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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/2/2008 2:05:14 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, tony.nz!
You said,
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
Retrobyter, I have some problems with some of the things you say!
Firstly
quote:
Therefore, Yeshua` is using these parables to tell us more information about the 1000-year period to come! The Kingdom will start out small but will grow as Yeshua` LITERALLY becomes the King of kings, a title by the way that was also given to Nebuchadnezzar to mean "world emperor," and the Kingdom grows until it fills the earth! Furthermore, its influence will start out rather small by comparison. It will NOT automatically be a place to which the Gentiles will seek.
BUT, as the Kingdom grows and reports about the Kingdom and its wise King become more widely known, THEN the Gentiles will flock to the Kingdom of Isra'el! Then, the prophecy that says,...
Personally, I believe that when Christ returns, the world will be in no doubt that He is King of Kings, it will be world news that makes all that is known of history pale in comparison! He will set up His kingdom, in Jerusalem, to rule over all the world! The parable you speak of relates to the church, which was planted as a small seed, and is now growing, and is preparing to fill the world on His return!
No, that is a common misconception based on the Replacement Theology point of view, namely that the "Church" has somehow taken the place of "Isra'el" in prophecy. Where was this "Church" when Yeshua` spoke these parables? But that's NOT what Yeshua` said about this parable! He said the KINGDOM FROM THE SKY (OF HEAVEN) was like the mustard seed!
When Yeshua` returns, you're right, there'll be no doubt that He is a special Ruler! HaMelek Yisra'el (The King of Isra'el) will be revered and feared by the world ... eventually; HOWEVER, who will be ready to ACCEPT Him as THEIR "King of kings?" as THEIR Emperor? Do you think the Scriptures vainly say in Psalm 2 that the kings of the earth will assemble AGAINST the LORD's Anointed?
Then you said and quoted,
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
This prophecy speaks of that day!
Zecahriah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain ; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD' house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
This is a problem with translation of the Hebrew language into the English tongue. The word "`eretz" CAN mean "the earth" as the "whole earth," but it can ALSO mean "the LAND," particularly "the Land of Isra'el," and frequently does!
Furthermore, it is not just "all the nations," but it's "all the nations which came against Jerusalem!" That WON'T be everyone! It'll just be those particular nations (most probably the Islamic nations that surround Isra'el) that tried to do Jerusalem harm! There will be many countries in the world which will not have stood for or against Jerusalem! Be VERY careful not to make sweeping generalizations; sometimes--in fact, often--the Scriptures are intended to be taken locally and particularly.
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
Now, Zechariah speaks of a conflict, prior to the return of the Lord, which I believe we are leading up to in these days. This, I believe, is seperate to that conflict at the end of the millenial reign, which satan himself shall lead and result in his casting into the lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet already reside.
The battle of Har-Megiddown to which you are referring will happen just after (or during) the Return of the Lord because it is part of His Return known as the Rescue. Yeshua` will free every town and village of Y'hudah (Judah) and then proceed to Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) where He will set His foot on the Har HaZeiytim (the Mount of Olives), splitting it in two and forming an escape route through which the oppressed within Yerushalayim may flee. Then, after He has scoured Yerushalayim of His enemies, He will chase them out the Dammasek Gate (the Damascus Gate) on the northern wall and northward through that valley. When they reach Har Megiddown (the Mount of Megiddo), they will attempt to regroup and stand against haMashiach (the Messiah), but will fail miserably. Afterward, Yeshua` haMashiach will gather the survivors in Gei-Hinnom (Greek: gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom) and judge those nations there. The Beast and his False Prophet will be judged and sentenced at this judgment.
Now, I agree with you that this is a different conflict than the one which occurs after the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign for it is during this 1000 years that haSatan is incarcerated in chains in the Abyss (Greek: abussos meaning "no-bottom").
Lastly, you asked,
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
So, the question remains, why would people join satan in this conflict, and what is it's purpose? I think it may be this, to expose the true identity of unbelief. People say that they do not believe because they cannot see God, and they cannot see evidence of His existence. Yet, when He is seen, and sits on His throne in Jerusalem, it's true identity (rebellion against the rule of God), will be seen, all the world will be without excuse. This identity goes right back to Eden - that mankind, knowing God, chooses his own path. Thus, when hades (those dwelling in death), and the sea (those still dwelling on the face of the earth), are emptied, and all stand before Christ, each and every one will be without excuse.
During the Millennium (the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign), the LAST 1000 years of this second earth and its second sky that Shim`own Kefa [Simon Peter] mentions in II Peter 3, there will still be plenty of people who will physically live upon the earth in their natural bodies. However, the children of the wicked one, planted in His Kingdom from the beginning, will be polarized from those who are true children of the Kingdom and will have less and less freedom to resist the iron-sceptre rule of haMelek (the King). Therefore, when haSatan is loosed for a "little season," they will naturally gravitate to him as a vain hope of victory against the Mashiach, but their rebellion will be short-lived as they perish in the global Fire that Kefa sees which separates the second earth and the second sky from the third earth and its third sky (the "third heaven" of Paul), the new earth and its sky which Yochanan (John) said would be re-formed on which Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem) lands.
It is during this time of the Fire, that Yeshua` haMashiach haMelek Yisra'el (Jesus the Messiah [the Christ] the King of Isra'el), having all judgment committed unto Him by His Father, will sit in judgment on the Second General Resurrection, the Resurrection of the Condemned, and will sentence them to the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20), and you are exactly correct about the reasons for doing so! The dead, small and great, whether they were buried on land or in the sea or cremated will all be raised and face the Judgment with haSatan. The last enemy which will also be destroyed is Death itself. Then, the world will be re-created from the ashes, Yerushalayim haChadashah will descend, and the final state will begin.
That's the way that these prophecies can be merged without contradiction.
Retrobyter
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/2/2008 2:33:05 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, deborlie!
You said,
quote:
ORIGINAL: deborlie
This is my understanding.....................
Originally, God made a covenant with Israel that they would become Priests bringing Gentiles to their God. In fact, these Gentiles will beg the Jew to bring them to thier God. Israel was being groomed by God for this purpose, and it shows God was interested in the saving of all mankind, even down to the hated Gentile. This was supposed to happen when the Jewish nation (Israel) accepted Jesus as their Lord. and of course we know they didn't. Jesus was put to death, buried, and resurrected. The Jew, for the time being, any way, lost his chance. But, God never backs down on a covenant. So this again is reserved for the future.
In the meantime, Paul was sent to the Gentiles, and and so began age of Grace, up to now, any way. Satan is still with us. The world gets worse, and worse until the day of reckoning. The believers and the dead in Christ all will be caught up in the air, (this is the second resurrection) and with this force of good out of the way, Satan will show the world his colors. Before God's wrath begins.......A small reminant of Jews is carried away, and during this time they finally accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour/King. At the end of this time frame, Jesus Christ and his Saints (the church and all believers) return with him to set up the Kingdom. There will be other survivors besides the Jews, but few and far between. These will be the seed stock for the future. This Jewish reminant as the promised Priests will bring the Gentile reminant to their God. These will live and have children during the thousand year reign of Christ. Satan is bound for these thousand years. There will be peace in Jerusalam finally. The children will grow up in a peaceful clime, not knowing the like of what was before. At the end of this Thousand year reign. Satan is released again. Now, these children will be tested such as we are now. Thev've tasted what it can be like. Will it be enough to hold them? They will have their choice of whom they want to follow. A War like the war of Armagedon will again be fought. At it's end, (The third ressurection will happen) Jesus will then separate the "sheep from the goats", and give the final judgement. Satan will be cast into the deepest of the pit. And his followers follow into Hades according to their deeds. Hell (Hades) was never meant/nor made for human habitation.
This is about as brief as I can make it.
That's pretty good! The only thing that might improve it, IMO, is that you need to recognize that the Jews are CURRENTLY beginning to accept Yeshua` as their own Mashiach, their own Messiah! Through some persecution by their Jewish neighbors, even in Isra'el they are coming to Yeshua` in HUGE numbers! Furthermore, this is not just here in the US or in Isra'el that this is happening! It's also happening in Jewish pockets of society throughout the earth! There are Jewish communities in Russia, in Ethiopia, in the Sudan, in South American countries, in Arab countries, and in almost any other place you'd least expect them to be found, and they ALL have some groups discovering that Yeshua` was indeed the Messiah their ancestors had rejected!
Therefore, we don't have to wait for "The believers and the dead in Christ all will be caught up in the air, (this is the second resurrection) and with this force of good out of the way, Satan will show the world his colors. Before God's wrath begins.......A small reminant of Jews is carried away, and during this time they finally accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour/King." IT'S HAPPENING NOW! Thus, I switch these two events around. The Rapture (a portion of the Second Resurrection) will happen AFTER the Jewish (and Gentile) remnant accepting Yeshua haMashiach as their Savior and King.
Retrobyter
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/2/2008 3:08:55 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Giulia!
You said,
quote:
ORIGINAL: Giulia
I was not really intending to invite a discussion on escathology as I don't understand it and don't have a view about it, neither do I find it a fruitful discussion. Whatever God wills that I shall welcome. Rather, seeing that when we are born again we receive new bodies, as without a new body we cannot take part of the kingdom and that is what the new birth brings. As we go beyond the cross and into the sharing of the resurrection, and also knowing that to God a 1,000 yrs is as one day; living in this as a reality of the now could also mean that satan is loosed among us now. Living a day or a 1,000 yrs in the power of the resurrection and then having satan loosed. Anyone follow?
The new body is a direct result of the new birth when we share in Jesus' death and then are raised in His life. It is this body that is shaped by God's Holy flame in the likeness of Jesus' resurrected body (of which He is the first fruit) which purifies. Without which no one will taste heaven. A body we receive by faith but which is as real as this mortal body we wear.
The thousand yr reign could be the one day reigning with the Lord over all the Spirits as we are in Him and Him in us. Sharing this in the form of servitude as Christ intended. No wonder it is so hard to find humility in the church. It's a battle to be humble when you are lifted to reign with Him, however it is imperative in order to remain on the narrow way. Satan is right there.
As presented in the Scriptures, we are NOT currently in the thousand-year reign! (And, I'm SO glad of that, because if THIS is the Kingdom, it stinks!) I'm also glad that we will LITERALLY receive new bodies when we are either transformed or else resurrected at the Second Coming of our Master! We don't get some change in our current bodies, real or "in faith," that can be allegorized and called "new bodies" at our conversion when we are born again!
Since we are LITERALLY going to receive new bodies just as we are LITERALLY going to be raised back to life at the LITERAL Second Coming of Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah or the Christ), this event MUST be in the future. Thus, if falls into the "study about the last things," which is what the term "eschatology" means.
Now, you are right that without a new body we cannot participate in the Kingdom of God, but the "Church" is NOT the Kingdom of God! The "Church" is merely a "called-out" group of people who WILL BE SUBJECTS of the FUTURE Kingdom of God! The Kingdom of God (i.e., God's Kingdom), also known as the Kingdom of Heaven (i.e., the Kingdom from the sky because it arrives WITH the King when HE comes from the sky) is the LITERAL Kingdom which Yeshua` was foretold to inherit from His ancestor Daviyd the King! (Luke 1:30-33) It is the Kingdom of Isra'el over which He will rule immediately after His arrival, from which point He will grow His world empire that will "fill the earth!" (Dani'el chapters 2 and 7)
Thus, by using all of this terminology--e.g., new bodies, Kingdom, resurrection, and 1000-years--you HAVE invited a discussion on eschatology, because these literal events and things are properly placed IN eschatology, the "study of last things!" Don't try to "spiritualize" these things away!
You said, "...neither do I find it (eschatology) a fruitful discussion." What?!!! If you don't know where you're going, how will you know when you get there? Eschatology gives us IMPETUS! It helps to FUEL our urgency! It give us HOPE and CONFIDENCE in the Return of Yeshua`! In fact, His Return/Second-Coming/Second-Advent is labeled the "BLESSED HOPE!" It DRIVES us to do more for Him! Don't fear eschatology! Its study will be a good source of purpose to whatever ministry in which you may be involved!
Retrobyter
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/5/2008 10:28:51 PM
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tony.nz
Posts: 295
Joined: 7/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
You said,
quote:
Therefore, Yeshua` is using these parables to tell us more information about the 1000-year period to come! The Kingdom will start out small but will grow as Yeshua` LITERALLY becomes the King of kings, a title by the way that was also given to Nebuchadnezzar to mean "world emperor," and the Kingdom grows until it fills the earth! Furthermore, its influence will start out rather small by comparison. It will NOT automatically be a place to which the Gentiles will seek.
BUT, as the Kingdom grows and reports about the Kingdom and its wise King become more widely known, THEN the Gentiles will flock to the Kingdom of Isra'el! Then, the prophecy that says,...
Personally, I believe that when Christ returns, the world will be in no doubt that He is King of Kings, it will be world news that makes all that is known of history pale in comparison! He will set up His kingdom, in Jerusalem, to rule over all the world! The parable you speak of relates to the church, which was planted as a small seed, and is now growing, and is preparing to fill the world on His return!
No, that is a common misconception based on the Replacement Theology point of view, namely that the "Church" has somehow taken the place of "Isra'el" in prophecy. Where was this "Church" when Yeshua` spoke these parables? But that's NOT what Yeshua` said about this parable! He said the KINGDOM FROM THE SKY (OF HEAVEN) was like the mustard seed!
When Yeshua` returns, you're right, there'll be no doubt that He is a special Ruler! HaMelek Yisra'el (The King of Isra'el) will be revered and feared by the world ... eventually; HOWEVER, who will be ready to ACCEPT Him as THEIR "King of kings?" as THEIR Emperor? Do you think the Scriptures vainly say in Psalm 2 that the kings of the earth will assemble AGAINST the LORD's Anointed?
Shalom Retrobyter,
Firstly, you need to know that I was not advocating replacement theology, which I believe is a load of crock. Israel is Israel, and the Church is the Church. In this case, I was thinking of the church as the universal body of believers in Yeshua, incorporating both Jews and Gentiles. It is the church which currently partakes of "the Kingdom of Heaven", on earth. Yeshua planted the seed, and as He promised, the word has spread all around the world, so that believers are now found in all nations. So, I was thinking of the terms as being synonomous, when perhaps they are not quite so, and technically, you are therfore correct.
Rather than this, which is more an issue of semantics, I would like to explore your advocacy of the idea that the Messiah will return, and gain recognition by a gradual process. And that some will recognise Him immediately, and some would not. Now, I have had it in my head, that His return would be sudden, dramatic, inexplicable and terrifying to the world, and immediately recognisable by all His true followers.
You seem to place your view on your interpretation of the parable of the mustard seed. I can assure you however, that my alternative interpretation is not based on mistakenly associating Israel with the Church, as in replacement theology. Rather, as has been explained, it is through the growth of the church that the Holy Spirit has made the Kingdom of Heaven known, and it is indeed now a great tree that "fills the whole earth", or perhaps almost meets that description at the present time.
So, in summary, I think the difference is that you see the fulfillment of the growth of this tree as being consumated during the millenial reign, I see it as being consumated during the church age.
Now, in Matthew 24:23 to 26, Yeshua tells us not to be decieved by people who tell us that He has returned, or that He is in a particular place, or who say "here He is". Then, in vs 27, He makes the dramatic counterpoint. His return will be as lightning, which comes from the east and flashes to the west. I see verses 28 and 29 as returning to a description of the preceeding period, and in vs 30 He reiterates and expands upon His sudden and dramatic return. "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"! There is some more explanation, and the in vs 44 it is summed up, "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect"! Following on, we have the parable of the ten virgins, which clearly illustrate that it is then too late for those who were not prepared. Therefore, the mustard seed must at this stage, have consumated it's growth.
Now, all this is devastating for the likes of Jehovah Witnesses, who tell us that Yeshua has been in hiding since 1914, or the various new age groups who from time to time promote some guru as a person in the name or type of Christ.
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/8/2008 1:23:41 AM
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stolar1962
Posts: 34
Joined: 4/12/2005
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In reference to children being born during this time period...
Isa 65:
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. 19 I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying. 20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
Apparently during this time, there will still be unbelievers, who have a 100 years of grace to make up their minds...
At the end of the tribulation. there will be people with glorified bodies - ie, those who have died and were resurrected or changed at the rapture and those who survivived the tribulation period. It seems that these people will still be able to bear children.
One of the posters quoted a verse out of context the passage refers to those who have been resurrected from the dead.
18 Then some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him; and they asked Him, saying: 19 "Teacher, Moses wrote to us that if a man's brother dies, and leaves his wife behind, and leaves no children, his brother should take his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 20 Now there were seven brothers. The first took a wife; and dying, he left no offspring. 21 And the second took her, and he died; nor did he leave any offspring. And the third likewise. 22 So the seven had her and left no offspring. Last of all the woman died also. 23 Therefore, in the resurrection, when they rise, whose wife will she be? For all seven had her as wife." 24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
the passage refers to those who have been ressurrected. It says nothing about those who survive the tribulation.
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/8/2008 1:25:11 AM
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stolar1962
Posts: 34
Joined: 4/12/2005
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sorry, the last passage was from Mark 12
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/8/2008 12:16:42 PM
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Coffee_Drinker
Posts: 109
Joined: 5/20/2008
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I like this...
Isaiah Ch: 65
quote:
16: That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
17: For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18: But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19: And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20: There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
21: And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
22: They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
23: They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
24: And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25: The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
_____________________________
Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/10/2008 1:34:42 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, tony.nz!
You said,
quote:
ORIGINAL: tony.nz
quote:
quote:
You said,
quote:
Therefore, Yeshua` is using these parables to tell us more information about the 1000-year period to come! The Kingdom will start out small but will grow as Yeshua` LITERALLY becomes the King of kings, a title by the way that was also given to Nebuchadnezzar to mean "world emperor," and the Kingdom grows until it fills the earth! Furthermore, its influence will start out rather small by comparison. It will NOT automatically be a place to which the Gentiles will seek.
BUT, as the Kingdom grows and reports about the Kingdom and its wise King become more widely known, THEN the Gentiles will flock to the Kingdom of Isra'el! Then, the prophecy that says,...
Personally, I believe that when Christ returns, the world will be in no doubt that He is King of Kings, it will be world news that makes all that is known of history pale in comparison! He will set up His kingdom, in Jerusalem, to rule over all the world! The parable you speak of relates to the church, which was planted as a small seed, and is now growing, and is preparing to fill the world on His return!
No, that is a common misconception based on the Replacement Theology point of view, namely that the "Church" has somehow taken the place of "Isra'el" in prophecy. Where was this "Church" when Yeshua` spoke these parables? But that's NOT what Yeshua` said about this parable! He said the KINGDOM FROM THE SKY (OF HEAVEN) was like the mustard seed!
When Yeshua` returns, you're right, there'll be no doubt that He is a special Ruler! HaMelek Yisra'el (The King of Isra'el) will be revered and feared by the world ... eventually; HOWEVER, who will be ready to ACCEPT Him as THEIR "King of kings?" as THEIR Emperor? Do you think the Scriptures vainly say in Psalm 2 that the kings of the earth will assemble AGAINST the LORD's Anointed?
Shalom Retrobyter,
Firstly, you need to know that I was not advocating replacement theology, which I believe is a load of crock. Israel is Israel, and the Church is the Church. In this case, I was thinking of the church as the universal body of believers in Yeshua, incorporating both Jews and Gentiles. It is the church which currently partakes of "the Kingdom of Heaven", on earth. Yeshua planted the seed, and as He promised, the word has spread all around the world, so that believers are now found in all nations. So, I was thinking of the terms as being synonomous, when perhaps they are not quite so, and technically, you are therfore correct.
Rather than this, which is more an issue of semantics, I would like to explore your advocacy of the idea that the Messiah will return, and gain recognition by a gradual process. And that some will recognise Him immediately, and some would not. Now, I have had it in my head, that His return would be sudden, dramatic, inexplicable and terrifying to the world, and immediately recognisable by all His true followers.
You seem to place your view on your interpretation of the parable of the mustard seed. I can assure you however, that my alternative interpretation is not based on mistakenly associating Israel with the Church, as in replacement theology. Rather, as has been explained, it is through the growth of the church that the Holy Spirit has made the Kingdom of Heaven known, and it is indeed now a great tree that "fills the whole earth", or perhaps almost meets that description at the present time.
So, in summary, I think the difference is that you see the fulfillment of the growth of this tree as being consumated during the millenial reign, I see it as being consumated during the church age.
Now, in Matthew 24:23 to 26, Yeshua tells us not to be decieved by people who tell us that He has returned, or that He is in a particular place, or who say "here He is". Then, in vs 27, He makes the dramatic counterpoint. His return will be as lightning, which comes from the east and flashes to the west. I see verses 28 and 29 as returning to a description of the preceeding period, and in vs 30 He reiterates and expands upon His sudden and dramatic return. "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"! There is some more explanation, and the in vs 44 it is summed up, "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect"! Following on, we have the parable of the ten virgins, which clearly illustrate that it is then too late for those who were not prepared. Therefore, the mustard seed must at this stage, have consumated it's growth.
Now, all this is devastating for the likes of Jehovah Witnesses, who tell us that Yeshua has been in hiding since 1914, or the various new age groups who from time to time promote some guru as a person in the name or type of Christ.
I'd just like to re-iterate something I've said in another stream:
When you say, "Israel is Israel, and the Church is the Church. In this case, I was thinking of the church as the universal body of believers in Yeshua, incorporating both Jews and Gentiles," you're right...to a point...and you are wrong, too.
You're right that the Jews have no better standing than we Gentiles do in the Messiah; you're right that we are all "saved" the same.
HOWEVER, the Jews who are "saved" are NOT absorbed into this thing called "the Church." Instead, it is WE GENTILES WHO BELIEVE that are absorbed into the COMMONWEALTH OF ISRA'EL! WE are grafted into the Olive Branch, which represents God's Kingdom on earth, which was once presided over by King Daviyd!
Pay close attention to the wording in the following passages:
Rom 11:11-29
11 I say then, Have they (the Jews) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (RESURRECTION!)?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion (or Zion, the mountain in Jerusalem) the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't CHANGE HIS MIND about His gifts or His calling! If He called the Jews "my people" before, He will do so again! We just have the good grace of God to be included in His "my people," too!)
KJV
Eph 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ (a Messiah), being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus (Messiah Yeshua`) ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God (that's not "the Church" but is the aforementioned "commonwealth of Isra'el," for the "saints" are the "holy ones" of the OT Scriptures!);
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ (Yeshua` Messiah) himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV
Furthermore, I'd have you read Luke 1:30-33 carefully, as well:
Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob (Isra'el) for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
Thus, His Kingdom ON EARTH is not just for a thousand years but is FOREVER and THERE SHALL BE NO END!
May the Master richly bless you in your study (because if you "bless Isra'el," you yourself, now a part of that Isra'el, will also be blessed)! It's a great irony!
Retrobyter
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/18/2008 5:50:24 AM
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Katie-Scarlet
Posts: 105
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline
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If I'm not mistaken and if I am please correct me but the 1,000 year reign and satans release comes after the rapture, after tribulation and after we all come back down from heaven to the new earth.
With this in mind the people who live through tribulation and are around when we return will still be in their flesh bodies just as we were before the rapture. So it stands to reason that at first everyone will be willing to follow Christ because hey look at all of what just happened on the planet and here he is right where we can see him so no problem serving him yes? Wasn't it easier for those decendants closer to the time when Adam and Eve where first cast out to still be obedient and love God. As time moved on men (because they were still in their sins) moved further away from God and more into their own thing ( which they don't realize is really satans thing) The same will occur again don't you think. God said there is nothing new under the sun.
We now have the choice to choose between satans way and Gods way. With satan gone and only Jesus being around is that really free will (which is what God gives us all) are those people who made it through it all and have given birth to new generations really choosing God because they want to or becasue there are no other options. No satan no choice to be made. God doesn't force anyone to choose him. It must be of our own free will.
Thats how I see it anyway. Could be wrong.
_____________________________
Satans job is 24hrs 365 days a year and he never takes lunch, vacation or has a sick day.
Are you ready to join the war? Know your enemy, prepare yourself.
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 7/18/2008 11:35:14 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shabbat shalom, Katie-Scarlet!
You wrote,...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Katie-Scarlet
If I'm not mistaken and if I am please correct me but the 1,000 year reign and satans release comes after the rapture, after tribulation and after we all come back down from heaven to the new earth.
With this in mind the people who live through tribulation and are around when we return will still be in their flesh bodies just as we were before the rapture. So it stands to reason that at first everyone will be willing to follow Christ because hey look at all of what just happened on the planet and here he is right where we can see him so no problem serving him yes? Wasn't it easier for those decendants closer to the time when Adam and Eve where first cast out to still be obedient and love God. As time moved on men (because they were still in their sins) moved further away from God and more into their own thing ( which they don't realize is really satans thing) The same will occur again don't you think. God said there is nothing new under the sun.
We now have the choice to choose between satans way and Gods way. With satan gone and only Jesus being around is that really free will (which is what God gives us all) are those people who made it through it all and have given birth to new generations really choosing God because they want to or becasue there are no other options. No satan no choice to be made. God doesn't force anyone to choose him. It must be of our own free will.
Thats how I see it anyway. Could be wrong.
You are right that it comes after the tribulation (Greek: thlipsis meaning "pressure," particularly that "pressure" put on the Jews as another attempt at genocide is made), and after the rapture (Greek: harpazoo meaning "snatch away," NOT "caught UP"), but it is BEFORE the New Heaven (Greek: ouranos meaning "sky") and the New Earth. The New Earth with its New Sky comes AFTER the Millennium (Latin for "1000-years," Greek: chilia etee).
Analyzing the purpose for the rapture, I believe that we are transported THROUGH the "heavens" (the "skies") and descend back to the earth in a relatively short time period. We don't go to some mystical, ethereal place called "Heaven." Rather, it is a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM that the Lord uses by sending His messengers (Greek: aggeloi) to gather His elect (His chosen ones) from the ends of the earth, and collecting/transporting them to the skies over Isra'el, and then depositing us in Isra'el to both witness and help in the warfare that the Messiah will wage against the Jews in Judah and Jerusalem.
Retrobyter
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 8/16/2008 12:24:47 AM
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ChristopherJ
Posts: 230
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: imminence
Does the Bible teach the 1K yr. reign is here on Earth or in Heaven?
This question presupposes the premillennial dispensationalist interpretation of a future literal 1,000 year period. I much prefer either the postmillennial or amillennial positions, and see the 1,000 years (mentioned ONLY in Revelation 20 - in the most highly symbolic, prophetic and apocalyptic book in the Bible) as referring to the entire dispensation of the church age from the first coming to the second coming of Jesus, where He rules & reigns in the hearts of His followers...
To those who have read the Left Behind books or seen the movies - NOTE - these are only FICTION books, and I would strongly discourage you from building your eschatology on them!!
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 8/24/2008 5:52:12 PM
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TheDayDrawsNigh
Posts: 22
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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Am I really the only one who sees all the confussion based on the misconception of a Biblical principal? (1Cor 2:13-14) You will NEVER come to truth if you don't use this principal of Biblical interpretation explained here by God himself. The 'Spiritual Things' spoken of here in 1 Cor 2:13 are explained in Romans 15:27. That is the only 2 times God used this term 'Spiritual Things'. (Spiritual things = The scriptures/Bible)
It is the Bible itself we get our answers from and God uses numbers, such as 'a Thousand Years' as seen in Revelation in a Parabolic nature and we better not try to carnalize these verses as seems to be so common nowadays just as the Pharisees had done in the days Jesus walked the earth thinking Jesus was going to be some kind of a worldy king (as opposed to a 'Spiritual' King)
A clue to how God uses numbers parabolically (as opposed to a literal understanding) can be found in Isaiah 65:20 where we are told that a CHILD will DIE in HEAVEN a HUNDRED years old!!!!
First of all there IS NO death in heaven and people are like Angels in Heaven in the sense they don't marry and have lives like we have on earth that are carnal, so the idea there are children in Heaven is spiritual in meaning and since WHEN is a child a HUNDRED years old? We are being taught here how to understand Gods use of numbers in his parabolic language (Matt 13:34 & Mark 4:34) and here we can see where a number with a multiple of 10 is used to signify the 'COMPLETENESS' of the situation. That is, that a person in Heaven will be there ETERNALLY (The 'completeness' of Heaven and the sinner will NEVER have life again for ALL of eternity.)
So this is with Revelation where true believers are said to 'Riegn' with Christ a Thousand years in Chapter 20. First we have Biblical comflict if we think this 1,000 reign with Christ is LITERAL because that starts for each believer as soon as he is saved as God tells us through Paul for instance in 1 Cor 4:8. The thousand year 'REIGN' spoken of in Revelation is this SAME 'Reign' just as spoken of in 2 Tomothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also REIGN WITH HIM: if we deny him, he will also deny us" This 'suffering' happens NOW in a true believers life. This is NOT some future time. Just as Paul said "...Ye HAVE reigned...." This is NOT some future time. This 'Reigning happens at the moment of salvation when God considers a true believer to be like a King. (Rev 1:6 "And (God) hath MADE US KINGS and priests unto God and his Father....")
So this thousand year reign of Revelation 20 is signifying the completeness of time for the true believers from Adam till the raptue. The period AFTER the thousand year reign is a literal 5 month period of time when God brings all the fury of his judgement against this earth and its inhabitants as we see starting in Revelation 9:5. Then after 5 months what we see in 2 Peter 3:10 will take place. (Notice that THIS 'Day of the Lord' comes as a 'Thief in the night' but yet at the rapture it will NOT be as a 'Thief in the night' for the true believers? 1 Thes 5:4)
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 9/1/2008 3:36:10 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, TheDayDrawsNigh!
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheDayDrawsNigh
Am I really the only one who sees all the confussion based on the misconception of a Biblical principal? (1Cor 2:13-14) You will NEVER come to truth if you don't use this principal of Biblical interpretation explained here by God himself. The 'Spiritual Things' spoken of here in 1 Cor 2:13 are explained in Romans 15:27. That is the only 2 times God used this term 'Spiritual Things'. (Spiritual things = The scriptures/Bible)
It is the Bible itself we get our answers from and God uses numbers, such as 'a Thousand Years' as seen in Revelation in a Parabolic nature and we better not try to carnalize these verses as seems to be so common nowadays just as the Pharisees had done in the days Jesus walked the earth thinking Jesus was going to be some kind of a worldy king (as opposed to a 'Spiritual' King)
A clue to how God uses numbers parabolically (as opposed to a literal understanding) can be found in Isaiah 65:20 where we are told that a CHILD will DIE in HEAVEN a HUNDRED years old!!!!
First of all there IS NO death in heaven and people are like Angels in Heaven in the sense they don't marry and have lives like we have on earth that are carnal, so the idea there are children in Heaven is spiritual in meaning and since WHEN is a child a HUNDRED years old? We are being taught here how to understand Gods use of numbers in his parabolic language (Matt 13:34 & Mark 4:34) and here we can see where a number with a multiple of 10 is used to signify the 'COMPLETENESS' of the situation. That is, that a person in Heaven will be there ETERNALLY (The 'completeness' of Heaven and the sinner will NEVER have life again for ALL of eternity.)
So this is with Revelation where true believers are said to 'Riegn' with Christ a Thousand years in Chapter 20. First we have Biblical comflict if we think this 1,000 reign with Christ is LITERAL because that starts for each believer as soon as he is saved as God tells us through Paul for instance in 1 Cor 4:8. The thousand year 'REIGN' spoken of in Revelation is this SAME 'Reign' just as spoken of in 2 Tomothy 2:12 "If we suffer, we shall also REIGN WITH HIM: if we deny him, he will also deny us" This 'suffering' happens NOW in a true believers life. This is NOT some future time. Just as Paul said "...Ye HAVE reigned...." This is NOT some future time. This 'Reigning happens at the moment of salvation when God considers a true believer to be like a King. (Rev 1:6 "And (God) hath MADE US KINGS and priests unto God and his Father....")
So this thousand year reign of Revelation 20 is signifying the completeness of time for the true believers from Adam till the raptue. The period AFTER the thousand year reign is a literal 5 month period of time when God brings all the fury of his judgement against this earth and its inhabitants as we see starting in Revelation 9:5. Then after 5 months what we see in 2 Peter 3:10 will take place. (Notice that THIS 'Day of the Lord' comes as a 'Thief in the night' but yet at the rapture it will NOT be as a 'Thief in the night' for the true believers? 1 Thes 5:4)
Pardon my bluntness, but do you so easily stumble at things you don't yet understand? For the understanding of Isa. 65:20, you must look up the verse in Hebrew, because somehow the verse's meaning was lost in translation. It's not the CHILD that dies, but CHILDHOOD that "dies" when the youth turns 100 during the millennium!
Furthermore, you have mistaken the purpose of the millennium. It is not the time period for the reign of the Messiah nor for those who reign with Him. It is the time period in which haSatan (the Enemy) is incarcerated in the Abyss! While Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah or Jesus the Christ) will reign during the thousand years, the Scriptures also say, "and of His kingdom there will be no end!" (Luke 1:30-33) Furthermore, the same book, Revelation, also talks about those who reign with Him reigning forever and ever (Rev. 22:5).
You see, the thousand years are just the last thousand years of this current earth and its atmosphere before the global Fire. Just as Kefa (Peter) noted that the first earth and its first atmosphere (ouranos="heaven"=sky) were destroyed in the global Flood, so this second earth and its second atmosphere will be destroyed in the global Fire. (II Peter 3) Nevertheless, we look for a NEW earth and atmosphere--a THIRD earth and a THIRD atmosphere in which righteousness will dwell!
Don't be so easy to give up on a literal interpretation of Scripture just because what you read sounds impossible! YOU are not the judge of what is truth and what is fiction in Scripture! God's Word is true, whether we can accept what we read at face value or not! Do you believe that Metushelach (Methuselah) lived to be 969 years old? If not, why not? If so, then why can't those who survive into the Golden Age, the Kingdom of the Messiah Yeshua`, live comparable lifespans? It would only make sense that people before the Flood, having lifespans 13 times longer than we have today, would have comparable time periods for puberty! Did you know that a Jackson's Chameleon or rather a Johnston's Chameleon, being a reptile, would continue to grow if it could survive longer? Did you know that if you could allow a lizard like a Johnston's Chameleon to grow 13 times longer than it does now, it could grow to 22 feet in length and answer to the name of Triceratops?!
There are good REASONS just to accept the Bible literally! The thousand years may have been mentioned only in the book of Revelation, but it was mentioned SIX TIMES in one chapter! That HAS to count for something!
It will be a different world indeed when the Messiah is literally reigning from His father David's throne in the land of Isra'el! Then, He will become the King of Kings, a title once attributed to Nebuchadnezzar meaning "world emperor." He will literally be kings' King! Do you think the Scriptures say in vain, "for He must rule until all enemies are placed under His feet?" The last enemy that is defeated will be Death itself and this, too, is mentioned in Revelation 20 as well as in I Cor. 15:26:
1 Cor 15:19-28
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
KJV
Verse 28 is what happens at the end of the second earth and the re-forming of the surface into a third earth and its accompanying atmosphere: Yeshua` Himself, the Son, will be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, God the Father, that God may be all in all!
It's not that difficult to accept the Scriptures if you can just quit trying to force them into your own theological mold.
Retrobyter
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 9/1/2008 10:19:44 AM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 487
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChristopherJ
This question presupposes the premillennial dispensationalist interpretation of a future literal 1,000 year period. I much prefer either the postmillennial or amillennial positions, and see the 1,000 years (mentioned ONLY in Revelation 20 -
That's not the only place it is mentioned.
Like others have posted, Isaiah chronicles much of what this still-to-be realized peaceful state will be like.
Furthermore, while just about every scholar I've read says there is no mention of the Church Age in prophecy, I beg to differ. In as much as a day symbolically represents a thousand years (and accordingly, the Millennium is a Sabbath millennium) God foretold both in Hosea:
HOS 6:2 After two days he will revive us;
on the third day he will restore us,
that we may live in his presence.
Furthermore, about the book of Revelation, what it does is reveal.
The very name comes from apokalypsis, in the simplest translation it means revelation, and derives from apokalypto meaning to uncover, reveal. (—Theological Dictionary of the New Testament p.405). The beauty of this book is that it reveals mysteries rather than couch every vision in just symbols, and moreover it also provides an explanation for the symbols used in the vision. The oft heard refrain that Revelation is chock full of symbology and figurative speak is belied by the very nature of the book and that is to reveal. In using various symbols, Revelation builds upon Old Testament themes and prophecy which have generally accepted meanings. Furthermore, the symbolic word pictures the writer conveys are explained in narrative portions within the book for the reader to understand. So rather than dismiss this book, Revelation ought to be embraced by Christians once they are weaned from the milk of the Gospels and clothed in the spiritual raiment to do battle in the world as faithful followers of Christ, because the ultimate conclusion of Revelation is God’s sure judgment for sinners and the reward of life eternal for the righteous that accept the Gospel message.
So it is not a Dispensational issue, but one of looking forward to God literally fulfilling prophecy about the Kingly Messiah just as He literally fulfilled prophecy about the Servant Messiah.
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 9/1/2008 11:47:58 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 350
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Sinner-Saint!
While we may not agree on every point, we do still have a lot in common, my brother! I'm not as dogmatic about your interpretation of Hoshea 6:2, but it IS plausible.
However, the rest of what you said, IMO, is RIGHT ON THE MONEY!
Amen! and Amen!
Retrobyter
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RE: 1,000 year reign - 9/4/2 | | | |
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