nonsense? Democrats!
Also Obama's arguments for abortion fail for other reasons, not just because God opposes it (though that should be enough). First, it can be easily shown that an embryo is a tiny human -- it looks just like a human, and at an early age it can respond to stimuli, etc. Also, even if abortion should be allowed because there are "only religious" objections to it, it is unconscionable to force others who oppose it to pay for it. And that is exactly what Democrats want. They want us to fund abortions for lower income parents both here and overseas.
I can sort of respect the Libertarian position because they would fiercely oppose forcing people to pay for others' abortions against their will, and I'm certain that true Libertarianism must be pro-life because the unborn are indeed human. I think Obama, by the words of his speech, sort of articulated the Libertarian position, while in his heart and by his actions, he supports the Democratic position.
Republicans are far from perfect, but there will be a blizzard in the Sahara before I vote for a Democrat at any level. Any vote for any D candidate indirectly supports this stuff!
_____________________________
My current ministry dream:
http://victorymuseum.org
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 2:09:46 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
We either steer the morality via law toward Christian values or we capitulate and let the lost steer the laws the way of the world. We simply become unsalty salt and hide our light under a bushel.
So really we either devote our efforts towards sharing the gospel or taking over the government. I think that Jesus makes the right choice incredibly clear.
To put our mind at rest, how many people have you shared the Gospel with this year... month... today?
Where did you get the impression that voting or even serving in government and sharing the Gospel is mutually exclusive? That's really news to me.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 2:19:22 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1812
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
To put our mind at rest, how many people have you shared the Gospel with this year... month... today?
I would say about five this year. In any case, I have devoted more energy to sharing the gospel than I have to political activism. Last year, I routinely handed out bottled water along with information about the Good News on Friday and Saturday nights around bars, as well as organized neighborhood dinners at my church where members invited friends who normally didn't attend. The recent credit crisis has kept me much busier, but I am still working to share the gospel.
In any case, I think that food is a much better tool for witnessing- and helping the country conform to God's will- than politics. 
quote:
Where did you get the impression that voting or even serving in government and sharing the Gospel is mutually exclusive? That's really news to me.
Because it's really tough to effectively offer someone the free choice to accept Christ if you have any sort of power over them.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/25/2008 2:28:16 PM >
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 2:45:06 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Because it's really tough to effectively offer someone the free choice to accept Christ if you have any sort of power over them.
Sorry, I don'y buy that. Are you familiar with people like King David? Or Joseph when he was second in the kingdom to Pharoah?
What you are saying is that if a Mayor, Govenor, Senator, Congressman, or the President called you or met you on the street, he couldn't influence you to listen to the Gospel?
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 3:16:40 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1812
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
What you are saying is that if a Mayor, Govenor, Senator, Congressman, or the President called you or met you on the street, he couldn't influence you to listen to the Gospel?
Oh, he could influence me to "listen", and before you knew it, I'd be a born-again Christian. The Mayor's handing out jobs to born-again Christians, right?
See what I'm saying? It's very easy to create a large number of "Christians" if you use power over people to do it. Unfortunately, they will just be a part of the false church.
If you want true Christians, you have to minister to them in a way where the only thing they have to gain is the peace and salvation found in Christ (maybe along with some free food or water, whether or not they accept Christ or not.)
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 6/25/2008 3:26:36 PM >
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 3:40:15 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6386
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
What you are saying is that if a Mayor, Govenor, Senator, Congressman, or the President called you or met you on the street, he couldn't influence you to listen to the Gospel?
Oh, he could influence me to "listen", and before you knew it, I'd be a born-again Christian. The Mayor's handing out jobs to born-again Christians, right?
And such a mayor would survive in office how long?
What makes you think that the people that respond to your message aren't just looking for some free bottled water, free credit assistance, or just to get you to move along????
My understanding from scripture is that our job is to sow the seed, God gives the increase. It's not by our cleverness that souls are won, but the Gospel empowered by the Holy Spirit.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 4:00:26 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1812
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
What you are saying is that if a Mayor, Govenor, Senator, Congressman, or the President called you or met you on the street, he couldn't influence you to listen to the Gospel?
Oh, he could influence me to "listen", and before you knew it, I'd be a born-again Christian. The Mayor's handing out jobs to born-again Christians, right?
And such a mayor would survive in office how long?
What makes you think that the people that respond to your message aren't just looking for some free bottled water, free credit assistance, or just to get you to move along????
My understanding from scripture is that our job is to sow the seed, God gives the increase. It's not by our cleverness that souls are won, but the Gospel empowered by the Holy Spirit.
98% of the people I handed out water to said thanks and kept on walking, as expected. They got a tract based on John 4:14 (Jesus offers water where you will never thirst again) wrapped around the bottle and information on where they can find more info about Jesus.
Most of the people who decided to stop and talk about Christianity either were drunk and looking for a debate about abortion, were other Christians, or seemed like they really were looking for help, spiritually.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 4:10:12 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6386
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
98% of the people I handed out water to said thanks and kept on walking, as expected. They got a tract based on John 4:14 (Jesus offers water where you will never thirst again) wrapped around the bottle and information on where they can find more info about Jesus.
Most of the people who decided to stop and talk about Christianity either were drunk and looking for a debate about abortion, were other Christians, or seemed like they really were looking for help, spiritually.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Is it that you aren't really sharing the Gospel, just handing out water and dealing with closed-minded people? I only hand out contact information after I've shared Jesus, but that's usually in their home or during a discussion instead on the street.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 4:35:41 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1812
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I'm not sure what you're saying. Is it that you aren't really sharing the Gospel, just handing out water and dealing with closed-minded people? I only hand out contact information after I've shared Jesus, but that's usually in their home or during a discussion instead on the street.
I'm saying folks aren't under any sort of coercion to accept Jesus. We're offering water for them to simply talk to us or just get a pamphlet on Jesus. It's often difficult for traditional Protestant Christians to open up to total strangers; some of us might even be a little startled ourselves if strangers knocked on our door wanting to talk about Jesus, so the best we can do is hand out bottled water on the street with information about Jesus and if people still want to talk to us, we've already broken the ice.
Besides that, if people aren't ready to hear about Christ, we've only made Christians look mildly nutty when they are ready. If we went to the street corner with a megaphone and picket signs that said "Jesus or Hell", we'd risk ensuring that when people need Christ the most, they'll be running away from him as fast as possible. A lot of people who are ready for Christ have come to decide on their own that they're sinners and they're looking for some sort of mercy. (Luke 18:9-14)
So my point- and this brings us back to the topic- is that figures like Dobson who represent Christ and get angry about sin often impede the process of making disciples of all nations.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 4:55:27 PM
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BHL
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Comparing Obama to Dobson;
1st Dobson - ok sometimes he stretches things out a bit and gets on some shaky ground. I can forgive him for that. At least he's consistant and I know where he's coming from.
Obama - Everything he says sounds good. But what exactly is he really saying? A pure Christian rationale is not appropriate in discussing abortion; fine, I can accept that. But then be honest with me with regards to what your position truly is. I notice how he tends to avoid discussing specifics in regards to controversial subjects, and instead seeks to apply sugar coating. Instead all I have is his vote and his weak rationale for justifying partial-birth in that it's needed in the event the mother's health is at risk.
That medical needs argument is without merit, as no one has ever presented a valid condition where the mother's health would be at risk. In the meantime Obama is justifying himself and his vote.
He believes Christ is Lord and Savior. Fine, it is between him and God. What I see is a man who claims to be a strong Christian not consistently speaking as a strong Christian should.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 5:01:05 PM
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JimboFletch
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I agree that the "Jesus or Hell" doesn't do much to get someone's ear. Jesus' method was connect with people in a real personal way before sharing His Gospel. The only loud, critical messages that He delivered were to the self-righteous religious hypocrites.
Down here in the South, striking up a casual conversation with a complete stranger is commonplace, so we don't have as many obstacles to overcome. People willingly invite you into their homes. I've only ever had one person ask me to leave but that wasn't about why I was there but because he and his wife were having a loud argument and wasn't in a listening or talking mood.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 5:52:37 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1812
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I agree that the "Jesus or Hell" doesn't do much to get someone's ear. Jesus' method was connect with people in a real personal way before sharing His Gospel. The only loud, critical messages that He delivered were to the self-righteous religious hypocrites.
Well, it's not just that the message is ineffective; I would go further to say that it may even do some damage. Maybe we sort of walk on this tightrope, trying to balance between the fact that God finds sin abominable and the fact that God offers grace and love to sinners.
quote:
Down here in the South, striking up a casual conversation with a complete stranger is commonplace, so we don't have as many obstacles to overcome. People willingly invite you into their homes. I've only ever had one person ask me to leave but that wasn't about why I was there but because he and his wife were having a loud argument and wasn't in a listening or talking mood.
It's very, very different up north. You often get people to open up, but you first have to get them into a discussion about Jesus; hence the bottled water and pamphlets that they can read and discuss if they're in the mood.
One time, I was trying to get out of town at JFK, and there was a huge storm. We're waiting in line for security, and the lady in front of me is sort of facing me. I ask her where she is heading. She looks at me like I'm nuts, and then proceeds to get out of line, heading to the back of another line, just so she can avoid the person who was crazy enough to try and strike up a conversation with her.
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RE: James Dobson on Obama - 6/25/2008 7:43:42 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 825
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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Hey, that's typical for NY. 
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
One time, I was trying to get out of town at JFK, and there was a huge storm. We're waiting in line for security, and the lady in front of me is sort of facing me. I ask her where she is heading. She looks at me like I'm nuts, and then proceeds to get out of line, heading to the back of another line, just so she can avoid the person who was crazy enough to try and strike up a conversation with her.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 8:42:39 PM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 357
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
An interesting British perspective on Dobson's statements about Obama can be found at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/justinwebb/2008/06/the_strange_death_of_social_co.html
The comments following it are interesting, too!
This is the first time I have posted a link to a news item, so if I have done in incorrectly or improperly, please let me know and excuse my ignorance!
Thor
Hi thorakai,
Thanks for that link. That was an interesting article.
quote:
Mr Dobson's efforts to get himself inserted into the broader political debate (it is only weeks since he was attacking John McCain) seem more than a touch desperate.
My feelings exactly. We'll huff, and we'll puff, and we'll blow your house down comes to mind here.
Good riddance I say!
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 9:04:14 PM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 357
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Hey thorakai,
You might like this article. It is from 12/2006, but prophetic I think in pointing out the waning political clout of the Christian right, and the likes of Dobson et al. I am not at all suprised they have no horse in the race this time around-I have sensed this twilight coming for quite some time.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/18347
quote:
For a few decades now, a narrow view of Christianity has dominated the public square; it’s a pinched theology consumed with sexuality but also taking a variety of conservative positions that don’t seem to have much to do with the Gospel. That hard-shell Christianity has as its standard-bearers such men as Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and Pat Robertson.
The good news of this Christmas season is this: Not only have those theocrats seen their political clout erode with Republican losses in the midterm elections,
but their brand of Christianity is also losing its monopoly on the public square.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/25/2008 11:20:18 PM
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Solus
Posts: 100
Joined: 5/27/2008
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I think Obama will be the worst president we have ever had and I disagree with him on almost every issue. But I do agree with him on this. America should not become a Theocracy.
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 12:00:43 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 739
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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I don't understand why people have been attacking Dobson for calling Obama out on his stance, which others have already pointed out, is usually whatever the group he is speaking to wants to hear. His arguments are not valid, and his stance on these moral issues does not reflect the stance a Christian should hold to. He has constantly lied to us, and changed his mind about accusations against him. He is for abortion, for homosexual rights, wants to teach 6 year olds that it is a perfectly acceptable alternative lifestyle, and claims Jesus is not the only way. Clearly he is not a Christian, and we need more Christian leaders to stand up against him, and to expose him for what he is, which is a straight up old school lying politician who says what he needs to say to get our votes. Are we all really this blind to his lies?
Not to mention that he has changed his mind on bill voting, like they all seem to do. Namely the gas tax holiday, which he voted for 3 times as senator, but now it is not a good idea. He claims to be an agent of change, yet he shows no ability to change. Except his mind on key issues.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 1:48:59 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1048
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all.
Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice. Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what's possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It's the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime, but to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing.
...and I think what upsets Dobson is he rejects the notion of a pluralistic democracy.
< Message edited by wing2000 -- 6/26/2008 1:58:49 AM >
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 2:26:46 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1815
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
We can
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:18)
Witness.
Lead the lost to the Lord.
Invite them to church.
Disciple them.
Attend to their other needs if you're able.
Be a friend. Show love.
If every Christian did their Christian duty as outlined in the Great Commission and throughout God's Word, maybe one day we'll truly be a Christian nation. And not just a country of people who are forced to act like Christians.
- Julius
As always good post.
I do not want a Christian or those that claim it to be ruler over anything.
Toooo much has been done in Christ's name. Spanish Inquisition, etc.
Lord knows I'm not a BO supporter but I agree.
Can you imagine a Benny Hinn or Jim Bakker or what's the guy Ted ?(Christian guy got caught being gay and using meth)teaching your kids? Or be a judge? Or a senator. Or trying to morally legislate us.
No no no!
With the stats saying 92% believe in G-D.
The problem is clearly those of us that say we Believe in G-D.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: America as a Theocracy - 6/26/2008 2:39:13 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4391
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
I do not want a Christian or those that claim it to be ruler over anything.
So without a doubt you desire a known evil ruler?
quote:
Toooo much has been done in Christ's name. Spanish Inquisition, etc.
What does that have to do with people that actually fear God?
quote:
Can you imagine a Benny Hinn or Jim Bakker or what's the guy Ted ?(Christian guy got caught being gay and using meth)teaching your kids? Or be a judge? Or a senator. Or trying to morally legislate us.
You have people in there pushing their own ungodly agenda already... No need for the above group of swines...
quote:
With the stats saying 92% believe in G-D.
Of course god could mean anything...
quote:
The problem is clearly those of us that say we Believe in G-D.
Of course... All we need to do is rid the world of those pesky believers and the world will heal itself and everyone will live in peace...
John
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