Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (Full Version)

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Covaan_Meshuga -> Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 12:13:21 AM)

This is a discussion between Drmark and Covaan_Meshuga (aka Abiyah). We have attempted to have this discussion before, but it has not worked out. Others are welcome to join us, but I want it very clear that the posts need to be paragraphed often, written in upper and lowercase letters, and as short/succinct as possible. Although my vision problems are fairly well managed (since my diabetes is now under control) I other reading problems. Be kind.

And harassment will not be tolerated.
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6/23/2008 9:53:24 AM -- Covaan_Meshuga
On a very human level, one of the major problems I see with the doctrine which teaches that believers do not sin is that when the believer does sin, this doctrine makes it very difficult for the person to admit the sin and seek forgiveness. They put so much pressure on the believer to be perfect, to number the days, weeks, months, and years during which they have not sinned that the person becomes focused upon what they can achieve, not upon what Messiah achieved for them with His death and resurrection. This is a matter of pride.

But the other problem is what the Scriptures clearly state: that if we say that we have no sin, we lie, and the truth isn't in us. Otherwise, why should the blood of Messiah have to continue to cleanse us from those sins? Rather, we continue to confess our sins, so He is faithful and true to His word that He will cleanse us from all of our unrighteousness. So we keep His commandments, because anyone who claims to be a believer in Him but who does not keep the commandments is a liar. When we can do this as mature believers, doing what we have had opportunity to know and understand, then we know we are his. So we walk as He walked. And this is not some new commandment that John has written: it's the same commandments that were there from the beginning.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 12:14:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

On a very human level, one of the major problems I see with the doctrine which teaches that believers do not sin is that when the believer does sin, this doctrine makes it very difficult for the person to admit the sin and seek forgiveness. They put so much pressure on the believer to be perfect, to number the days, weeks, months, and years during which they have not sinned that the person becomes focused upon what they can achieve, not upon what Messiah achieved for them with His death and resurrection. This is a matter of pride.
Which is precisely why holiness does not work "on a very human level"! Holiness is only and always by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. If "they" means a church or denominational doctrine that puts pressure on Believers to be perfect, then that church or doctrine is flat out wrong! Pride has no place in the heart of the entirely sanctified Christian.

quote:

But the other problem is what the Scriptures clearly state: that if we say that we have no sin, we lie, and the truth isn't in us.
No Abiyah, one verse in 1 John is taken out of context to be misunderstood as basis for a sinning religion. How do you interpret 1 John 3:6, 3:9, and 5:18? Do these Scriptures clearly state that true children of God do not persist in willful sin? I believe they do!

quote:

And this is not some new commandment that John has written: it's the same commandments that were there from the beginning.
Actually, it was Jesus who spoke the new command in John 13:34 - "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another." This can and will only be accomplished through the perfect Love of Christ indwelling our hearts, souls, bodies, and minds!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 12:15:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga

Perhaps we can have a "conversation" re this subject this time. I remain interested, but I will quickly bow out, if I get any feeling whatsoever that the conversation is even leaning toward harassment or anything similar, whether or not anyone else sees it that way -- you included. I will not go there, Mark, because it makes me very uncomfortable.

Oh, and rest assured that you have never done the above to me or to anyone else that I have ever seen. I would ask you to please understand if I suddenly disappear, but I will not do that without explanation, and you will understand.

Bluntly, I am interested in the truth, so if we can look into this in peace, what the old church did and taught will not influence me, nor will what my synagogue teaches.

Also, please understand that I am not schooled in either church terminology or thought, so we will have to keep things on a very simple level.



drmark -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 8:51:16 AM)

quote:

Bluntly, I am interested in the truth, so if we can look into this in peace, what the old church did and taught will not influence me, nor will what my synagogue teaches.
Should not all Christians "be interested in the truth", since Jesus is the Truth? Why would you not be influenced by godly saints who went before us, upholding the Truth with their very lives on occasion? Why would a Christian attend any synagogue or church if its teachings are not worthy to influence her/him? I really have become most concerned about this widespread attitude that I perceive throughout the Theology forums which implies to me that the only true Christian doctrine is the one that the individual cooks up on her/his own. Is anyone else concerned by this perception, or am I just over-reacting?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 1:16:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Bluntly, I am interested in the truth, so if we can look into this in peace, what the old church did and taught will not influence me, nor will what my synagogue teaches.


You immediately misunderstand me, Mark, and that is part of the problem people have in communication. Others' terminology, as is common within different religious understandings, means one thing in their minds, while the same words mean something different to another; You, also, have words and terminology that are unfamiliar to me, while I use words and terminology that are unfamiliar to you. When we each think we are being clear, we are surprised when the other disagrees or does not understand.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
...Why would you not be influenced by godly saints who went before us, upholding the Truth with their very lives on occasion?


Here is an example. I simply was not thinking along the lines you thought I was. No biggie.

In what I wrote, I intended that the teachings of the church I used to attend, in spite of them being a holiness doctrine, would not have influence in our discussion, as much as possible, because I have rejected them as a false doctrine.

However, since you brought up the idea of being influenced "by godly saints who went before us," that can be a problem in understanding another as well. Why bring up what your saints think, if the other person is not of your religion and, therefore, may not see these persons as saints? If the concept can be clearly shown in Scripture, use Scripture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Why would a Christian attend any synagogue or church if its teachings are not worthy to influence her/him?


Here, now, I have no concept whatsoever of what you are writing! Could you explain your intention before I assume that what I think you mean is what you really mean?

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
I really have become most concerned about this widespread attitude that I perceive throughout the Theology forums which implies to me that the only true Christian doctrine is the one that the individual cooks up on her/his own. Is anyone else concerned by this perception, or am I just over-reacting?


Waaalll, since I have no idea what you intend, it is hard for me to answer. Perhaps this was just a rhetorical question? If not, are you thinking that I am one who "cooks up" my own understanding of the Bible?

When I came here to start this thread, I did not come with ulterior motivies. I started it so that I could begin to understand your idea re "Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification." I came here with honest and open intentions. Why? Because you seem so adamant about telling your concepts of them, on every thread that brings them up. So I am interested. If you don't what to discuss these issues, just say it, and we'll close this thread.



drmark -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 1:55:04 PM)

quote:

You immediately misunderstand me
So please explain what you mean by "the old church did and taught will not influence me, nor will what my synagogue teaches." I believe it is impossible for a Christian not to be influenced by "the old church" or their present church. Christianity is a social religion in which we all learn from one another, both past and present Believers.

quote:

In what I wrote, I intended that the teachings of the church I used to attend, in spite of them being a holiness doctrine, would not have influence in our discussion, as much as possible, because I have rejected them as a false doctrine.
Sound holiness doctrine is never false. What specifically led you to reject this previous teaching?

quote:

Why bring up what your saints think, if the other person is not of your religion and, therefore, may not see these persons as saints? If the concept can be clearly shown in Scripture, use Scripture.
I do not have saints, Abiyah. The word is well-defined in NT writings and refers to any Believer set apart for holy living in the Body of Christ.

quote:

quote:

Why would a Christian attend any synagogue or church if its teachings are not worthy to influence her/him?

Here, now, I have no concept whatsoever of what you are writing!
So please clarify what you mean by "what my synagogue teaches will not influence me". Why do you attend an institution which will not influence you? Is that even possible?

quote:

I started it so that I could begin to understand your idea re "Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification."
There are numerous resources that carefully explain the Biblical basis of sin, salvation, and sanctification from the Wesleyan/Holiness doctrinal tradition. Would you like me to post some links for you to explore?

quote:

Because you seem so adamant about telling your concepts of them, on every thread that brings them up.
Just like you, Abiyah, I am interested in the truth. These are not "my concepts", they are God's commands and I do get a little bit adamant about sharing God's commands with fellow Believers!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 2:37:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
You immediately misunderstand me

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
So please explain what you mean by "the old church did and taught will not influence me, nor will what my synagogue teaches." I believe it is impossible for a Christian not to be influenced by "the old church" or their present church. Christianity is a social religion in which we all learn from one another, both past and present Believers.
I am trying to write that this is between you and me; I will not allow the influences of others to interfere, as much as is humanly possible. I just wanted to see your defense of the ideas of "Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification" without letting others' teachings get in the way, Mark. You seem so defensive in our posts in this thread, Mark, and I am very puzzled by that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
In what I wrote, I intended that the teachings of the church I used to attend, in spite of them being a holiness doctrine, would not have influence in our discussion, as much as possible, because I have rejected them as a false doctrine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Sound holiness doctrine is never false. What specifically led you to reject this previous teaching?
They did not live out what they claimed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Why bring up what your saints think, if the other person is not of your religion and, therefore, may not see these persons as saints? If the concept can be clearly shown in Scripture, use Scripture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
I do not have saints, Abiyah. The word is well-defined in NT writings and refers to any Believer set apart for holy living in the Body of Christ.
See the following:
quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Why would you not be influenced by godly saints who went before us, upholding the Truth with their very lives on occasion?
From your post 4 here Mark. You often quote Wesley as your defense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Why would a Christian attend any synagogue or church if its teachings are not worthy to influence her/him?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Here, now, I have no concept whatsoever of what you are writing!
quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
So please clarify what you mean by "what my synagogue teaches will not influence me". Why do you attend an institution which will not influence you? Is that even possible?
Again, I said this in the context of our discussion, Mark. I am trying to be open to what you have to write.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
I started it so that I could begin to understand your idea re "Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification."

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
There are numerous resources that carefully explain the Biblical basis of sin, salvation, and sanctification from the Wesleyan/Holiness doctrinal tradition. Would you like me to post some links for you to explore?
No! You and I both know that people make of such teachings what they perceive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abiyah
Because you seem so adamant about telling your concepts of them, on every thread that brings them up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark
Just like you, Abiyah, I am interested in the truth. These are not "my concepts", they are God's commands and I do get a little bit adamant about sharing God's commands with fellow Believers!
Oh, Mark. They are your perception of what G-d has said, just as my beliefs are based upon my perceptions of what G-d has said. There are a kajillion people out there who will tell us that G-d has told them things that are absolutely unbiblical.

I am trying to see what you believe, then I am trying to see how you live out what you say, because I have never seen it done.



rcjames -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 4:32:44 PM)

On sin, salvation and sanctification;

John says in regards to sin, salvation, and sanctification;

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

A simple study of the Greek will show that John is speaking to continuing in or walking in sin in these and other passages.

Paul speads to wilful sin after salvation;

(Heb 10:26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

(Heb 10:27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Jesus speaks to sin and sanctification of those who think they are saved;

(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Paul speaks to commiting sin and entering the Kingdom of God;

(Gal 5:16) This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

(Gal 5:17) For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

(Gal 5:18) But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

(Gal 5:19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

(Gal 5:20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

(Gal 5:21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Peter says on the Day of Pentecost to those that want to be saved;

(Act 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Notice the "REPENT" part.

Etc, etc. etc.

A person who is walking in sin, living in sin, continuing in sin has not repented of sin in not a child of God. Period.

Thsnks
RC

edited for spelling



drmark -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 5:00:49 PM)

quote:

I just wanted to see your defense of the ideas of "Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification" without letting others' teachings get in the way, Mark.
Other's teachings do not "get in the way" of my doctrinal understandings, Abiyah. Indeed, they enhance my understandings since I am not a trained theologian or Biblical scholar. Are you?

quote:

You seem so defensive in our posts in this thread, Mark, and I am very puzzled by that.
I'm sorry you feel that way but I am not defensive as far as I can tell.

quote:

They did not live out what they claimed.
So how does that make all their doctrine automatically unsound? The Pharisees certainly did not live out what they claimed, yet they upheld sound doctrine regarding many aspects of Judaism.

quote:

Again, I said this in the context of our discussion, Mark. I am trying to be open to what you have to write
I guess that means I cannot be open in what I write because I am greatly influenced by Christian tradition and my church/denomination in specific.

quote:

No! You and I both know that people make of such teachings what they perceive.
Yes, we all make of such teachings what we perceive. Does that make them any less valuable for discussion?

quote:

There are a kajillion people out there who will tell us that G-d has told them things that are absolutely unbiblical
Perhaps, but then we would know that G-d did not tell them things that are absolutely unbiblical, since that is expressly against His Nature. Abiyah, it would really help me if you would focus on a fairly specific issue and then examine the Scriptural support for my "personal" doctrine, as you like to think of it. Do you have a particular subject in mind?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 7:41:10 PM)

This is obviously not going to work, Mark. Let's just drop this and close the thread. You and I are obviously not communicating, and that really surprises me. But hey, thanks -- we tried. Just understand that I have already run out of any energy I thought I had toward discussing it.

-- unless RC wants to discuss it fully, or anyone else who is of the Wesleyan or Arminian understanding. To anyone who wishes to discuss it, I would like to really look into it, to discuss what the Scriptures mean, the Greek Scriptures on the subject (although I took Greek 30 years ago and did NOT keep it up), etc. And please understand that I am coming from a more reformed point of view. However, I am not interested in supporting either point of view; I simply want to see the truth.



drmark -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/24/2008 11:13:31 PM)

quote:

A person who is walking in sin, living in sin, continuing in sin has not repented of sin in not a child of God. Period.
So how does this doctrinal position (with which I fully agree) match up with 1 John 1:8 in which John states that if we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves? How does a child of God not walk in sin, not live in sin, and not continue in sin and yet be deceived if they claim to be without sin?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/25/2008 8:46:57 AM)

Having spent 5/6 of my life in a church that taught perfectionism, every one-in-awhile, I long strongly for it in my own life, because I have always been so faulty. Thus this thread. However, having been around the doctrine so long, and never seeing it lived out in any of its professors, eventually, common sense sets in, and I realize that no one can be what they claimed. That is where I am three days after I started this thread. I suppose I may always fall into that trap on occasion. It is difficult to shake the results of long involvement.

I struggle with reading, and I know that it will take a lot for me to answer my own questions, but I have to just bite down and do it. Sometimes, I look for an easier way, as I did through this thread, but things of great value rarely come easily. I should have known this thread would not help me toward my goal of gaining a complete understanding of the issue.

Thank you, RC, for your Scriptures, which I am presently studying within their books, with other Scriptures. However, once I post this note, I will unsubscribe.



drmark -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/25/2008 9:19:22 AM)

quote:

Having spent 5/6 of my life in a church that taught perfectionism
Then may I respectfully suggest that you've spent 5/6 of your life listening to false doctrine. The sound doctrine of Christian perfection is NOT perfectionism, Abiyah!

quote:

I should have known this thread would not help me toward my goal of gaining a complete understanding of the issue.
It is difficult, but surely not impossible, to overcome decades of listening to false doctrine. If G-d wants you to "gain a complete understanding of the issue", He will enable that goal. Are you certain that's His goal or just your goal?



bluestone -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/25/2008 9:38:30 AM)

Just popping in with something that may be of value.

There are interpretations of Arminianism besides the Wesleyan.
Strict Arminanism, as well as reformed Arminian are around, though not as popular or widespread.

Most Wesleyan-Arminians in this age don't teach perfectionism, although pockets here and there still do. This happened in my old church, along with some other very questionable practices, which lead to a split, a church put in a state of crisis by the denomination, and a pastor being ultimately defrocked.

Holiness doctrine has to be understood in light of their definition of sin: A willful violation of a known law of God.

Extremism exists in the Holiness movement as it does in all others. Sadly, the extremists get the most attention, thus are the standard by which the group is judged.

There is variety within churches as with all other theological groupings.

What was considered fine and dandy in the church I was in in a very large city was NOT in the small town I later lived in, althought they were the same denomination. Culture effects our views on doctrine.

Some of the "mainstream" holiness denominations include: Salvation Army, the Wesleyan church, Church of the Nazarene, Free Will Methodists, Christian & Missionary Alliance.

There are other groups and independant churches whose teachings, although rooted in Holiness, are far from it.

There are diffrences in opinion as to whether sanctification is instantaneous as a second work of grace, or if it is progressive.

Some of these churches have moved away from legalism, others are caught up in it.



drmark -> RE: Discussion re Sin, Salvation, and Sanctification (6/26/2008 9:00:51 AM)

quote:

There are diffrences in opinion as to whether sanctification is instantaneous as a second work of grace, or if it is progressive.
Actually, the "majority opinion" in my Holiness denomination is that entire sanctification starts as a crisis event and is worked out through a lifetime of progresssive growth in grace. I personally have found this to be Biblically-based and experientially sound in my life.



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