I need some opinions (Full Version)

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Norny -> I need some opinions (6/25/2008 12:46:00 AM)

Hello i am 17 years old and recently began to get back to christianity after spending 1 year as an atheist and 2 years as a buddhist. I have 2 questions that i would like to get some opinions on. I believe in the bible it says your body is your temple and that we are not supposed to alter it. About 2 and a half years ago (when i didnt believe in god) i had both my ears pierced and gauged to size 4(which is pretty big) Is this wrong..and what should i do(they wont grow shut if i do take them out) my second question is when i turn 18 i would love a tattoo...a backpiece of my mother who died 5 years ago...should i go through with this or is this wrong too.

thank you for you time

--norny



MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 1:44:00 AM)

quote:

I believe in the bible it says your body is your temple and that we are not supposed to alter it.


You're half right - it does say that, but the conclusion that we're not supposed to alter it is misunderstanding the passage where that is taught. It is found in 1st Corinthians 6:19, and if you look at the verses around it, you'll see that it is talking about sleeping with prostitutes, not getting piercings or tattoos!
The simple fact of the matter is, there is no biblical command either way about piercings or tattoos. It's a matter of personal conviction. What that means is, some Christians feel it is wrong to get piercings are tattoos, and so for them, it is wrong. But other Christians do not feel it is wrong, and so for them, it is OK. That is how God works in areas He chose to not address directly in Scripture. Romans 14 is a great example of this. So, as long as you don't feel it is a sin, then you're OK.
I think it's great that you came on here to ask about this! It shows you're interested in doing what pleases God more than pleasing yourself, and that's fantastic! I hope my answer helped.



Ezra -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 2:45:01 AM)

Norny:

You do not have to rely on human opinions for guidance in this matter. The Bible is quite clear. Your body is indeed the temple of the Holy Spirit. Piercings and tatoos are forbidden to God's people, since they are practiced by heathens. Since you have now turned to Christ, shun such practices.



car2ner -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 8:06:13 AM)

well, I don't know if tatoos and piercings are prohibited. Scriptures have to be taken in light of the culture at the time as well as the underlying truth.

In our culture, large ear holes and tattoos will make you look less professional when you go job hunting. There is a thread for tattoos if you want further discussion of that issue.



MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 11:20:11 AM)

quote:

Piercings and tatoos are forbidden to God's people, since they are practiced by heathens.


Maybe if we were still living under the Old Testament law in Leviticus. Thankfully, we are not. Tattoos and piercings are not forbidden for the Christian. Now, given your opinion on them, Ezra, I would say they would be forbidden for you, as you are clearly convicted against them. However, not all Christians feel that way, and considering the lack of clear mandate against them, for the Christian, you should not hold other believers to your personal conviction.



stellaluna -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 11:24:15 AM)

Actually, if you gauged up properly, they should close up. 4 isn't that big.



saraimay75 -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 1:08:13 PM)

Sigh...yet another misunderstood legalistic reason for why I and many others are sinners without even trying.[sm=shakinghead.gif]



DougHorton -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 2:29:23 PM)

There is no Biblical teaching on piercings or tattoos.

We cannot avoid things because they are practiced by heathens. Heathens eat. Heathens drive cars. Heathens hold jobs. Heathens wear clothes.

In the Middle East, Christians get tattoos as a witness of their faith. If you have a cross tattooed on the back of your hand, you will have a hard time pretending to be a Muslim and avoiding persecution. The easy way would be not to get the tattoo and blend into society.

I had my daughter's ears pierced when she was 3 months old. It was no big deal and she is now a fine Christian lady. Don't let legalists put a bunch of man made laws on you. There are plenty of God-given laws already, and they are meant to drive us to Christ, not make us measure up.



WesP -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 2:48:22 PM)

quote:

I need some opinions


Welcome, Norny!

You have come to the right place. For 15 people you will get 20 opinions! [;)]

Seriously, this is something you will have to determine with the help of God. This is evidenced by the preceding posts. You have 2 sides and no closure. Pray and God bless.



phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/25/2008 9:36:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

Norny:

You do not have to rely on human opinions for guidance in this matter. The Bible is quite clear. Your body is indeed the temple of the Holy Spirit. Piercings and tatoos are forbidden to God's people, since they are practiced by heathens. Since you have now turned to Christ, shun such practices.


In Bible times, those were things that pagans did hence the prohibition AT THE TIME to keep God's people (the Jews) separate from the pagans around them. Doing those things was identifying and worshipping pagan things.

Piercings and tattoos do not have the same relevance today (well, unless you tattoo devil horns on your head or something bizarre like that). They are not "pagan" or "heathen" - they are simply cultural fashion that has nothing to do with pagan worship or pagan gods. Hence, there is no prohibition today.

Note the NT. Many of the dietary laws and such had to do with God's people staying separate from pagan cultures around Israel. For instance: not boiling meat in it's mother's milk (Exodus 23:19). The Apostles made it quite clear (and decided at the Jerusalem Council - Acts 15) that the Gentile believers are not bound by those laws.

By the way, for those who believe tattoos and such are wrong, I'm curious if you follow the verse before the tattoo one regarding cutting hair: Leviticus 19:27 "'Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." Or what about these: vs 19 "'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/26/2008 6:37:49 PM)

quote:

In Bible times, those were things that pagans did


Well, what times are we in now, non-Bible times?

Things that p a g a n s did.........hmmmmm

They are not "pagan" or "heathen" - they are simply cultural fashion that has nothing to do with pagan worship or pagan gods.


Yeah, I don't think you really want to get into that one. BTW, the bad pagans were tatooing themselves in a cultural fashion back then too.
Some things never change.



Bluethread -> RE: I need some opinions (6/26/2008 7:27:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

Piercings and tatoos are forbidden to God's people, since they are practiced by heathens.


Maybe if we were still living under the Old Testament law in Leviticus. Thankfully, we are not. Tattoos and piercings are not forbidden for the Christian. Now, given your opinion on them, Ezra, I would say they would be forbidden for you, as you are clearly convicted against them. However, not all Christians feel that way, and considering the lack of clear mandate against them, for the Christian, you should not hold other believers to your personal conviction.


Le 19:28
"'Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.

If this is a matter of personnal conscience simply because it is in the "old testiment", then there isn't much that would not be just a matter of conscience. This did not work well during the time of the judges, when everyone did what was right in their own eyes. Is this just a matter of how people acted in olden times and we are much more sophisticated now, so that won't happen to us?

I'm not trying to start a discussion on keeping the law, but I can't let a morality based on conscience and feelings go unchallenged. On what basis is one to gauge what is and is not moral? For a person in the OP's situation, this might be more valuable than just saying, If it doesn't bother you, then don't worry about it.



Norny -> RE: I need some opinions (6/26/2008 7:32:23 PM)

thanks a bunch guys...i got what i wanted..honestly i dont think they are wrong if you do them for the wrong reasons...
-----------------
quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

Actually, if you gauged up properly, they should close up. 4 isn't that big.


for the record i dont think i gauged even close to properly i went from size 12 to 4 in about 6-8 months



MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/26/2008 7:41:44 PM)

quote:

On what basis is one to gauge what is and is not moral?


The teachings of the New Testament. And if it's not explicitly taught there, then it is a matter of personal conviction led by the Holy Spirit. If you have another interpretation of Romans 14, I'd be interested in hearing it.



phosadaud -> RE: I need some opinions (6/26/2008 8:42:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solarflare

quote:

In Bible times, those were things that pagans did


Well, what times are we in now, non-Bible times?


I know you are more intelligent than that.

quote:

Things that p a g a n s did.........hmmmmm

They are not "pagan" or "heathen" - they are simply cultural fashion that has nothing to do with pagan worship or pagan gods.


Yeah, I don't think you really want to get into that one. BTW, the bad pagans were tatooing themselves in a cultural fashion back then too.
Some things never change.


Sorry. The pagans weren't doing those things back then for simple fashion - at least not the ones the Isrealites were influenced by. [;)]It was a part of pagan idolatry and beliefs. Unless you want to try and argue that Asherah poles were nothing more than decorations and God was forbidding the Israelites from them because pagans "decorated" that way (rather than forbidding it because it was part of pagan idolotry/belief).

And I see no one addressed the entire last half of my post. Interesting............



stellaluna -> RE: I need some opinions (6/26/2008 10:21:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norny

thanks a bunch guys...i got what i wanted..honestly i dont think they are wrong if you do them for the wrong reasons...
-----------------
quote:

ORIGINAL: stellaluna

Actually, if you gauged up properly, they should close up. 4 isn't that big.


for the record i dont think i gauged even close to properly i went from size 12 to 4 in about 6-8 months

Well....

you can go from 12 to 8 pretty easy. If you didn't blow out your lobes, you have a decent chance of them closing. If you really don't want the holes, take your jewelry out and massage your lobes with vitamin E. They'll probably shrink considerably.



Norny -> RE: I need some opinions (6/26/2008 11:42:06 PM)

thanks...great info to have stellaluna (one of my favorite childhood books btw) but i think i made my decision to keep them...thanks for all the input from everybody though its greatly appreciated



stellaluna -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 9:07:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norny
i think i made my decision to keep them...

Might as well. Mine will likely never close because they got pretty large, but I've shrunk back down to a 0g now and I'm happy with that. [:D]



miasma -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 12:27:42 PM)

quote:

I see no one addressed the entire last half of my post.



They never do. It's how most of these threads end. That same question you asked is brought up, and they all stop posting.

The only question I have is who pierced and stretched a 15 y.o. kid's ears.



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 12:34:03 PM)

By and large, people will do what they want to do - and find reasons/excuses for doing so. There are, I am sure, far worse things than tatooing oneself, including finding scripture to back up why it is not a prob. to do so. The history of tatoos is not a good one - I just really truly do not see a reason why a Christian would want one - because it is socially acceptable, is not a good reason.

Christians, should not be socially acceptable. I have less of a prob. with tatoos than with the myriad reasons Christians can come up with as to why they think it is OK for them to brand themselves with what was once a pagan practice - associated with the dead no less.


Hey, you want a tatoo? Go get one - but don't tell me that it is OK and God does not mind. I just don't believe that - there are many many things that are 'socially acceptable' in this age that are not acceptable for a follower of Christ.

I mean, does God really need to say DO NOT_________fill in the blank , in order for it to be wrong for a Christian?

If your conscience does not bother you - get one - My conscience does not bother me in the least to state I do not think it appropriate for a Christain to do so.



MrFribbles -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 12:53:43 PM)

quote:

The history of tatoos is not a good one


See also: Christmas and Easter.

quote:

Christians, should not be socially acceptable.


Do you have a Scriptural support for this? How is the world supposed to see the love of Christ if they can't stand seeing us?

quote:

I have less of a prob. with tatoos than with the myriad reasons Christians can come up with as to why they think it is OK for them to brand themselves with what was once a pagan practice - associated with the dead no less.


Something's origins do not make it wrong. The only person we see celebrating their birthday in Scripture is King Herod - should Christians not have birthday parties?

quote:

does God really need to say DO NOT_________fill in the blank , in order for it to be wrong for a Christian?


No, not for a Christian. But for every Christian? Yes, absolutely.

quote:

My conscience does not bother me in the least to state I do not think it appropriate for a Christain to do so.


How do you line this up with the teaching of Romans 14?



saraimay75 -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 1:16:18 PM)

quote:

Hey, you want a tatoo? Go get one - but don't tell me that it is OK and God does not mind. I just don't believe that - there are many many things that are 'socially acceptable' in this age that are not acceptable for a follower of Christ.


What about people who has tattos (sp?) BEFORE there were Christians???



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 1:20:22 PM)

quote:

And I see no one addressed the entire last half of my post. Interesting............



Verse one of chapter 19 has God telling Moses to speak to the entire assembly of Israel . What did God have to say them? "BE HOLY BECAUSE I, THE LORD YOUR GOD, AM HOLY."

Some of the precepts in this chapter are ceremonial - but certainly not all and for that reason should not be dismissed. Basically, the Israelites are being admonished to be separate from the world - ie: they are told not to MIX different things together - whether seed planted in a field, or two types of material, or two different animals.
You could say that these instructions were symbolic of Israel being separate from the world around them.

When addressing a gray area - or one that engenders at least two very different opinions - you must finally ask yourself the following:

Is my decision in keeping with Jesus instruction to "Love God with all my heart and all mind and all my soul?" Am I showing love to others if I go ahead and do this? (whatever it may be) So, with freedom also comes responsibility - which is certainly indicated in Romans chapter 14. You have freedom to do what you think is right - but, as a Christian, your decisions should not be from selfish motives.

Keep in mind also, that we are to be separate from the world in this century as well - nothing has changed there. We are still to be 'holy' -set apart for God I Peter 2: 11-17 Being 'free' does not mean free to do whatever we want. It is whatever is acceptable in God's revealed will to us - one of the main ideas behind Lev. 19, is separation from the world.

This is also a requirement for NT Christianity. So, basically, a person could and should ask the following before making their decision to do something held as controversial between Christians - "How should I, as a Christian, address the culture around me? How are my actions going to prove or disapprove to unbelievers around me, that I am a Christian?"

Please remember that Christians, so described as in NT times, did not have a social relationship with the world - they were persecuted, sometimes tortured and sometimes put to death for their beliefs.

If we have freedom, it is with a price - first of all the price paid by Christ Jesus on the cross for us and then, we ourselves, in remembrance of Him and out of love for God and respect for ourselves and other Christians and concern for unbelievers around us.



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 1:22:45 PM)

quote:

What about people who has tattos (sp?) BEFORE there were Christians???


I have no problem with that. Further, if they desire, they can have them removed. They don't have to - but they can.



solarflare -> RE: I need some opinions (6/27/2008 1:31:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

quote:

The history of tatoos is not a good one


See also: Christmas and Easter.

Let's keep that for another thread. We are talking about tatoos.
quote:

Christians, should not be socially acceptable.


Do you have a Scriptural support for this? How is the world supposed to see the love of Christ if they can't stand seeing us? Please see my post above and I never said we are not living in the world - kindly do not say I said things I did not say.
quote:

I have less of a prob. with tatoos than with the myriad reasons Christians can come up with as to why they think it is OK for them to brand themselves with what was once a pagan practice - associated with the dead no less.


Something's origins do not make it wrong. The only person we see celebrating their birthday in Scripture is King Herod - should Christians not have birthday parties? I disagree about origins. For alot of reasons -
in fact, that might be worthy of another thread.
quote:

does God really need to say DO NOT_________fill in the blank , in order for it to be wrong for a Christian?


No, not for a Christian. But for every Christian? Yes, absolutely. ?
quote:

My conscience does not bother me in the least to state I do not think it appropriate for a Christain to do so.


How do you line this up with the teaching of Romans 14?
You cannot take a chapter and quote from that without taking into context the rest of the book - the reason Romans was written in the first place - and further, the whole rest of the Bible. As I think you know?



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