RE: I need some opinions (Full Version)

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faroukfarouk -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 2:18:34 PM)

Okay; let's think about the fact that the passage in Leviticus which says about not cutting for the dead in Leviticus, and the mention of marks on the body, also mentions about not trimming beards. Cutting for the dead I think refers to pagan necromancy; I'm not sure if faith related tattoos are in the same category; correct me if I'm wrong. But in terms of hermemeutic or interpretational frameworks, if even faith related tattoos are said to be unacceptable today, then how come the people who say that don't also say that we men all need also to wear bushy beards?

I do wonder about the context, frankly.



LBolt -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 2:49:09 PM)

quote:

By the way, for those who believe tattoos and such are wrong, I'm curious if you follow the verse before the tattoo one regarding cutting hair: Leviticus 19:27 "'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." Or what about these: vs 19 "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.


I was thinking about this verse as well...but most people believe that because it's OT and not mentioned in NT then it's O.K. There goes that Torah thing again. LOL



LBolt -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 2:51:54 PM)

Why not "wear" your faith by your actions and deeds...good conduct then instead of inking yourself up by tattoos. Just a thought[8|].



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 2:53:45 PM)

The bushy beards are not a moral issue - as neither are planting 2 diff kinds of seeds - or putting together 2 kinds of material - they are illustrative of God's desire for his people (in this case in the OT, the Israelites) to be separate from those who did not have a relationship with God.

Romans was not written to Christians in general in the known world at that time - it was written to the Christians in Rome - Jews and Gentiles - and chapter 14 is addressing a very specific problem they had because of the two groups. The problem was one of applying ceremonial law - THAT is why Paul addresses the issue of meat offered to idols. He does not address moral law, but rather ceremonial law - from the law of Moses - THAT is the law that was done away with by Jesus atonement - not the moral law. The morality of this chapter lies in offending your brother or sister in Christ, by not following ceremonial law no longer under effect for the believer. If a person uses chapter 14 to address moral situations they are making a mistake - it has nothing to do with the 10 commandments or any other moral application.

Christians are not free to follow or copy the world. What's the point in that? Free to sin? Paul covered that argument. God forbade tatoos in the OT - and a whole bunch of other things. Prostitution is still wrong, cutting yourself is still wrong and so is tatooing yourself. I am free to plant corn and beets in the same garden. I am free to wear clothes of separate materials. I am not free to copy what the world does when God forbids me to do it and rationalize doing so from a chapter in the book of Romans that was not even addressing moral questions.



spdrgrl.603 -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 3:04:08 PM)

your ear piercings are fine. women back then in the bible also had their noses peirced when they where engaged. tattoos i have three and i posted on "tattoos anyone" which answers your question. tattoos bottom line (i've been researching this from christians on both sides on whether its fine for a christian to have a tattoo for over a year) as long as the images are not evil (b/c they attack your soul and are against God), have heathen gods like Egyptians, or mourn for the dead, then yes tattoos are fine. i dont know whether a tattoo in memory of your mom would be mourning for her death. i thought of getting my grandfather on my left arm with "toots" (his name for me) underneath but haven't cuz its mourning his death. please look for my answer on "tattoos anyone?" under morality and ethics. also as someone who has been inked since i turned 18 (five going on six years) and recovering from my first tattoo infection i STRONGLY recommend you research the Universal Precaution, blood bourne passenges, etc. standards in a tattoo shop from setting up to inking so you can spot a red flag that will endanger your health. their are some valuable links underneath that I STRONGLY ADVISE anyone who never had a tattoo and is considering one to read. good luck!

FACT: christians back after Jesus died tattooed crosses on their wrists to say the wanted a christian burial and i have to look it up in the bible again but their was a saint who had a christian tattoo on his thigh.

https://www.msu.edu/~krcmari1/individual/get_process.html

http://www.emedicine.com/derm/topic512.htm#section~TypesofReactions

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/childhoodinfections/a/staph_infection.htm

http://www.tattooinfection.net/infection.html



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 3:08:54 PM)

If 1000 Christians do something does that make what God said about not doing it right? Tatoos are not a witness for Christ - having scripture tatooed on you does not make it right. God said DO NOT and He meant it.



Qtman -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 3:27:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

If 1000 Christians do something does that make what God said about not doing it right? Tatoos are not a witness for Christ - having scripture tatooed on you does not make it right. God said DO NOT and He meant it.


Actually God did not say do not get a tattoo. The word tattoo does not show up except in the english translations of the Bible. In the original text the word that has been translated to tattoo in the english version meant to cut.



phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 3:34:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

The bushy beards are not a moral issue - as neither are planting 2 diff kinds of seeds - or putting together 2 kinds of material - they are illustrative of God's desire for his people (in this case in the OT, the Israelites) to be separate from those who did not have a relationship with God.


Why do you believe tattoos are a moral issue but bushy beards and types of seeds, etc aren't?



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 3:38:56 PM)

quote:

Why do you believe tattoos are a moral issue but bushy beards and types of seeds, etc aren't?


Please read my post (page one at the bottom) I have covered it there.

The division of moral and ceremonial law is not my idea - the majority of Christians hold this to be true - you cannot interpret the NT without good knowledge and understanding of the OT - The OT was the only scripture Paul was referring to when he said that all of it was good for instruction in sound doctrine, reproof etc. There was as yet not NT



faroukfarouk -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 3:42:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LBolt

Why not "wear" your faith by your actions and deeds...good conduct then inking yourself up by tattoos. Just a thought[8|].


I have some considerable sympathy with that viewpoint.

I also wonder about the interpretation aspect: bushy beards etc.



phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 3:52:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

quote:

Why do you believe tattoos are a moral issue but bushy beards and types of seeds, etc aren't?


Please read my post (page one at the bottom) I have covered it there.


OK, let me rephrase this: Why do you believe that the prohibition against "tattoos" is not part of the law to keep Israel separate from the pagan nations around them?



Qtman -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 3:58:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

quote:

Why do you believe tattoos are a moral issue but bushy beards and types of seeds, etc aren't?


Please read my post (page one at the bottom) I have covered it there.


OK, let me rephrase this: Why do you believe that the prohibition against "tattoos" is not part of the law to keep Israel separate from the pagan nations around them?


As I posted earlier there is really no prohibition against tattoos as we know them. The Hebrew word used in the original text was "qa aqa" This word actually means to cut. It's probabll origin was from a word meaning to clip off. The native americans had a ritual where they would cut off fingers when a son died. It is assumed, because it is not known for certain, this was a pagan ritual. It was done to get the gods to look favorably on the spirit of the departed. The context of scripture lends to the fact God was telling the Isrealites not to practice the pagan religious rituals.



Norny -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 4:15:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dianetavegia

Tyler, Do think long and hard about the large tattoo. That's something you really cannot easily have removed. You're considering it at age 18. What if you marry a nice gal ten years after that and she really dislikes you having a tribute to your mom on your back? A smaller tat would suffice, would it not?

Also, our 31 year old son discovered that piercings cause people to look at you as a non professional person, meaning you'll get a job at Burger King but not in corporate America. Don't overstretch those ear lobes if you ever expect to get a great job to support your future family. Our son removed his lip piercings and found it quite easy to get his foot in doors that had been firmly shut previously.


Honestly if a girl is superficial enough to not like me because of my tatoo i wouldnt talk to her in the first place. and yea my ears are as big as they are getting because i do have plans for college and a professional career ahead and i know that having huge wholes in your ears will destroy oppertunities for me.



spdrgrl.603 -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 5:11:43 PM)

quote:

Please read my post (page one at the bottom) I have covered it there.


quote:

OK, let me rephrase this: Why do you believe that the prohibition against "tattoos" is not part of the law to keep Israel separate from the pagan nations around them?


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

If 1000 Christians do something does that make what God said about not doing it right? Tatoos are not a witness for Christ - having scripture tatooed on you does not make it right. God said DO NOT and He meant it.


non-tattooed christians LOOOOOVVVVVE using the word "cut" to imply tattoo. reasearch solarflare. back then pagans cut themselves to LEAK BLOOD (like what depressed teenagers do with razors) not to make pictures on their skin. also back in Corinthians 6:19-20 “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.” Non- tattooed Christians don’t hesitate to make the connection to tattoos and avoid seeing it in its full context. There was a new community of Christians developing in Corinth and the new Christians were of pagan origin. St. Paul was warning them of the dangerous practices of their pagan neighbors who used ritual prostitutes to celebrate the Greek Goddess of Love, Aphrodite. During St. Paul’s time, ritual prostitutes were a common practice that had to be abolished. St. Paul wrote to Corinthians stating that we belong to God, brought about through His son Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, and the deadly sin of subjecting to false Gods through ritual prostitutes. Sexual immorality is a sin against the body which houses the Holy Spirit and is a direct sin against God.



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 5:15:54 PM)

quote:

non-tattooed christians LOOOOOVVVVVE using the word "cut" to imply tattoo


And you know that about all non-tattooed Christians for a fact? You have spoken to each and every one and that is your conclusion?

We were discussing Romans 14 - not the dangers of prostitues in a pagan society - maybe you should actually read some of the posts - your post is waaaay off topic. Thanks



Qtman -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 5:16:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spdrgrl.603

Please read my post (page one at the bottom) I have covered it there.


quote:

OK, let me rephrase this: Why do you believe that the prohibition against "tattoos" is not part of the law to keep Israel separate from the pagan nations around them?


quote:

As I posted earlier there is really no prohibition against tattoos as we know them. The Hebrew word used in the original text was "qa aqa" This word actually means to cut. It's probabll origin was from a word meaning to clip off. The native americans had a ritual where they would cut off fingers when a son died. It is assumed, because it is not known for certain, this was a pagan ritual. It was done to get the gods to look favorably on the spirit of the departed. The context of scripture lends to the fact God was telling the Isrealites not to practice the pagan religious rituals.


quote:

non-tattooed christians LOOOOOVVVVVE using the word "cut" to imply tattoo. reasearch honey back the pagans cut themselves to LEAK BLOOD not for art. also back in Corinthians 6:19-20 “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.” Non- tattooed Christians don’t hesitate to make the connection to tattoos and avoid seeing it in its full context. There was a new community of Christians developing in Corinth and the new Christians were of pagan origin. St. Paul was warning them of the dangerous practices of their pagan neighbors who used ritual prostitutes to celebrate the Greek Goddess of Love, Aphrodite. During St. Paul’s time, ritual prostitutes were a common practice that had to be abolished. St. Paul wrote to Corinthians stating that we belong to God, brought about through His son Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, and the deadly sin of subjecting to false Gods through ritual prostitutes. Sexual immorality is a sin against the body which houses the Holy Spirit and is a direct sin against God.


I don't know who you are responding to here. BTW I am a non-tattooed Christian. I am also a Christian that does not give a word for word reading of an english speaking Bible the time of day. There are to many cases I have found where the original language was simply translated wrong. Lev. 19:27 is one of those cases. I think we are on the same side even if I do not have a tattoo.



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 5:18:49 PM)

quote:

Why do you believe that the prohibition against "tattoos" is not part of the law to keep Israel separate from the pagan nations around them?



That is not at all what I said. I said that it was not part of the ceremonial law - Actually, God wanted them so separate, that He told them to be Holy because He is holy - which I said in my post that I referred to. Please, I am happy to respond to questions - but at least read the post and ask about that - not what you think I said - but what I really said.

Thanks - it just makes conversation so much easier [:)]



spdrgrl.603 -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 5:24:08 PM)

not all non-tattooed christians but a good hunkin majority dont hesitate to pass judgement on someone who's different. like anybody. human nature is sadly to be judgemental. HOWEVER IN COLLEGE FELLOWSHIP A NON-TATTOOED CHRISTIAN COMPLEMENTED MY JESUS TATTOOS AND ASK ME WHICH ONE WAS MY FAVORITE. and then we started talking. i'm not trying to say all non-tattooed christian are like that but by the majority of the posts can you blame me?



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 5:33:23 PM)

quote:

not all non-tattooed christians but a good hunkin majority dont hesitate to pass judgement on someone who's different. like anybody. human nature is sadly to be judgemental. HOWEVER IN COLLEGE FELLOWSHIP A NON-TATTOOED CHRISTIAN COMPLEMENTED MY JESUS TATTOOS AND ASK ME WHICH ONE WAS MY FAVORITE. and then we started talking. i'm not trying to say all non-tattooed christian are like that but by the majority of the posts can you blame me?



Different is not what bothers me - sweeping generalizations bother me.
I am considered different myself - I am not a crowd pleaser and I do not do things because someone else does them. Thanks for taking the time to answer and clarify. As far as blaming you goes? I do not 'blame' - but best not to lump everyone together - there are always exceptions [;)]



spdrgrl.603 -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 5:43:45 PM)

key buddy read my post above you cuz ur response tells me you didn't fully read it but skimmed. i said i didn't mean to lump all non-tattooed christians into one catagory but just stated tattooed or not human nature in general is to be judgemental. i even mention my conversation with a friend who is a much more conservative christian than i am. again please read what i said and my conversation with him before you paint me as some wicked witch trying to clump groups together or "generalizing" :

HOWEVER IN COLLEGE FELLOWSHIP A NON-TATTOOED CHRISTIAN COMPLEMENTED MY JESUS TATTOOS AND ASK ME WHICH ONE WAS MY FAVORITE. and then we started talking. i'm not trying to say all non-tattooed christian are like that but by the majority of the posts can you blame me?



thedivabrat -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 8:35:36 PM)

There are some differences of opinion and interpretation that are not going to be resolved this side of heaven. To tattoo or not to tattoo is probably one of them. This is not a salvation issue so in the end we may have to agree to disagree and when we see Jesus we can talk to Him about it. The discussion is interesting tho.



phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 8:38:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

quote:

Why do you believe that the prohibition against "tattoos" is not part of the law to keep Israel separate from the pagan nations around them?



That is not at all what I said. I said that it was not part of the ceremonial law - Actually, God wanted them so separate, that He told them to be Holy because He is holy - which I said in my post that I referred to. Please, I am happy to respond to questions - but at least read the post and ask about that - not what you think I said - but what I really said.

Thanks - it just makes conversation so much easier [:)]


OK, I reread all your posts and I am understanding what you are saying - you are not understanding what I am asking. So let me break it down even more and see if this helps:

You believe that there are 2 types of laws in the OT - ceremonial which was for Israel AND moral which is for everyone. You put things like beards and wearing clothes made of 2 fibers into the ceremonial law and say that as those are ceremonial and concerning Israel, we do not need to abide by those laws. In the moral law, you put tattoos in with stuff like adultery and say that we do need to abide by these laws.

What I am asking is: Why do you believe that tattoos belong in the moral law and not the ceremonial law?

For the record: I believe that we must study and know the OT. I believe that the moral laws of the OT are laws intended to show us how to love God and love one another and therefore are relevant today although we do not earn our salvation through them, they are simply the right things to do. I don't believe the right thing to do changed with Jesus. Jesus and the Apostles affirmed these laws in the NT. We are not under the penalty or "yoke" of those laws, but if we love Jesus, we will want to do as He commands and therefore want to love our neighbors and Him by following the way He set before to show that love (morality).

What I disagree with you on, is the idea that tattoos are a moral law and therefore Christians should steer clear of them. The fact is, tattoos in many cultures - including our own, have nothing to do with pagan practices and getting a tattoo has zero to do with whether or not you are loving your neighbor or loving God. Hence, they are not prohibited for the Gentile believer any more than eating meat sacrificed to idols is or getting circumcised.



thedivabrat -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 8:48:37 PM)

Ok this may be unwise of me but here goes--I have a tattoo--obviously I do not think it is wrong or sinful to have one. But I do keep it covered in public because I know that some people are offended by them--and because I do try to be thoughtful and loving of others, all others not just believers, I don't show it publicly.



LBolt -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 9:32:39 PM)

Farouk, I recently edited my post.



MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/30/2008 9:51:07 PM)

quote:

Why not "wear" your faith by your actions and deeds...good conduct then instead of inking yourself up by tattoos.


Or, ya' know, both. If someone sees you doing a good deed but doesn't speak to you about it, they might just assume you're doing good for good's sake. But if you have an outward sign of your faith, then they will know you are doing good for God's sake.



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