RE: 1,000 year reign

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Aphobos -> RE: 1,000 year reign (9/9/2008 6:28:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint Why are so many nations Islamic? Why aren't all nations Christian? Indeed, is there any nation which rules on a Christian basis? Even Europe, the cradle of Christianity is a bastion of secularism today... If you want to point to us; Why isn't America following God's moral laws? Although Christ commanded us to proselytize, will we ever fulfill this requirement before Jesus comes back again? No. Please don't confuse my position with post-millennialism. I do not believe that things will just get "better and better" until Christ returns. In fact, the wars of the last century have more or less silenced all but the most stubborn post-millennialists. Nor do I believe that nations, as such, will all repent at the preaching of the gospel. Instead, what I think the Great Commission intends is for disciples to me made from all nations, tribes, and tongues. That is the goal of evangelism -- to convert sinners, not goverments. Yes, there is much evil in the world today. Most of it, however, can be explained by the sin nature within man. There is no need to see a devil under every rock and behind every tree. Even so, I do believe that the enemy exerts significant influence in and through our fallen world. Peter tells us as much when he writes: "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings." ( 1 Pet 5:8b-9) As I've said repeatedly, the binding of Satan is not absolute. He is specifically kept from deceiving the nations and uniting them against the church. To that end, his power is limited. At the First Coming, Satan was dealt a tremendous blow. Yet even a wounded animal is dangerous. One final note regarding the decidedly non-Christian nations. While you paint a rather gloomy picture for the present age, consider this: * Every day 60,000 new people come to believe in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. * By the end of today, thousands of new churches will have been started throughout the world. * At present, the Church has about a billion more people than the entire nation of China. * More people were saved this year than were saved in the entire First Century. It's not all gloom and doom, my friend. The Great Commission is being fulfilled under our very noses, not only in the midst of but quite often in spite of this evil world. In Him, ~Aphobos

Sinner-Saint -> RE: 1,000 year reign (9/9/2008 9:20:16 PM)
Well the prophecy concerning the Gospel is not that it be preached, it has, nor that people convert, they have, but that the Word of God be carried to every living person at one time. THAT hasn't happened, ever. In fact, it may not be humanly possible. In Revelation 14:6 we find an Angel does this, and in the sequence-of-events laid out in that parallel account within the book of Revelation, it happens before the Harvest. The thing about the Millennium is that to say it is the Church Age is to nullify specific prophecy in Isaiah and elsewhere which describes a time unlike any now, when people live in the knowledge and presence of the Lord; when Jesus rules with an iron scepter and any nation which does not come to worship at the two proscribed times in Ezekiel will not receive any rain. So the problem with Ammillennialism is that it has to throw out whole portions of the Bible. In Revelation, we find that the first and the second resurrections are set apart by a time: the thousand years of the Millennium. Since the first resurrection has not yet happened, to say that time specified in Revelation is now just doesn't make sense.

Aphobos -> RE: 1,000 year reign (9/10/2008 1:39:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint So the problem with Ammillennialism is that it has to throw out whole portions of the Bible. Yes, I am an Amillennialist. But do you honestly believe that I "throw out whole portions of the Bible"? Come on, now. Let's at least be charitable. As with most doctrinal differences within the church, the "problem" is that we understand the same scriptures a bit differently. We all like to think that our interpretation is correct, but that's not always the case. I know I've been corrected many times in my Christian studies, and have even changed positions on doctrines such as Baptism, the Spiritual Gifts, and Predestination. Have you ever been wrong? I wouldn't accuse you of ignoring large sections of God's Word in order to cling to your eschatology. I do think that you are misunderstanding certain parts of it. Hopefully, we can look at those in turn to see which of us is mistaken about the millennium of Revelation 20. (Who knows? Perhaps we both are!) Sincerely, ~Aphobos

Sinner-Saint -> RE: 1,000 year reign (9/10/2008 9:56:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aphobos But do you honestly believe that I "throw out whole portions of the Bible"? Come on, now. Let's at least be charitable. I don't have the chapters memorized, but quite a few scattered all about Isaiah talk about a time of peace which has been completely unknown. When have lions ate grass? When will children handle snakes? There are several chapters at the end of Ezekiel which spell out in concrete terms with no figurative speech whatsoever how it will be when God is a present reality in Jewish worship. That has never happened either in all of time. When will it happen? Zechariah has interspersed among his end-time chapters, verses and passages which describe a future time with Christ as a present reality. He also talks about a different way of life which will rule people's lives. I don't mean to attack, but when I do look at Millennial passages which describe a time of peace, a Sabbath millennial, and I look at Revelation which spells out a time between two resurrections which is a thousand years long and I read Hosea 6:2 - I have to wonder how anyone could hold onto the Catholic position that God's Kingdom in the form of a 'figurative' Millennial has come upon the earth. They thought so because they were ignorant of the whole world. They were in charge of the Roman Empire and thought they ruled the world. They knew nothing of the Americas or the Han Dynasty in China (which was as large and in many ways more sophisticated than Rome), nor did they understand how large Africa was or how different the culture was in India. I don't think they even knew about Australia or the South Pacific Islands... Now don't start about God's Kingdom has been realized. I've looked into all the various passages concerning God's Kingdom from what Jesus said to the last reference to it and the one thing I cannot pin down with any certainty is exactly when and where it is finally realized. There are just too many conflicting descriptions for us to say. No, I'm talking about real events which have been foretold which have not been realized. Ammillennialism has to ignore all these by explaining them away as being "figurative." Sorry, what has been written is not all figurative. There are real and literal events spelled out which demand a time period all of their own with a whole new set of rules to govern that time and those peoples.

TheDayDrawsNigh -> RE: 1,000 year reign (9/14/2008 6:46:58 PM)
In response to: [Quote] It's not that difficult to accept the Scriptures if you can just quit trying to force them into your own theological mold. Retrobyter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is also my exact reply to your 'private interpretation' of what is said about the '1,000' period of reign the book of Revelation speaks of. (2 Peter 1:20) #1.) YOU are interpreting that to be a LITERAL period of time when actually you contradict yourself by stating (and correctly) that the reign of Christ is ETERNAL. (How then can it also be a LITERAL 1,000 period of time?) #2.) You state "This is the period of time when Satan will be bound up" and you tie that 1,000 period TOGETHER with the '1,000 reign' of verse 4 but err in doing so. YOU are reading more into this than what is allowed. Actually these two thousand year 'pictures/parables' spoken of in Revelation 20 are PICTURES of two seperate events. The binding of Satan for 1,000 years took place at the cross e.g. 12:29, Mark 3:27. As the Bible proves this by telling us in verse 1 of Revelation chapter 20 that this angel (The Greek word 'Angelos' FIRST means: Messenger') and in this case this 'Messenger' with the key to the bottomless pit is proven in Revelation 1:18 as being Jesus. (Because he was victorious in the ressurection) JESUS bound Satan AT THE CROSS. But this '1,000' period of time is NOT literal. We are told "When you SEE the Abomination.... stand in the Holy Place...." (Matt 24:15) THIS signifies the END of the 1,000 year BINDING of Satan and we can know for sure by seeing the absolute disregard for Gods law concerning the Church structure by the Churches this has happened in our day. MUCH longer than just 1,000 years AFTER Christ. And again, when Abel became saved, or Abraham became saved, or Enoch etc...ect.....then for THEM, that 1,000 REIGN WITH Christ spoken of in Revelation 20 has JUST STARTED as in NO WAY a LITERAL period of time. You must understand that what was spoken of in the Bible, especially the book of Revelation is SPIRITUAL and PARABOLIC and sometimes of course, LITERAL. You are just having problems differintiating in your non-biblical interpretation. (Look at 1 Cor 2:13 for directions on correct bible interpretation) You state I am fumbling on scripture but I can easily same the same of you. In fact, you are making the SAME EXACT mistake the Pharisees made in trying to make the Bible say what YOU want. I have NO problem in seeing the LITERAL points the Bible makes, like the Flood of Noah's day (Literal) or a child born of a virgin woman (Literal) or of mankind being created as mankind and not from other forms of life (Literal) but where we read about events taking place IN HEAVEN such as in Revelation 20 then I would be hard pressed to believe this is speaking LITERALY of an event on Earth. The Bible doesn't allow such a foolish interpretation. I would be shaking in my boots if I also believed as you do (any many others for that matter) that believe the Bible teaches: 'All is well, then Jesus will return and RULE ON THIS PRESENT Earth' even though the Bible CLEARLY teaches that Jesus' Kingdom is NOT of this Earth (John 18:36 and the 'WORLD' here includes this present earth...) and the end doesn't have some kind of 'Golden Period' when Jesus rules like some kind of worldly King. Where in Luke 21, or Mathew 24 or Daniel 12 etc...etc... does it speak of this LITERAL '1,000 riegn' when Jesus will be here on THIS EARTH as some kind of worldly king???? It's NOT!!!! The REIGN of Christ spoken of in Revelation 20 which is pictured as a '1,000 reign' is ALSO called 'The FIRST RESSURECTION' (Rev 20:5) You never bring these details into the equation!!!! How is the FIRST RESSURECTION SYNONOMOUS with a LITERAL 1,000 period of time on THIS EARTH??? It's NOT!!! But it IS SYNONOMOUS with the event that takes place when a TRUE BELIEVER IS SAVED!!! THAT is the beggining of the reign WITH CHRIST for that person that will SYMBOLOCALY END when the 'day' of Gods wrath begins on May 21, 2011 and is completed on Oct 21, 2011 when God destroys this present 'world' as we know it with fire as spoken of in 2 Peter 3:10. So you can feel comfortable and safe in your thinking and YOUR private interpretation of scripture but just remember THIS verse: "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as trevail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape" 1 Thes 5:3(This, from the evendence of the context it comes from is in NO DOUBT speaking about those who profess the gospel but don't understand it's spiritual intentions and deny the truth of it. Just like the Pharisees of Jesus' day!)

ChristopherJ -> RE: 1,000 year reign (9/17/2008 9:40:12 PM)
Aphobos, Thanks for all of your posts here... I agree with your interpretation of the 1,000 year millennium as being figurative of the church age, and Satan as now being bound in respect to not being able to deceive the nations anymore or hinder them from receiving the message of salvation. I have bounced back and forth between the amill and postmill position over the past 10 years, I see some good in both views. The one thing I know is I do not see ANY Scriptural basis for the dispensational interpretation of the seven year tribulation, followed by a literal and physical reigning of Christ on the Earth in Jerusalem. He is now ruilng in the Heavens, and in the hearts of His believers. Thanks for your great contribution to this forum... blessings!

Retrobyter -> RE: 1,000 year reign (9/30/2008 10:40:42 PM)
Shalom, Giulia. quote: ORIGINAL: Giulia Okay it speaks of the thousand yr reign after we have received our new glorified bodies. I think there is still something to learn from this about the heare and now. The devil is always around seeking whom he can devour and he is also very present in the church as the bible even speaks of the tares and the wheat and to watch not to weed out the tares. Yet judgement begins in the house of God. The house of God is messed up. Many use the OT when it suits them and many also use the Word of God for an occasion for the flesh. There is much confusion because many teach people to stive for the abundance of the flesh and know nothing of the abundance of the Spirit. Or perhaps they know something of it but choose to ignore it because it is too hard and perhaps they would not get as many followers. Jesus did not die so we could have abundance in the flesh. He died for something much greater than what the carnal eye sees and way more than the flesh could be comfortable with. People only see the flesh so this becomes a dilema for preachers because they want confirmation and to be justified in a visible manner. This leads to a concotion of all sorts of unrighteous doctrine. This also brings the devil in a lot closer because they fall for the same old trick of having all the kingdoms of the world and losing their souls. The devil is right there loosed among us and causing decay because no matter how many visible blessings one has, it does not equate to spiritual abundance. Resisting the blessings of the world is like the opposition which makes us stronger in Him, yet this is not always visible. Jesus did not want to be king in this world and fled when they tried making Him king. He did not want His ego to be pandered to as that is His very enemy. In this day and age we are encouraged to take that position up but it forefits our spiritual blessing as it gives us a temporary one which manifests in positions of might and possessions. Nothing temporary will bring us a lasting blessing. Only resistance to instant gratification and our own desires as we obey the high call which Jesus Christ has called us to. When a pastor has no time for his own people that is when he should resign because God did not appoint other cousellors to do his job. He appointed him to those sheep. Yet it happens often that a pastor has no time for his sheep. Since when does a pastor have no time for his sheep? If this was to happen in a farm the wolves would devour them all and it is not heard of because that is his job. Yet it happens all the time in this age. BTW I recall posting a thread specifically about our new bodies and people tried to shoot me down like I was inventing a new doctrine. Ummmm.... Did you understand that the parable of the wheat and tares, one of the parables of Matthew 13, is NOT about the "church?" It's about the KINGDOM, namely when Yeshua` haMashiach is literally reigning from His father David's throne in Yerushalayim, Yisra'el, STARTING with the Millennium, but continuing on throughout eternity! Yeshua` (Jesus) did not flee, not wanting to be "king in this world." You misunderstood the point: Here's the context: John 6:4-21 4 And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh. 5 When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? 6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. 8 One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, 9 There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? 10 And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 11 And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. 12 When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. 13 Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. 14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world. 15 When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. 16 And when even was now come, his disciples went down unto the sea, 17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them. 18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew. 19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid. 20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went. KJV This was also re-iterated in Matt. 11:12 in Yeshua`s speech to the Jews about Yochanan the Submerger: Matt 11:11-19 11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows, 17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. KJV Yeshua` came into this world to "reign from his father David's throne!" Check out Luke 1:30-33: Luke 1:30-33 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. KJV (This is also proof, btw, that Yeshua` was NOT just to reign over the house of Isra'el [Jacob] for a mere thousand years, as some who believe in the Millennium teach! "...and of His kingdom there shall be no end!") His intention has always been, and still is, to reign in Yerushalayim! The problem was that He fully intended to be accepted on a one-by-one basis, not to be forced to be a king by some rabble who really didn't have the authority to make Him Isra'el's King! He had to be anointed to be King by the leaders of Y'hudah and then by those of Shomron (Samaria), the rest of Yisra'el still in the Land, although half-bred with the Gentiles. When Yeshua` said, "My kingdom is not of this world" in John 18:36, the word for "world" there is the Greek word "cosmos" meaning "world-SYSTEM!" What He was saying was that His kingdom would not be like the other kingdoms of this world-system! His kingdom would not be given to greed or politics or corruption, like all other nations in this world-system are. He was NOT saying that His kingdom would be off-world or away from the earth! That is a popular misconception. Please don't think of this post as an attack on you; I'm only trying to re-train readers to realize that Yeshua` is coming back to this earth for the purpose of literally reigning over a nation, specifically Isra'el, and over tributaries to His nation, as one by one they join His commonwealth. Retrobyter

Retrobyter -> RE: 1,000 year reign (9/30/2008 11:34:21 PM)
Shalom, jeffweeder. quote: ORIGINAL: jeffweeder quote: Does the Bible teach the 1K yr. reign is here on Earth or in Heaven? On earth. rev 20 quote: Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. rev 5 quote: "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. 10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." So far, you are right on the money. But then, you asked an unfortunate question: quote: ORIGINAL: jeffweeder Doesnt this suggest that the first ressurection is when we are born again.? All who believe are forgiven and escape the judgement---The second death cant hurt you--now. The only way to proove it would be to show that the second coming of Christ is a post millenium event. No, this is a flaw in logical progression. While it is true that the second death, the lake of fire and sulfur, can't hurt us in our resurrected bodies, WE ARE NOT THERE, YET! Quite frankly, the second death COULD hurt our mortal, corruptible, weak bodies. The flaw you made is that you are jumping the gun when you say, "The second death can't hurt you now." We may have the PROMISE of protection, but we will only be so protected AFTER the resurrection of the just and the transformation of our mortal bodies. quote: ORIGINAL: jeffweeder quote: "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." quote: Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. In these verses, you neglected to show WHEN the Millennium would occur in respect to these passages. First, the Millennium will be AFTER verses 12 and 13 of Revelation 22 because these are SUMMATIONS of other things already written in the Revelation: 1:8, 1:11; and 21:6. Furthermore, Revelation 20 is QUITE clear as to the timing of the Millennium being AFTER the first resurrection of the just, but BEFORE the second death. quote: ORIGINAL: jeffweeder 2pet 3 quote: But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells. Peter makes no mention of a millenium, he sees the second coming (his promise)being associated with the new heaven and new earth--where righteousness dwells only. Actually, Peter DOES mention the millennium by the terms "the day of the Lord" and "the day of God." The reason why he does not expound on this day is that his perspective is much broader, including the time before the Flood as well as the eternal state AFTER the second death. (See my avatar above.) quote: ORIGINAL: jeffweeder This was our Lords promise "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 "And you know the way where I am going." Yes, and you should note that this, too, is talking about the building of the New Jerusalem, the Tent of God's Presence, which may very well still be going on. The New Jerusalem does not descend to the earth until AFTER the second death. Retrobyter

Retrobyter -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/1/2008 12:49:47 AM)
Shalom, tony.nz. Sorry this has taken a while to get to, but I have been out of commission a few weeks with my ankle in the air while it mends from being broken. You said, ... quote: ORIGINAL: tony.nz ... Rather than this, which is more an issue of semantics, I would like to explore your advocacy of the idea that the Messiah will return, and gain recognition by a gradual process. And that some will recognise Him immediately, and some would not. Now, I have had it in my head, that His return would be sudden, dramatic, inexplicable and terrifying to the world, and immediately recognisable by all His true followers. You seem to place your view on your interpretation of the parable of the mustard seed. I can assure you however, that my alternative interpretation is not based on mistakenly associating Israel with the Church, as in replacement theology. Rather, as has been explained, it is through the growth of the church that the Holy Spirit has made the Kingdom of Heaven known, and it is indeed now a great tree that "fills the whole earth", or perhaps almost meets that description at the present time. So, in summary, I think the difference is that you see the fulfillment of the growth of this tree as being consumated during the millenial reign, I see it as being consumated during the church age. Now, in Matthew 24:23 to 26, Yeshua tells us not to be decieved by people who tell us that He has returned, or that He is in a particular place, or who say "here He is". Then, in vs 27, He makes the dramatic counterpoint. His return will be as lightning, which comes from the east and flashes to the west. I see verses 28 and 29 as returning to a description of the preceeding period, and in vs 30 He reiterates and expands upon His sudden and dramatic return. "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory"! There is some more explanation, and the in vs 44 it is summed up, "the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect"! Following on, we have the parable of the ten virgins, which clearly illustrate that it is then too late for those who were not prepared. Therefore, the mustard seed must at this stage, have consumated it's growth. Now, all this is devastating for the likes of Jehovah Witnesses, who tell us that Yeshua has been in hiding since 1914, or the various new age groups who from time to time promote some guru as a person in the name or type of Christ. Happy to explore this concept with you! This is my kind of fun! Yes, you are exactly right about the differences in our interpretations of Matthew 13, but there are other reasons I have for my conclusions, and I will share them with you momentarily. First, let me assure you that I have nothing to do with the Jehovah's Witnesses. While I may like a few of their conclusions about the future, they fail miserably when it comes to God's justification of sinners through the great exchange of II Cor. 5:21 (often mistakenly called "personal salvation"). Now, that out of the way, let's begin: Consider Dani'el's interpretation of N'vukhadnetzar's dream: Dan 2:31-45 31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. 32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king. 37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. 38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise. 41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. KJV Now, zoom in to verses 34-35 and their interpretation in verse 44. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ..... 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. This is another location where the initial kingdom that the God of heaven, likened to a stone small enough only to strike the feet of the image, GREW until it became a great mountain, filling the whole earth. (I kind of think it was shaped like a small pyramid that grew until it filled all the known land at the time of N'vukhadnetzar. After all, it was mountain-shaped. I also like this idea because I envision the New Jerusalem to be pyramid-shaped, 1500 miles x 1500 miles x 1500 miles.) Then, consider the vision Dani'el had in chapter 7: Dan 7:9-14 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. 10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. 12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. KJV Although the growth of the kingdom is harder to see here, the Son of man is given "a kingdom," which progresses until "all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him." It ends with "His dominion is an everlasting dominion (reminiscent of Luke 1:30-33), which shall not pass away (diminish), and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed." Now, let's look at Yesha`yahu's prophecy: Isa 9:1-7 1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations. 2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. 3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. 4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian. 5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire. 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. KJV Now, some of these verses were fulfilled during the Messiah's first coming, but the rest will be fulfilled at His second coming. Again, looking at verse 7, you can see that His government and His peace have a progression--they increase! Furthermore, the kingdom is said to be ordered and to be established with judgement and justice; such organization and solidification normally take some time to accomplish. Look at Yesha`yahu's prophecy later on: Isa 60:1-22 1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. 4 Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side. 5 Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee. 6 The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. 7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory. 8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? 9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee. 10 And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. 11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought. 12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted. 13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious. 14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel. 15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. 16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. 17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. 18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. 19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. 20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. 21 Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. 22 A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. KJV Many of these events will take some time to accomplish: The gathering of His people from all other nations into the Land, the caravans, the kings of the earth coming and going, the building up of the walls, the building and beautification of the Sanctuary (the Temple), a "little one shall become a thousand," a "small one [shall become] a strong nation, all take time! I want so badly to get into Zechariah 12-14 as well, but I'll stop here for now and let this gel a little. GET EXCITED ABOUT THE KINGDOM TO COME! After all, a thousand years is a LONG time! Surely SOMETHING happens during that time period! Retrobyter

Retrobyter -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/1/2008 9:57:17 PM)
Shalom tonynz. Okay, I can't stand it; I'm getting into Zechariah 12-14: First, here's the full text from the KJV: Zech 12 1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. KJV Zech 13 1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. 3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth. 4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive: 5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth. 6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. 7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. KJV Zech 14 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. 16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowl's before the altar. 21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts. KJV Now, there's a GREAT link between Zechariah 12 and Luke 3. If I've already told you, maybe review what I said. If you've never heard it, I'd be happy to share it with you. Retrobyter

whisperingwaters -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/2/2008 2:50:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter Now, there's a GREAT link between Zechariah 12 and Luke 3. If I've already told you, maybe review what I said. If you've never heard it, I'd be happy to share it with you. Retrobyter I'd like to hear the link between those verses you speak of. All these verses about Jerusalem and Christ get me excited showing how close the day draws nigh.

.ABBA. -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/2/2008 10:15:44 AM)
G'Day Retrobyter,, Is this what you are linking in those two verse you have mentioned? quote: 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Luke 3 16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: 17Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. Rev 1 7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. yours In Christ,, God Bless

Lapidoth -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/2/2008 12:17:15 PM)
quote: As with most doctrinal differences within the church, the "problem" is that we understand the same scriptures a bit differently. We all like to think that our interpretation is correct, but that's not always the case. I know I've been corrected many times in my Christian studies, and have even changed positions on doctrines such as Baptism, the Spiritual Gifts, and Predestination. Have you ever been wrong? My stand is: I'm never wrong, just misinformed. LOL. I have changed my mind on many things as more information is given. Or, someone causes me to look at something from a different vantage point. Not that I suddenly agree with them, but because of the information I may change my view completely and still disagree with the one I'm discussing something with. I think for the most part, most all Christians stand "firm" on the key issues of Christianity. Some things are not up for debate. It's plainly stated and can not be altered. It can be denied, but not altered.

Retrobyter -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/3/2008 12:08:47 AM)
Shalom, whisperingwaters and you too, .IC.! quote: ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters quote: ORIGINAL: Retrobyter Now, there's a GREAT link between Zechariah 12 and Luke 3. If I've already told you, maybe review what I said. If you've never heard it, I'd be happy to share it with you. Retrobyter I'd like to hear the link between those verses you speak of. All these verses about Jerusalem and Christ get me excited showing how close the day draws nigh. Here you go: Zech 12:10-14 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. KJV When I first read these verses, I was thinking about the family of the house of Levi and was thinking about the brother in this list: Gen 35:23-26 23 The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun: 24 The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin: 25 And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali: 26 And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padan-aram. KJV If that was the brother in this list, then I supposed that David would be a representative of the house of Y'hudah (Judah), but then I was at a loss. How do the names Nathan and Shimei fit into this list?! Then, the Lord led me to read Z'kharyah (Zechariah) 12 and Luke 3 in the Complete Jewish Bible. Here they are for your investigation: Z'kharyah 12:9-14 9 "When that day comes, I will seek to destroy all nations attacking Yerushalayim; 10 and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they pierced." They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son. 11 When that day comes, there will be great mourning in Yerushalayim, mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon in the Megiddo Valley. 12 Then the land will mourn, each family by itself -- the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Natan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the Shim`i by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the remaining family each by itself, and their wives by themselves. CJB Luke 3:23-38 23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli, 24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef, 25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai, 26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim`i, of Yosef, of Yodah, 27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z'rubavel, of Sh'altiel, of Neri, 28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er, 29 of Yeshua, of Eli`ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi, 30 of Shim`on, of Y'hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim, 31 of Mal'ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David, 32 of Yishai, of `Oved, of Bo`az, of Salmon, of Nachshon, 33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y'hudah, 34 of Ya`akov, of Yitz'chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor, 35 of S'rug, of Re`u, of Peleg, of `Ever, of Shelah, 36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh, 37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal'el, of Keinan, 38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God. CJB Do you see? THE SAME NAMES ARE FOUND IN THE LINEAGE OF LUKE 3! The families are not horizontally related; they are VERTICALLY related!!! The common belief on the genealogy found in Luke as opposed to that of Matthew is that Matthew's account is the lineage of Yosef (Joseph) while the one in Luke is the lineage of Miryam (Mary). Now, look at the words again of Z'kharyah's prophecy: "...and they will look to me, whom they pierced." They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son. 11 When that day comes, there will be great mourning in Yerushalayim, mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon in the Megiddo Valley. 12 Then the land will mourn, each family by itself -- Each family will mourn for the Messiah, Yeshua`, "as one mourns for an only son and be in bitterness like the bitterness for a firstborn son" because He LITERALLY IS their son!!! He is the son, the progeny, the heir, of each of these families, a great grandson, however far removed! All of a sudden, the prophecy makes sense! Now, one last point: THIS is the passage from which Yeshua` quoted in Matt. 24:30: It's pretty well known in KJV; here's how it's worded in the CJB: Matt. 24:30 30 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn (Zechariah 12:10, 14), and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory (Daniel 7:13-14)." CJB (boldface his, with embedded footnotes) The interpretation of this verse, therefore, is much more specific than many theologians have generalized. It's not "all the families of the earth" as the whole globe; it's all the families of the LAND, specifically, the Land of Isra'el! Just like our word "earth" can mean the whole globe or dirt, the Greek word "ge" and the Hebrew word "eretz" can refer to the whole globe, or a region, or the ground, or the dirt of the ground! So, that's why it was interpreted from the Greek into the English in this way. However, based on where it was quoted, the context of the prophecy tells us it should have been interpreted as "Land." Isn't this awesome? Now do you see who mourns and why? They aren't mourning because of the "judgments that they will have to endure," as some commentaries suggest; they are mourning because Yeshua`, the Messiah of God, their own flesh and blood, was crucified when He should have been accepted and made Isra'el's KING! They are mourning because He is their own grandson so horribly mistreated! They are mourning the YEARS, DECADES, CENTURIES, and even MILLENNIA that were wasted because their own children, nephews, and nieces, the Jews, could not accept the Heir to the throne of Daviyd!!! What a horrible loss! Now, why were these four names mentioned in particular? Well, Daviyd the King is the first and greatest of the kings of Isra'el and Y'hudah, who began collecting the materials for the Temple. Natan points to the direction among Daviyd's children from whom the mother's heart and the actual flesh and blood would come. He is also a contemporary of King Shlomo (Solomon), when the Temple was actually built. Levi was the point near the time of the destruction of the Temple, and I believe that Shim`i was a contemporary of Z'kharyah, who prophecied for the 2nd Temple's construction completed. Anyway, that's the GREAT link! Retrobyter

Retrobyter -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/3/2008 12:16:09 AM)
Shalom, .IC. And, yes, that is also what is quoted in Rev. 1:7. Same thing! Makes a difference in how you look at these verses, now, doesn't it? Retrobyter

.ABBA. -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/3/2008 10:47:24 PM)
G'Day All, Shalom Retrobyter,, quote: Makes a difference in how you look at these verses, now, doesn't it? Yes it does and thankyou for pointing out those verses. What i am finding after reading what you have said is the wonderfull story of the prodigal son and his return to his father estate after being in a distant land. Now while it may not be in context , it's basic foundation is reminding me of what you have just spoken to us here. For if the older brother is the Church and the younger is Israel,, the story of the Son and his return to his father in some ways highlights what you have just told us. Luke 15 The Prodigal Son 11And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. 22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. What i see here in some ways is the pouring out of the Lords Spirit on Israel,, as is the moment the father throws his arms around his son giving him his robe and ring and shoes, with a great feast to follow. So what a great day it will be when Israel mourns and returns to the Lord who they had pierced,, and the joy and emotion the father shows on that day to his Son. yours In Christ,, God Bless

Retrobyter -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/4/2008 4:00:33 PM)
Shabbat shalom, .IC. Yes, good point! Amen to that! Retrobyter P.S. - I'll just add... Rom 11:11-15 11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? KJV Resurrection comes with their sweet return! R.

Lapidoth -> RE: 1,000 year reign (10/6/2008 2:04:48 PM)
quote: 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? KJV Resurrection comes with their sweet return! Hallelujah!!!!!

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