Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (Full Version)

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pmilst -> Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (6/25/2008 3:34:00 AM)

Mark 13: 26-27 says, "And then shall they see the Son of Man comming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his might angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Does this happen during the tribulation, if so what part?

Is this the resurrection of the dead, or does it have rapture qualities of gathering those who are alive?

Does it deal with just the elect of physical Israel or does the term "elect"
have reference to Jewish and Gentile believers?

Does v. 30 of same chapter make these verses historically fulfilled and thus of no prophetic value?



bob97 -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (6/25/2008 8:46:37 AM)

In my opinion it speaks to rapture but it is a rapture which occurs at or near the very end. It occurs just prior to the Day of the Lord. The question is…how long is the Day of the Lord. Some say one day and others say one year. Once again, IMO, it is not a pre tribulation rapture that removes us from the tribulation of the last week.

A better description of the whole event is contained in Mat 21.

It has to do with all, dead and alive that belongs to Christ at that time. There will be people coming to Christ after that point, such as the final 1/3 of Israel which does happen at the very end of the week.

Bob



ta_mosquito -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (6/25/2008 10:11:25 AM)

Moving from The Bible to Prophecy & End Times.


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jeffweeder -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (6/27/2008 9:34:10 PM)

quote:

Mark 13: 26-27 says, "And then shall they see the Son of Man comming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his might angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Does this happen during the tribulation, if so what part?


[color=#663300] verse 24 gives you the answer.


Is this the resurrection of the dead, or does it have rapture qualities of gathering those who are alive?


Its the ressurection of the dead. see lk 21--day of redemption.

Those who are alive are only gathered when the dead rise;

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.





Does v. 30 of same chapter make these verses historically fulfilled and thus of no prophetic value?


30 "Truly I say to you, this generation[19][Or race ] will not pass away until all these things take place.
31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.



Retrobyter -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (6/28/2008 12:05:05 AM)

Shabbat shalom, pmilst!

Let's see.... You said, ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: pmilst
Mark 13: 26-27 says, "And then shall they see the Son of Man comming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his might angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Does this happen during the tribulation, if so what part?


Well, the first answer is easy. Check out verse 24 through 27:

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Therefore, the answer is "AFTER that tribulation (Greek: thlipsis = "pressure", particularly the "pressure" on the Jews as once again they are the targets for genocide).

Then you asked,...

quote:

ORIGINAL: pmilst
Is this the resurrection of the dead, or does it have rapture qualities of gathering those who are alive?


The answer to this is, "YES, BOTH!" It is the Resurrection of the Just (the Justified by God), but that is when we are also metamorphosed into our new bodies AFTER those who were dead are resurrected with their new bodies. Then, we are told both in this passage of Mark and in I Thess. 4:17 that we all will then be transported...not to "Heaven," but THROUGH the "heavens" (the "skies") to Isra'el when Yeshua` begins (and ends) the final battle and rescues ("saves") Isra'el!

Rom. 11:11-29
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

Also, listen to Z'kharyahu:

Zech 14:1-21
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
KJV

Then you asked,...

quote:

ORIGINAL: pmilst
Does it deal with just the elect of physical Israel or does the term "elect"
have reference to Jewish and Gentile believers?


Again, I say the answer is "YES!" The promises are given initially to national, physical Isra'el, but we believing Goyim (Gentiles; non-Jews)have been grafted in to the "olive tree" of the Commonwealth of Isra'el, just as believing Jews have been!

Lastly, you asked,...

quote:

ORIGINAL: pmilst
Does v. 30 of same chapter make these verses historically fulfilled and thus of no prophetic value?


Hmmm.... Someone's been listening to preterists! No, Mark 13:30 is not talking about the "generation" to whom Yeshua` was speaking, but rather is the "generation" who sees, "the sun...darkened," "the moon...not give her light," "the stars of heaven...fall," "the powers that are in heaven...shaken," and who sees, "the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." Preterists make the mistake of switching the independent clause with the dependent clause! It's not "all these things be done" that determines "this generation shall not pass"; it's "this generation shall not pass" that determines "all these things be done!"

Retrobyter



pmilst -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (6/28/2008 2:08:43 AM)

Thanks for your comments, they make good sense in context. Thanks for you effort in answering the question, it took a lot of your time. Just in passing, I don't even have a clue what a preterist believes, I just read the Word of God and let it speak for itself.



loco79 -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/8/2008 3:57:00 PM)

the rapture occurs coincident with the end of the world, not a millennium before the end of the world. Again, turning to the “rapture” passage in 1 Thessalonians, Paul says: “For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep” (v.15). In other words, those Christians living at the time of the “rapture” are not taken first.

Instead, “the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (vv.16-17). These passages clearly teach that the resurrection of the dead precedes the rapture. Therefore, to know when the rapture occurs, we must first know when the resurrection of the dead occurs.

Scripture teaches that the resurrection of the dead occurs on the “last day” of the world (John 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24; 12:48). Because the resurrection of the dead occurs on the “last day” of the world, and the rapture follows the resurrection, this means that the rapture also occurs on the “last day” (there can be no day after the “last day”). Since the rapture occurs on the “last day,” it cannot occur on any other day (that is, there is no “pre-millennial” rapture).



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/8/2008 5:44:11 PM)

Loco79: Or the last day of the Church Age which is pre-Millennial.

Pmilst: The Rapture happens during the one 'seven,' as specifically as Jesus lays it out in the sequence of events in the end-times; the Rapture happens after the Midpoint Abomination and it comes immediately after (and thus ends) the Great Tribulation.

The passage in Mark concerns the resurrection of the Dead in Christ (only) and those who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation has reduced the Elect to near extinction.

The term "Elect" certainly includes the Church, but it can also include Old Testament Saints like Daniel who are in the Book of Life when Jesus comes.

Verse 30 does not negate this nor reduce it to the past. All it says is that the generation who sees the midpoint will see the end, in one form or fashion or another.



loco79 -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/8/2008 7:35:34 PM)

But we have already seen that the “rapture” occurs on the “last day” (John 6), and immediately follows the resurrection of the dead (1 Thess. 4:16-17). This necessarily means that the righteous and the unrighteous will be raised at the same time, because there is no day that can follow the “last day” where the unrighteous could be raised.

Scripture, of course, confirms this conclusion. In John 5:28-29, the Lord Jesus says:

“Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.”

Jesus says that the resurrection will occur at “the hour” (v.28). This is the same as saying the resurrection will occur on the “last day” because an hour is part of one day, and that is the “last day” per John 6, 11 and 12. Jesus also says that “all who are in the tombs will hear his voice” (v.28). This follows Paul’s teaching on the resurrection/rapture event when he says that the Lord will descend from heaven with “a cry of command,” and the “dead in Christ will rise first” (1 Thess. 4:16).

Finally, Jesus is clear that at this “hour” both those who have done good and those who have done evil will rise at the same time. The good will be raised to life, and the evil will be raised to judgment. There is simply no exegetical basis for inserting a millennial period between the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust. Jesus says that the resurrection happens at “the hour,” when “all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth.” Thus, Scripture teaches that the rapture of the living occurs coincident with the resurrection of all of the dead, both the good and the evil, at the same time, on the last day of the world.

Taken from article "Zionism"



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/8/2008 11:00:10 PM)

There are two resurrections from the dead to Heaven in the Bible.

The first happens mainly on the Day of the Lord, and is completed later at the end of the one 'seven.'

You're referencing the second Resurrection of the dead that happens at the end of the Millennium.

REV 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The first Resurrection is only announced when the final component of it, the martyred Saints, are made alive once their number is complete, i.e., when the Two Witnesses are called up at the end of the one 'seven.'

The second Resurrection happens after the Millennium.

REV 20:7 When the thousand years are over... REV 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

There are FOUR TIMES the Bible mentions TWO Resurrections of the dead to Heaven.

The first is ONLY for the spiritually Living: i.e., the Elect. (The Rapture is but part of the first Resurrection.)

The second is for ALL, and the wicked will be separated from those who are in the Book of Life who lived after the first Resurrection and who will be added as the "Sheep."

Not to discount your reference in John, but you missed the first in John 5:24-25. That is one of the four times the Bible mentions two Resurrections. I gave a second one above from Revelation which clearly spells out the one after the one 'seven' as being the first, and says after the thousand years are over, comes the second.

You can argue if you like, but it won't get you anywhere; that's just what the Bible says.



Retrobyter -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/9/2008 1:34:38 AM)

Shalom, pmilst.

You said,
quote:

ORIGINAL: pmilst
Just in passing, I don't even have a clue what a preterist believes, I just read the Word of God and let it speak for itself.


Quite simply (perhaps, TOO simply?), a Preterist is one who believes that ALL of the prophecies of Matt. 24 and 25 were fulfilled in and around 70 A.D.

Douglas Connelly said in his book Bible Prophecy For Blockheads: A User-Friendly Look at the End Times,

"Techno-Speak: Preterist The position that the Tribulation happened in the past is called the preterist view. The term comes from the Latin word praeteritus, which means 'gone by' or 'past.' Some prominent Christian leaders who have held this view are Origen (185-254), Eusebius (260-340), John Calvin (1509-1564), and Matthew Henry (1662-1714). The preterist view of the Tribulation is usually held by those who are also amillennial or postmillennial in their view of the Kingdom. ... The Christian Reconstructionist movement also advocates a preterist view of the Tribulation. The main contemporary defenders of the 'tribulation is past' view are R.C. Sproul, Kenneth Gentry, Gary DeMar, and David Chilton." (p. 48)

That's what a "preterist" is.

Now, as far as "reading the Word of God and letting it speak for itself," unless you understand the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek and have the original manuscripts, you CANNOT "let the Word of God speak for itself." You (and pretty much every Christian in the world) rely on the translations and the translators not to mis-lead you and tell you the truth! For all the high-sounding speeches of those who say they rely on the Holy Spirit to guide them, even they are indebted to and dependent on the copyists and translators that have gone before them.

As a matter of fact, loco79's next post (post # 6) has a classic example of what I mean: the "end of the world" (Greek: sunteleias ton aioonon) is not talking about the "end of all time for the earth"; it's talking about the end of the AGE, because "ton aioonon" means "the age!" (This is found in Matthew 24:3.) THEREFORE, the "end of the age" CAN be, as bob97 noted, the end of THIS age before the beginning of the Millennium!

Be careful what you THINK the Scriptures say! Sometimes, what we think we have READ can be different than what the authors WROTE!

Retrobyter



loco79 -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/9/2008 9:59:42 AM)

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/9/2008 5:15:30 PM)

I don't mind the idea of a Sabbath Millennium being like a Sabbath Day.

So a day is like a thousand years, and while 'thousand' can be used symbolically, a literal interpretation cannot be ruled out.

Have you come around on saying the Rapture is at the end of the Millennium?

Have you found the four references in the Bible which indicate there are two resurrections from the dead to Heaven?



Retrobyter -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/9/2008 6:58:04 PM)

Shalom, loco79.

You said,
quote:

ORIGINAL: loco79

Rev. 20:2-3; 7-8 – John sees the vision of an angel who seizes satan and binds him for a period of a thousand years. We should also note that the “thousand years” language is part of apocalyptic literature and should not be interpreted literally. For example, in Psalm 50:10, we see the cattle on a "thousand hills." The word "thousand" here obviously means a lot of hills. In Dan. 7:10, a "thousand thousands" served him. Again, "thousand" means a lot. In 2 Peter 3:8, with God one day is a "thousand" years and a "thousand" years is one day. "Thousand" is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.


HUMPH! What if I said that "blood" should not be taken literally? Jesus didn't actually bleed to death! He just swooned on the cross and didn't really die! "Resurrection" should therefore also not be taken literally!

See how deep this could go? It's a slippery slope you start sliding down when you say any part of the Bible should not be taken literally.

Retrobyter



loco79 -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/10/2008 5:41:49 PM)

Retrobyter

Like all things it should be taken in context. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I havent seen anywhere in the bible were 1000 literally means 1000. Of the examples I gave earlier and a few others I believe, I am still looking for 1000 to be taken literally. So in the context of the whole bible if none of the other verses (besides Rev) are taken literally, and Rev is prophetic, with lots of symbolism to begin with, then couldnt the 1000 in Rev also be taken symbolic. There are many more directions we could both go to support our own beliefs, but taking your literal interpetation, doesnt seem to fit your own criteria.



Retrobyter -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/13/2008 12:18:22 AM)

Shalom, loco79.

You said,
quote:

ORIGINAL: loco79

Retrobyter

Like all things it should be taken in context. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I havent seen anywhere in the bible were 1000 literally means 1000. Of the examples I gave earlier and a few others I believe, I am still looking for 1000 to be taken literally. So in the context of the whole bible if none of the other verses (besides Rev) are taken literally, and Rev is prophetic, with lots of symbolism to begin with, then couldnt the 1000 in Rev also be taken symbolic. There are many more directions we could both go to support our own beliefs, but taking your literal interpetation, doesnt seem to fit your own criteria.


Actually, there are lots of passages where 1000 means 1000. All you have to do is look:

Gen. 20:16; Num. 31:4, 5, 6; 35:4; Deut. 1:11; 7:9; 32:30; Josh. 23:10; Judg. 15:15, 16; 20:10; I Sam. 13:2; 25:2; II Sam. 8:4; 10:6; 18:12; 19:17; I Kings 15:19; 24:16; I Chron. 12:34; 16:15; 18:4; 19:6; 29:21; II Chron. 1:6; 30:24; Ezra 1:9, 10; 8:27; Neh. 3:13; 7:70; Job 9:3; 33:23; 42:12; Eccl. 7:28; Song 4:4; 8:11, 12; Isa. 7:23; 30:17; 60:22; Ezek. 47:3-5; Dan. 5:1; and Amos 5:3 are all such locations.

Why does "1000" have to mean "a lot" when there are passages that say "ten thousand," "a thousand thousand," and "thirty thousand?" Why don't you just say "because the moon is green"? When one is adamant against believing something to be true, ANY excuse will do!

Retrobyter



Retrobyter -> RE: Does this speak of the rapture? or resurrection? (7/13/2008 12:29:53 AM)

Shalom, Sinner-Saint.

You said,...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

There are two resurrections from the dead to Heaven in the Bible.

The first happens mainly on the Day of the Lord, and is completed later at the end of the one 'seven.'

You're referencing the second Resurrection of the dead that happens at the end of the Millennium.

REV 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

The first Resurrection is only announced when the final component of it, the martyred Saints, are made alive once their number is complete, i.e., when the Two Witnesses are called up at the end of the one 'seven.'

The second Resurrection happens after the Millennium.

REV 20:7 When the thousand years are over... REV 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

There are FOUR TIMES the Bible mentions TWO Resurrections of the dead to Heaven.

The first is ONLY for the spiritually Living: i.e., the Elect. (The Rapture is but part of the first Resurrection.)

The second is for ALL, and the wicked will be separated from those who are in the Book of Life who lived after the first Resurrection and who will be added as the "Sheep."

Not to discount your reference in John, but you missed the first in John 5:24-25. That is one of the four times the Bible mentions two Resurrections. I gave a second one above from Revelation which clearly spells out the one after the one 'seven' as being the first, and says after the thousand years are over, comes the second.

You can argue if you like, but it won't get you anywhere; that's just what the Bible says.


While I may not agree with you on everything, in this particular case, I believe you are right on the money! For further support, consider I Cor. 15:21-28:

1 Cor. 15:21-28
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order:
(1) Christ the firstfruits;
afterward...
(2) they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh...
(3) the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
(I merely added the breaks and the numbering of the Resurrections.)

This passage can be harmonized quite well with Rev. 20.

Retrobyter



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