RE: I need some opinions

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phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 1:46:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solarflare quote: And I see no one addressed the entire last half of my post. Interesting............ Verse one of chapter 19 has God telling Moses to speak to the entire assembly of Israel . What did God have to say them? "BE HOLY BECAUSE I, THE LORD YOUR GOD, AM HOLY." Some of the precepts in this chapter are ceremonial - but certainly not all and for that reason should not be dismissed. Basically, the Israelites are being admonished to be separate from the world - ie: they are told not to MIX different things together - whether seed planted in a field, or two types of material, or two different animals. You could say that these instructions were symbolic of Israel being separate from the world around them. So why say that all Christians much obey one of those verses but none of the others because they were ceremonial. That makes no sense. quote: When addressing a gray area - or one that engenders at least two very different opinions - you must finally ask yourself the following: Is my decision in keeping with Jesus instruction to "Love God with all my heart and all mind and all my soul?" Am I showing love to others if I go ahead and do this? (whatever it may be) So, with freedom also comes responsibility - which is certainly indicated in Romans chapter 14. You have freedom to do what you think is right - but, as a Christian, your decisions should not be from selfish motives. Let's see. I love ice cream. Am I showing love to others if I go ahead and buy that Ben & Jerry's? This seems kind of amoral. Am I being selfish? Absolutely. I love ice cream. I'm not helping anyone by buying & eating it. Does that mean I am being sinful because I have ice cream in my freezer? Do you see why you need to be careful how you selectively apply Scriptures? By the way and for the record: I don't have any tattoos and have absolutely no desire to get any. quote: Keep in mind also, that we are to be separate from the world in this century as well - nothing has changed there. We are still to be 'holy' -set apart for God I Peter 2: 11-17 Being 'free' does not mean free to do whatever we want. It is whatever is acceptable in God's revealed will to us - one of the main ideas behind Lev. 19, is separation from the world. #1 Separation from the world means that we are to live Holy lives - in other words, we are to love our neighbors. We shouldn't steal. We shouldn't be committing adultery and sleeping around, etc. It does not mean we are supposed to dress up like a cult and "look" physically different. #2 Who are you to decide what someone else is free to do when it comes to something like this? Is that not between God and the person? quote: This is also a requirement for NT Christianity. So, basically, a person could and should ask the following before making their decision to do something held as controversial between Christians - "How should I, as a Christian, address the culture around me? How are my actions going to prove or disapprove to unbelievers around me, that I am a Christian?" How does getting a tattoo disprove someone's Christianity? Seriously. What culture do you live in? Around here a tattoo is no big deal - to anyone... I have NEVER met a single person who thinks that because someone has a tattoo, they must not be a Christian. NEVER. Now, depending on what the tattoo is, there may be question (if someone has KKK tattood across their forehead, I'll probably be leery of them), but do you realize you can get a tattoo of pretty much anything? I know many believers who get ones to remind them of their faith and to be a testament of their faith in God. quote: Please remember that Christians, so described as in NT times, did not have a social relationship with the world - they were persecuted, sometimes tortured and sometimes put to death for their beliefs. Ummm. They weren't persecuted because they dressed differently and had different outward appearances... quote: If we have freedom, it is with a price - first of all the price paid by Christ Jesus on the cross for us and then, we ourselves, in remembrance of Him and out of love for God and respect for ourselves and other Christians and concern for unbelievers around us. Absolutely our freedom was bought at a price and as such I believe that to go back to being a slave to the law and a slave to tradition would be to reject that gift that cost God so very much.

solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 1:57:25 PM)
quote: Let's see. I love ice cream. Am I showing love to others if I go ahead and buy that Ben & Jerry's? This seems kind of amoral. Am I being selfish? Absolutely. I love ice cream. I'm not helping anyone by buying & eating it. Does that mean I am being sinful because I have ice cream in my freezer? You are kidding, right? I don't know whether to laugh or cry...... Do you see why you need to be careful how you selectively apply Scriptures? Hmmmm, as you say........

phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 2:11:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solarflare quote: Let's see. I love ice cream. Am I showing love to others if I go ahead and buy that Ben & Jerry's? This seems kind of amoral. Am I being selfish? Absolutely. I love ice cream. I'm not helping anyone by buying & eating it. Does that mean I am being sinful because I have ice cream in my freezer? You are kidding, right? I don't know whether to laugh or cry...... I am being totally serious. I am using your logic to show why your logic doesn't make sense and doesn't work. What's the difference? You find it absurd because it's not tradition for this to be considered sinful, but it is "tradition" to frown on tattoos. I am trying to challenge you to see past tradition and see what Scripture REALLY says and REALLY DOESN'T say. The fact is that I could easily apply everything you are arguing to my ice cream argument and tell folks ice cream is sinful. I could drag out verses on gluttony. I could show how there are "better", more spiritual things I could use my money for. I could show how buying ice cream doesn't bring any glory to God or help my neighbor or show that I am a Christian (after all, non-Christians buy ice cream). I could argue that it makes me look like the world because the world loves ice cream and I'm following the world. I could argue every single thing you are arguing. So what's the difference?

MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 2:55:16 PM)
quote: Let's keep that for another thread. We are talking about tatoos. I feel it's a fair comparison, but ah well. By the way, you may notice a new thread in this folder. ; ) quote: Please see my post above and I never said we are not living in the world - kindly do not say I said things I did not say. I didn't say you said we aren't living in the world. I was responding to your statement that Christians shouldn't be socially acceptable, something I do not believe is Scriptural. quote: ? I was saying that, for the individual Christian, there's not a need for a "THOU SHALT NOT" statement from God - it can come down to personal conviction from the Holy Spirit. However, in order to say that something is wrong for every single Christian, I believe a "THOU SHALT NOT" is required. quote: You cannot take a chapter and quote from that without taking into context the rest of the book - the reason Romans was written in the first place - and further, the whole rest of the Bible. As I think you know? Obviously. However, I do not feel I am taking Romans 14 out of context. If you feel I am, please explain how. : )

solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 3:06:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: phosadaud quote: ORIGINAL: solarflare quote: Let's see. I love ice cream. Am I showing love to others if I go ahead and buy that Ben & Jerry's? This seems kind of amoral. Am I being selfish? Absolutely. I love ice cream. I'm not helping anyone by buying & eating it. Does that mean I am being sinful because I have ice cream in my freezer? You are kidding, right? I don't know whether to laugh or cry...... I am being totally serious. I am using your logic to show why your logic doesn't make sense and doesn't work. What's the difference? You find it absurd because it's not tradition for this to be considered sinful, but it is "tradition" to frown on tattoos. I am trying to challenge you to see past tradition and see what Scripture REALLY says and REALLY DOESN'T say. The fact is that I could easily apply everything you are arguing to my ice cream argument and tell folks ice cream is sinful. I could drag out verses on gluttony. I could show how there are "better", more spiritual things I could use my money for. I could show how buying ice cream doesn't bring any glory to God or help my neighbor or show that I am a Christian (after all, non-Christians buy ice cream). I could argue that it makes me look like the world because the world loves ice cream and I'm following the world. I could argue every single thing you are arguing. So what's the difference? Actually, I did not make up my post. The above is what I found in commentaries (on this site) re Leviticus. go and see for yourself. I would not presume to think I knew more that a Bible commentary that is respected and has been around for more years than I have. If I am not sure about something, I study it - I use commentaries - more than one - I read - I cross reference in the Bible - also look at context in what something is written - that is the accepted way of reaching a conclusion re what Scripture actually says - The NT teaches that ALL scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof and for correction, for training in righteousness NOT just the NT. II Tim, 3:16 Do a study of the word righteousness - you will find it has alot to do with God's holiness. You must read and study the whole Bible - not just parts of it. Based on those things, I come to the conclusion that we are better off without tatoos. I do not think they are appropriate for Christiains. That, is my opinion. Thanks

solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 4:10:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrFribbles quote: Let's keep that for another thread. We are talking about tatoos. I feel it's a fair comparison, but ah well. By the way, you may notice a new thread in this folder. ; ) Should be interesting....... quote: Please see my post above and I never said we are not living in the world - kindly do not say I said things I did not say. I didn't say you said we aren't living in the world. I was responding to your statement that Christians shouldn't be socially acceptable, something I do not believe is Scriptural. Sorry, let me clarify. If you or someone else would see me (in passing) I would be considered normal. Nothing weird going on with how I look. I am referring to doing things that the non-believing world does in order to be popular or fit in. ie: immoral behavior. That, is VERY socially acceptable. I did not mean we should look weird or draw attention to ourselves. If you knew me, you would laugh real good at that. We all have choices to make - every day - I think we need to be on guard against assimilation into the world system - thinking like the world and so on. I hope that is clearer. quote: ? I was saying that, for the individual Christian, there's not a need for a "THOU SHALT NOT" statement from God - it can come down to personal conviction from the Holy Spirit. However, in order to say that something is wrong for every single Christian, I believe a "THOU SHALT NOT" is required. I do not see where we are saying things so different here - I agree with personal conviction - the OP asked for our opinions - I offered mine and gave scripture as to how I came to that opionion. It is very evident that another can take the same scripture and achieve a completely different conclusion. I find that alarming, but there you have it. quote: You cannot take a chapter and quote from that without taking into context the rest of the book - the reason Romans was written in the first place - and further, the whole rest of the Bible. As I think you know? Obviously. However, I do not feel I am taking Romans 14 out of context. If you feel I am, please explain how. : ) Not quite what I said - I said one should take into context the entire book and not just one chapter. Romans is a letter - one chapter is only one part of that letter.

MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 5:06:18 PM)
quote: If you or someone else would see me (in passing) I would be considered normal. Nothing weird going on with how I look. I am referring to doing things that the non-believing world does in order to be popular or fit in. ie: immoral behavior. That, is VERY socially acceptable. I did not mean we should look weird or draw attention to ourselves. If you knew me, you would laugh real good at that. We all have choices to make - every day - I think we need to be on guard against assimilation into the world system - thinking like the world and so on. I hope that is clearer. See, I just don't see physical appearance being important in God's eyes. I don't think He looks at certain fashions and declares them "worldly" (except, of course, one's that would be explicitly unbiblical - if a shirt has a slogan on it that degrades God, then of course He wouldn't be happy with it); rather, I think He looks at our heart attitudes and actions. A friend of mine got "It Is For Freedom Which Christ Set Us Free" tattooed on his wrists in Greek. To me, that would present a great witnessing opportunity, since he has little choice to hide those markings, and I'm sure having Greek writing will prompt some people to ask, "Hey, what language is that, and what does it mean?" How is that doing something to "fit in" with the world?

PaleHawkWoman -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 5:47:43 PM)
My people wore ear plugs, nose rings, and were tattooed, and we have never been pagan- we always worshipped the Creator of the Universe. Our tattoos had nothing to do with the dead but were ID's telling anyone you met your people, clan and bloodline, your clan town, what honors you have received, and your status within your tribe. Earplugs and nose rings were strictly ornamental. I wear different kinds of earrings in my pierced ears and prefer the dangly kind. I've tried on a few of my mother's clip earrings but they hurt my ear lobes after a few minutes. I haven't noticed any pagans thinking I'm one of them because of my earrings. When they do mistake me for one of them it's because they see I'm Native and automatically assume- based upon popular stereotypes and general ignorance- that I worship many gods and spirits. When I explain traditional Cherokee beliefs, they have a hard time accepting that my people are traditionally monotheists and even try to intimate that I don't know what I'm talking about. Pierced ears are the norm even in the church, so I don't see why this is even an issue. There's a lady who goes to my mom's church who wears a rather large jeweled gold cross necklace with matching pierced earrings, and numerous bracelets and rings. While it might be a bit over the top or on the tacky side, it certainly can't be construed as "pagan". This lady also has several christian-themed bumperstickers on her car including one that says "Honk if you love Jesus!". I can attest that most of the people who are honking do so not because they love Jesus but because while she is a lovely person she is also a terrible driver. She's usually so busy praising God in the car, even taking her hands off the wheel and closing her eyes to pray or give thanks that she isn't watching the road and has no discernment for whatever is going on around her. I guess she's driving on blind faith but she sure can scare even the most ardent atheist into praying.

phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 6:46:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solarflare quote: ORIGINAL: phosadaud quote: ORIGINAL: solarflare quote: Let's see. I love ice cream. Am I showing love to others if I go ahead and buy that Ben & Jerry's? This seems kind of amoral. Am I being selfish? Absolutely. I love ice cream. I'm not helping anyone by buying & eating it. Does that mean I am being sinful because I have ice cream in my freezer? You are kidding, right? I don't know whether to laugh or cry...... I am being totally serious. I am using your logic to show why your logic doesn't make sense and doesn't work. What's the difference? You find it absurd because it's not tradition for this to be considered sinful, but it is "tradition" to frown on tattoos. I am trying to challenge you to see past tradition and see what Scripture REALLY says and REALLY DOESN'T say. The fact is that I could easily apply everything you are arguing to my ice cream argument and tell folks ice cream is sinful. I could drag out verses on gluttony. I could show how there are "better", more spiritual things I could use my money for. I could show how buying ice cream doesn't bring any glory to God or help my neighbor or show that I am a Christian (after all, non-Christians buy ice cream). I could argue that it makes me look like the world because the world loves ice cream and I'm following the world. I could argue every single thing you are arguing. So what's the difference? Actually, I did not make up my post. The above is what I found in commentaries (on this site) re Leviticus. go and see for yourself. I would not presume to think I knew more that a Bible commentary that is respected and has been around for more years than I have. If I am not sure about something, I study it - I use commentaries - more than one - I read - I cross reference in the Bible - also look at context in what something is written - that is the accepted way of reaching a conclusion re what Scripture actually says - The NT teaches that ALL scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof and for correction, for training in righteousness NOT just the NT. II Tim, 3:16 Do a study of the word righteousness - you will find it has alot to do with God's holiness. You must read and study the whole Bible - not just parts of it. Based on those things, I come to the conclusion that we are better off without tatoos. I do not think they are appropriate for Christiains. That, is my opinion. Thanks #1 Commentaries should never be given more authority than Scripture alone. Even the best commentaries can come to wrong conclusions and I've never seen 2 commentaries that agree on everything so don't assume that if it's in a commentary, it must be right. I'm not saying there isn't a place for commentary, but I believe we are to be Bereans and weigh ALL things against Scripture - and that includes sermons to commentaries. #2 I do read and study the whole Bible which is I am trying to challenge the assertion that tattoos are wrong. I came to that conclusion based on the Bible as a whole. #3 The purpose of a forum is to discuss and such our beliefs. That's why I am posting what I'm posting - to discuss. My challenge was a serious question of you as I am not following your logic.

dianetavegia -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 7:24:48 PM)
Tyler, Do think long and hard about the large tattoo. That's something you really cannot easily have removed. You're considering it at age 18. What if you marry a nice gal ten years after that and she really dislikes you having a tribute to your mom on your back? A smaller tat would suffice, would it not? Also, our 31 year old son discovered that piercings cause people to look at you as a non professional person, meaning you'll get a job at Burger King but not in corporate America. Don't overstretch those ear lobes if you ever expect to get a great job to support your future family. Our son removed his lip piercings and found it quite easy to get his foot in doors that had been firmly shut previously.

solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 7:31:21 PM)
quote: #1 Commentaries should never be given more authority than Scripture alone. Even the best commentaries can come to wrong conclusions and I've never seen 2 commentaries that agree on everything so don't assume that if it's in a commentary, it must be right. I'm not saying there isn't a place for commentary, but I believe we are to be Bereans and weigh ALL things against Scripture - and that includes sermons to commentaries. Hi - thanks for getting back to me. Please do not focus on my use of commentaries - if you would kindly reread my post - I list commentaries as only one of several sources, the Bible of course being the most important. No offense, but I do not think you are wiser than those whose study of the Bible is a life time pursuit - as neither am I. Very seriously, I do not follow your logic - I am not playing tennis here - I really truly can't imagine why on earth you would bring your ice cream example into a serious discussion. I am not trying to be insulting. I just find your logic to be seriously flawed. Anyway, I notice that this thread is turning into a discussion on things other than tatoos, and I am not getting into that. Someone already opened up a new thread to discuss those things. We have very different beliefs - and according to each of us, we both read and study our Bibles. I believe that the chapter in Lev is both figurative and literal. Figurative with regards to mixing things - literal with regards to our not mixing with the world - as I find this same teaching in the NT, I will stick with that. You are under no obligation to follow suit. If you really want to continue the discussion - that's fine, but I am not here this week-end and notl until Tues. - family time. Thanks - have a good week-end.

solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 7:35:09 PM)
quote: See, I just don't see physical appearance being important in God's eyes. Not more than the heart - but outward appearance often shows what is going on inside - ie. rebellion etc. Why do you think everyone has something to say on this topic and feels so strongly about it? Anyway -- off for the week end - enjoy - till next week -[sm=wave.gif]

phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 7:57:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solarflare Hi - thanks for getting back to me. Please do not focus on my use of commentaries - if you would kindly reread my post - I list commentaries as only one of several sources, the Bible of course being the most important. No offense, but I do not think you are wiser than those whose study of the Bible is a life time pursuit - as neither am I. I never said I was wiser. However, just because someone has studied the Bible all their life, does not mean they will always be correct. Which is why we (all) are called to be Bereans. That was my point. quote: Very seriously, I do not follow your logic - I am not playing tennis here - I really truly can't imagine why on earth you would bring your ice cream example into a serious discussion. I am not trying to be insulting. I just find your logic to be seriously flawed. Let me break it down. First - do you understand that I am using a metaphor? Your logic (and the logic of those who have argued what you are arguing in this and other threads like it): quote: When addressing a gray area - or one that engenders at least two very different opinions - you must finally ask yourself the following: Is my decision in keeping with Jesus instruction to "Love God with all my heart and all mind and all my soul?" Tattoo - This is irrelevant Ice cream - This is irrelevant Am I showing love to others if I go ahead and do this? (whatever it may be) Tattoo - Probably not, but it's irrelevant as well. Ice cream - Probably not, but it's irrelevant as well. So, with freedom also comes responsibility - which is certainly indicated in Romans chapter 14. You have freedom to do what you think is right - but, as a Christian, your decisions should not be from selfish motives. Tattoo - I guess since you don't need to do it, it could be considered selfish Ice cream - Entirely selfish. The only reason to eat it is for pure personal enjoyment. Is it a waste of money - should I be spending money on "better" things that are more generous and less selfish? Tattoo - You don't need to do it to survive and most likely you aren't helping anyone by doing it. Ice cream - You don't it to survive and you aren't helping anyone by spending money on it. Does it bring glory to God? Tattoo - It could, depending on what the tattoo is but generally no. Ice cream - No Does it show that I am a Christian? Tattoo - Not usually although a religious tattoo could proclaim your faith. Ice cream - No Does is make me blend in with the "world" (if you think the world is a physical appearance type of thing? Tattoo - Well, all kinds of people get them so it certainly doesn't set you apart. Ice cream - All kinds of folks eat ice cream, so it certainly doesn't set you apart. Etc, etc, etc. So again, why is a tattoo sinful but ice cream isn't? quote: I believe that the chapter in Lev is both figurative and literal. Figurative with regards to mixing things - literal with regards to our not mixing with the world - as I find this same teaching in the NT, I will stick with that. That's fine, but there are many verses in there. Note the verse just prior to the tattoo verse: 27 "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." It's a simple question. If you believe we are obligated to follow verse 28, why are we not obligated to follow verse 27? I'm not being snarky, I just don't understand how you (and others) are determing which ones to follow and which ones not to.

phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 8:00:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: solarflare quote: See, I just don't see physical appearance being important in God's eyes. Not more than the heart - but outward appearance often shows what is going on inside - ie. rebellion etc. Why do you think everyone has something to say on this topic and feels so strongly about it? And you can tell the condition of someone's heart by their outward appearance? Where is that in Scripture? As far as "strong feelings", I have no personal stake in this. I don't even like tattoos, don't have one, don't want one, etc.

tracydolls -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 8:17:26 PM)
quote: Hello i am 17 years old and recently began to get back to christianity after spending 1 year as an atheist and 2 years as a buddhist. I have 2 questions that i would like to get some opinions on. I believe in the bible it says your body is your temple and that we are not supposed to alter it. About 2 and a half years ago (when i didnt believe in god) i had both my ears pierced and gauged to size 4(which is pretty big) Is this wrong..and what should i do(they wont grow shut if i do take them out) my second question is when i turn 18 i would love a tattoo...a backpiece of my mother who died 5 years ago...should i go through with this or is this wrong too. thank you for you time --norny Norny, You there? Can you please explain "a backpiece of my mother" ? First can I give you this? Download it and look around, get different translations. http://www.e-sword.net/ Then you can find out for yourself about tattoo's in the Bible. I suggest starting there. I always struggle with what if the Bible says straight out- THOU shall not or DO not do. I would have to research tattoo's myself before I could answer honestly so until then.[:D]

MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 10:16:13 PM)
quote: Not more than the heart - but outward appearance often shows what is going on inside - ie. rebellion etc. And if this was back in the days when the only people who got tattoos were rebels and ne'er-do-wells (if that was ever really true - I'm much to young to know!), you'd be spot on. But the fact is, they have become accepted in today's society as something people do. They are not signs of inward rebellion, unless the tattoo is depicting something rebellious in and of itself.

lpt -> RE: I need some opinions (6/28/2008 11:00:05 AM)
Norny -- while your body is of some importance, the Lord is more concerned about your heart. I encourage you to dedicate your heart to Christ first and foremost; what you do with your body will follow. I'd love to hear your "story" -- how you came to Christ -- some day.

lpt -> RE: I need some opinions (6/28/2008 11:07:23 AM)
quote: And you can tell the condition of someone's heart by their outward appearance? Where is that in Scripture? You can't definitively say anything about the state of someone's heart by merely evaluating them with your eyes. But James 2:18 does indicate that you can get a sense of their heart by their outward behavior.

makarizo -> RE: I need some opinions (6/28/2008 11:33:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ezra Norny: Piercings and tatoos are forbidden to God's people, you forgot to say who are under the law.

thedivabrat -> RE: I need some opinions (6/29/2008 8:07:39 PM)
There are as many threads about tattoos here as opinions about them[sm=rollingeyes.gif]

faroukfarouk -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 2:15:36 AM)
phosadaud quote: And you can tell the condition of someone's heart by their outward appearance? Where is that in Scripture? As far as "strong feelings", I have no personal stake in this. I don't even like tattoos, don't have one, don't want one, etc. Re. tattoos, do you think that a faith related tattoo can serve as an effective conversation-starter?

stellaluna -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 10:17:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tracydolls Can you please explain "a backpiece of my mother" ? A back piece is a tattoo that covers your entire back.

solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 11:34:26 AM)
quote: The teachings of the New Testament. And if it's not explicitly taught there, then it is a matter of personal conviction led by the Holy Spirit. If you have another interpretation of Romans 14, I'd be interested in hearing it. That is not correct - the OT moral law still applies - the only law done away with was the ceremonial law - Christ's fullfilled those requirements with his death - the moral law of God is still in effect: Which of the 10 commandments shall we no longer apply? Thou shalt have no other gods before me? Thou shalt not kill? MORAL AND CEREMONIAL LAW ARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS So, no, it is not just the NT that we take instruction from. That is a very dangerous position and results in so much of the confusion that is in churches today. People need to STUDY the OT - not throw it out

MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 11:47:51 AM)
quote: the OT moral law still applies - the only law done away with was the ceremonial law Unless I have missed something, I see no verse of Scripture suggesting this division in the Law. quote: Which of the 10 commandments shall we no longer apply? Since Jesus reaffirmed them, and indeed clarified them (or if not, Paul addresses them... For example, I don't think Jesus ever directly addresses stealing, but Paul does), I would say none of them. quote: People need to STUDY the OT - not throw it out Absolutely. However, studying and applying word-for-word are two different things.

solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 12:58:04 PM)
In the interest of misunderstanding being a reality, as people do not always see everything written and at times pick out one particular phrase at the expense of the intent of the whole, let me clairify. I do not believe that there is anything I can do to warrant my salvation. It is the gift of God - which I have accepted - Jesus alone has paid the penalty for my sins. There is nothing I can do to merit favor with God other than accept His Son as my Salvation. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law - it is done away with - all the sacrifices and ordinances - all are done away with - but the moral law of God is still in effect and should be written on our hearts and in our minds - to obey is better than sacrifice (OT) and what God had in mind from the beginning - to not obey (God as in the garden of Eden) is sin, which leads to separation from God. To say that the OT is no longer a valid frame of reference for any moral behavior is to undercut the entire message of the OT. Jesus said that not even the tiniest part of the law would be done away with until heaven and earth pass away. Matt 5:17 The prophets are not abolished, the law is not abolished - JESUS WORDS NOT MINE - until EVERYTHING is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. JESUS WORDS NOT MINE Matt 5:19 You have heard that it was said to the people long ago Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgement. But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment." Matt 5:21, 22b JESUS WORDS NOT MINE Does not sound to me like we are all free to make up our own minds and let our conscience be our guide. In fact, Jesus said that if you have the thought and intent in your heart - never mind actually do it - you have as much as already done it. Guilty? I know I am. This, is even a sterner measure of 'law' then thou shalt not as Jesus is telling us how to judge our own hearts. Romans was written for a very specific purpose to the believers in Rome - Jews and Gentiles. Chapter 14 addresse specific problems these people were having - WITH CEREMONIAL LAW - NOT WHETHER OR NOT TO TATOO THEMSELVES OR PERHAPS GO OUT AND GET DRUNK OR LIE WITH ANOTHER MAN'S WIFE - To give a liberal non - specific interpretation is not true to the message intended. Romans 14 does not sanction unity in moral and doctrinal diversity. It addresses one aspect only - that of the ceremonial law - not the moral law. This causes sin to be the conclusion for those who do what they do not feel is right. ie eating meat offered up to idols - or perhaps in this day and age, eating pork. I'm fine with it, my Jewish friend may not be - in his/her presence, I will not eat pork and I can say this as it is an illustration from my own real life experience. Jesus addresses the intent of the heart - in Matt 5 - Romans 14 addresses the outward actions - not the inward heart intent - that, is the difference. Two separate things going on here, folks.

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