My letter to my pastor and his response (Full Version)

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Sonrise -> My letter to my pastor and his response (6/25/2008 3:07:09 PM)

Hi,
I emailed my pastor onand today he replied, both emails are immediately below. He teaches that we can indeed be free of sickness and disease and "heaven now" doctrine. I read his response and do greatly appreciate that he replied with scripture. Can I get some feedback from him and how I should respond. Keep in mind, I do believe that our God is a God that did, does and can heal, so that's not in question. The key "debate" is weather God allows sickness and chooses not to heal at times. Please use the scripture that he provided to agree with or refute. Thanks to all. Sonrise





Pastor Orie,

I'll try and be brief because I'm sure that you're very busy. I've been doing a lot of reading and studying the Word and I came across this tonight. It peeked my interest. I've come to the conclusion that I don't care if doctrine is WOF or Fundamentalist Baptist I only care if it's biblical. Please read this following thread prayerfully and carefully and tell me what you think.

Thanks for your time, Bobby

http://forums.crosswalk.com/%3a%3a_Does_Isaiah_53%3a5_guarantee_our_healing_today%3f/m_3549412/mpage_1/tm.htm#1






Bobby:
Great question(s).
Keep pressing in to the Word.
I would enjoy breakfast some time and talk through this area in more detail. I am just going to send a bit of info to you.

Isa 53:5
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed. NKJV

OT:7495
OT:7495 ap*r* ‎rapha' (raw-faw'); or raphah (raw-faw'); a primitive root; properly, to mend (by stitching), i.e. (figuratively) to cure:

KJV - cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See
This word Healed (7495) is used 67 X’s in O.T. Here are a few of the references.
Gen.20:17, 50:2, Ex. 15:26, 21:19, Lev. 13:18,37, 14:3,48 Num.12:13, Deut.28:27,35, 32:39,



1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. KJV

NT:2390
NT:2390 ‎i)a/omai ‎iaomai (ee-ah'-om-ahee); middle voice of apparently a primary verb; to cure (literally or figuratively):

KJV - heal, make whole.
This N.T. word healed (2390) is used 26 x’s. Here are some of the references.
Mt. 8:8,13, 13:15, 15:28, 5:29, Lu.9:2,11,42, Acts 9:34, 10:38, 28:8,27 Heb. 12:13, Ja.5:16


This is a verse from Mt. referencing the Isaiah word also.
Matt 8:16-17
16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:
"He Himself took our infirmities And bore our sicknesses."* NKJV

Call my secretary Linda and set up a time where we can look at this more in detail.
Caution, on the internet research. You will be exposed to a lot of unbelief.
Thanks for pressing in and searching.



earthless -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/25/2008 3:28:29 PM)

Send him the link(or copy and paste my OP to him via email) to my perspective on the two passages he is using for the bogus teaching: HERE



Sonrise -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/25/2008 4:39:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

Send him the link(or copy and paste my OP to him via email) to my perspective on the two passages he is using for the bogus teaching: HERE


Haha Earthless,
You're either sleep deprived or in a rush. There's two correspondences in my post; the 1st one from me to my pastor which includes a link. I sent it on Monday. The second one was from him today in response to my post and thread link. Look at the link I provided. [:D]



earthless -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/25/2008 6:11:23 PM)

Sorry was in a rush! [8D]

Sad to see he willfully ignores the context of Scripture and plain old common sense (we all get sick and we all die).



tony.nz -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/25/2008 7:23:37 PM)

I agree Earthless, the context of the scripture is spiritual healing and present tense. Although I am not certain that it does not also refer to physical healing, in that sometimes the physical follows the spiritual, as indicated in the verse in matthew. And, when we do recieve miraculous physical healing by the sovereign will of God, it is only through the power of Christ in us, the body of Christ. And, Christ is only in us because of the cross, that sacrifice which Isaiah refers to. So, in a very real sense, "by His stripes", we are physically healed (sometimes).

Having said that, I certainly join you in disagreeing with the claim that we will be healed in every instance. To claim that we are healed because of our faith or lack of it, or our level of spirituality, or righteousness, or because we know the right scripture to remind God of, takes away the glory from God. And, I suspect that has something to do with the reason that manifestations of the healing of God are not more common than they are today. If everybody who I prayed for was healed, I would soon be thinking that I was pretty hot! How easy would it be to forget that it has nothing to do with me, and all to do with Christ in us, a temple that could be cleansed only by and through the power of the blood of Christ. Perhaps I would, God forbid, even start charging people for it![:o]

I am not aware of any ministry that claims 100% healing. I have seen and heard the claim "you have your healing, just keep believing and it will come if you keep having enough faith". This is a contradiction. A person is either healed, or not. And, it sets people up for feeling unworthy, or a failure, when the healing does not manifest. We do not know how or why God heals at times, and at times does not. So no, there is no scripture we can repeat as a magic mantra.



tony.nz -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/25/2008 9:32:30 PM)

I have been thinking about this further. Our physical bodies are still subject to the law of sin and death. That is, we grow old, get sick, have accidents or homicides, and die. God can and does on occassions intervene supernaturally, to protect or heal us. But, not of right, nor every time. What we are promised is that we will sow a physical body (in death or by rapture/transformation), and reap a spiritual body. In this way, we are healed by the death of Christ on the cross, both spiritually and bodily.

If we claim a "right" to healing, and then we are not, what then? Do we claim that God has robbed us?



earthless -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/25/2008 9:41:04 PM)

Hi Tony,

Thank you for your comments - did you read the other half of my reply on this topic? It is HERE



csl7037 -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/26/2008 11:49:09 AM)

With all due respect to earthless, your pastor has no clue who this guy is! In reality, we really don't either but we've read enough posts from him and know enough of him on this level to put some weight to what he says. You really shouldn't have just linked to a post, though, if you really want to discuss this with your Pastor. Take what earthless is saying, learn it, study some more, and then write your own explanation to the Pastor or meet with him (well prepared). He was absolutely correct to caution you about internet research. You can't believe everything you read. And even if you know and trust the source, you can't expect him to have any reason to.

But, I also have to say, I wouldn't expect some light bulb to go off over your Pastor's head over breakfast. I was raised with this WOF stuff and the only thing that can snap someone back into balance is reality...like when LIFE smacks you in the face with reality. To an extent, I believe the Lord humors us in our misunderstandings and this includes "Charasmania" because most really are sincere and love and and trying to serve the Lord. But at some point, everyone is confronted with a situation where God asserts His sovereignty because it's time for us to grow up or just because it's not all about us! You reach a crossroads with this kind of thinking where you can either let go of all the arguments and (misused) scripture you've learned so well and admit that God is God and I am not . . . or you stubbornly go down a road of delusion and rebellion.



mcleod -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/27/2008 3:33:42 PM)

The Pastor needs to further his education. The day that you close your eyes for the last time. Which I pray that you have faith in Son of God for whom that passage is written about. But when you receive your new body. Guess what? You are no longer in this corrupted body. This what Paul was talking about in Philippians 2, when stating. That he was wrestling staying here or going to be with the Lord.
Sitting in prison and having health issues at the same time. To know that you have not caused any great harm to anyone. Has to be quite a strain on the mind.



Sonrise -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/27/2008 9:40:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037

With all due respect to earthless, your pastor has no clue who this guy is! In reality, we really don't either but we've read enough posts from him and know enough of him on this level to put some weight to what he says. You really shouldn't have just linked to a post, though, if you really want to discuss this with your Pastor. Take what earthless is saying, learn it, study some more, and then write your own explanation to the Pastor or meet with him (well prepared). He was absolutely correct to caution you about internet research. You can't believe everything you read. And even if you know and trust the source, you can't expect him to have any reason to.

But, I also have to say, I wouldn't expect some light bulb to go off over your Pastor's head over breakfast. I was raised with this WOF stuff and the only thing that can snap someone back into balance is reality...like when LIFE smacks you in the face with reality. To an extent, I believe the Lord humors us in our misunderstandings and this includes "Charasmania" because most really are sincere and love and and trying to serve the Lord. But at some point, everyone is confronted with a situation where God asserts His sovereignty because it's time for us to grow up or just because it's not all about us! You reach a crossroads with this kind of thinking where you can either let go of all the arguments and (misused) scripture you've learned so well and admit that God is God and I am not . . . or you stubbornly go down a road of delusion and rebellion.


Your post kinda confuses me. The thread that Earthless made provided numerous scriptures and explanations of them. These specific verses deal with direct WOF doctrine and help refute them. This has nothing to do with Earthless, the Word is the Word. Of course I know you can't believe everything you read online, that was a very condescending comment.

Over the last month and a half my pastor has made these comments" you have a born again mind and a born again spirit and I believe that your mind won't be born again until you get to heaven" "Heaven Now thinking lines up with the scripture that says Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven", "we are already 1/3rd perfect". These are just a small sample of the things that he is preaching that I believe to be in direct opposition of the Bible. I read scripture and read threads in this paritcular forum because they are very relevant to my situation with my church. is it wrong to ask for mor verses to refute WOF doctrine?



csl7037 -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/28/2008 7:33:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonrise
Of course I know you can't believe everything you read online, that was a very condescending comment.


Not meant to be. Just pointing out that just pulling something straight from the internet is just giving him a big opening to not take it (or you) seriously. He wouldn't have had the "don't believe everything you read" out to take in response to you if you'd used Earthless' (and other) information in your own words.



Sonrise -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/28/2008 12:31:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonrise
Of course I know you can't believe everything you read online, that was a very condescending comment.


Not meant to be. Just pointing out that just pulling something straight from the internet is just giving him a big opening to not take it (or you) seriously. He wouldn't have had the "don't believe everything you read" out to take in response to you if you'd used Earthless' (and other) information in your own words.



Are you kidding me? That's the WOF mantra right along with "Touch not Gods annointed" "Can't put God in a box", etc. The scriptures were right there and he said to be careful with what I read. The only context that he can reference that comment with is the link that I provided. I didn't give him some crazy out there belief. In other words, he responded this way to scripture. Connect the dots.



csl7037 -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/28/2008 12:55:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonrise
Are you kidding me? That's the WOF mantra right along with "Touch not Gods annointed" "Can't put God in a box", etc. The scriptures were right there and he said to be careful with what I read. The only context that he can reference that comment with is the link that I provided. I didn't give him some crazy out there belief. In other words, he responded this way to scripture. Connect the dots.


I the "WOF mantra" mindset (been there, done that), they certainly know the scripture. That's not the problem. Scripture being misappropriated is the problem. Frankly, he's been through all the scripture and all the arguments and can probably run you in circles on that front. He's got his own scripture that he's going to hold on to doggedly. The only thing that can make someone rethink this kind of warped "learning" is reality. Eventually, at some point in his life, his "magic words" and all his faith wont work like he thinks it's supposed to. That's when you're faced with either the entire Bible is wrong - or what you were taught about the Bible was wrong.

Scripture is the argument/basis to use with someone who's really questioning, who really wants to know. When someone "knows" scripture and thinks they already understand and you're the one missing it (especially someone on authority like this), quoting scripture at them will be an endless cycle.

The best conversation would probably be one based on real life scenarios - "why did this happen if the Bible really means this?" To which the response will usually be a "lack of faith" or something silly. If you have adequate examples (Paul being one!), it'll be hard for him to really explain why the "scriptures" or the person's "faith" really "failed" them...reality is God is God and we're not...that's where WOF goes off the reservation and that's what we all have to come to grips with at some point.



Sonrise -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/28/2008 2:05:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonrise
Are you kidding me? That's the WOF mantra right along with "Touch not Gods annointed" "Can't put God in a box", etc. The scriptures were right there and he said to be careful with what I read. The only context that he can reference that comment with is the link that I provided. I didn't give him some crazy out there belief. In other words, he responded this way to scripture. Connect the dots.


I the "WOF mantra" mindset (been there, done that), they certainly know the scripture. That's not the problem. Scripture being misappropriated is the problem. Frankly, he's been through all the scripture and all the arguments and can probably run you in circles on that front. He's got his own scripture that he's going to hold on to doggedly. The only thing that can make someone rethink this kind of warped "learning" is reality. Eventually, at some point in his life, his "magic words" and all his faith wont work like he thinks it's supposed to. That's when you're faced with either the entire Bible is wrong - or what you were taught about the Bible was wrong.

Scripture is the argument/basis to use with someone who's really questioning, who really wants to know. When someone "knows" scripture and thinks they already understand and you're the one missing it (especially someone on authority like this), quoting scripture at them will be an endless cycle.

The best conversation would probably be one based on real life scenarios - "why did this happen if the Bible really means this?" To which the response will usually be a "lack of faith" or something silly. If you have adequate examples (Paul being one!), it'll be hard for him to really explain why the "scriptures" or the person's "faith" really "failed" them...reality is God is God and we're not...that's where WOF goes off the reservation and that's what we all have to come to grips with at some point.


Agree 100%. Although one could argue that Job was OT, therefore no longer applicable and scripture doesn't explicitly say that Pauls "thorn in the side" was physical. I've heard that one before.



csl7037 -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/28/2008 8:52:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonrise
Agree 100%. Although one could argue that Job was OT, therefore no longer applicable and scripture doesn't explicitly say that Pauls "thorn in the side" was physical. I've heard that one before.


True. But I think it only makes sense that it was a physical ailment of some sort. IMO, it's only explained away because of it's inconvenience. But people deep into this theology will "name and claim" a lot more than physical healing...it just doesn't wash. And you don't have to look hard to find modern-day Jobs - Stephen Curtis Chapman comes to mind. I could/would point to my mother who raised me to claim a "hedge of protection" around me and angels with me everywhere (etc) and was killed out of the blue in a car accident. That's what I mean about eventually reality hits you in the face. I struggled for a LONG time with all the verses I kept replaying in my head that, in my grief, just seemed like big ole lies! Finally one day I had to come to ask myself if the Bible was wrong or maybe I was. It's a scarey place to be and clinging to this twisted line of theology is just setting yourself up for a major ugly crisis. God is patient with us to a point but, I guess, sometimes it takes a crisis in one form or another to get some of us to grow up.



Sonrise -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/28/2008 10:42:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: csl7037

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonrise
Agree 100%. Although one could argue that Job was OT, therefore no longer applicable and scripture doesn't explicitly say that Pauls "thorn in the side" was physical. I've heard that one before.


True. But I think it only makes sense that it was a physical ailment of some sort. IMO, it's only explained away because of it's inconvenience. But people deep into this theology will "name and claim" a lot more than physical healing...it just doesn't wash. And you don't have to look hard to find modern-day Jobs - Stephen Curtis Chapman comes to mind. I could/would point to my mother who raised me to claim a "hedge of protection" around me and angels with me everywhere (etc) and was killed out of the blue in a car accident. That's what I mean about eventually reality hits you in the face. I struggled for a LONG time with all the verses I kept replaying in my head that, in my grief, just seemed like big ole lies! Finally one day I had to come to ask myself if the Bible was wrong or maybe I was. It's a scarey place to be and clinging to this twisted line of theology is just setting yourself up for a major ugly crisis. God is patient with us to a point but, I guess, sometimes it takes a crisis in one form or another to get some of us to grow up.



But at one point does the theology cross over from, "needing to grow up" into full fledged heresy? Over the last 2 months my pastor has said that we are 1/3 perfect already, alluding to our "spirit man" (I nudged my wife and dad and said that if we're only 1/3 perfect then that makes us imperfect), heaven now thinking means that we are suppose to have heaven on earth (due to the verse that I previously mentioned) we have a born again mind and a born again spirit and our mind won't truly be born again until we reach heaven. Almost every Sunday he commands and calls forth things on a regular basis, without the name of Jesus (what is calling forth, anyway) and he tells us that we are righteous and says that when the enemy is trying to bring us down to repeat and thank God that we are righteous. He has also mentioned Lakeland and Ihop in a positive light. This is going on in my church and I don't think these things line up with the Word of God.



csl7037 -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/29/2008 8:38:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonrise
But at one point does the theology cross over from, "needing to grow up" into full fledged heresy? Over the last 2 months my pastor has said that we are 1/3 perfect already, alluding to our "spirit man" (I nudged my wife and dad and said that if we're only 1/3 perfect then that makes us imperfect), heaven now thinking means that we are suppose to have heaven on earth (due to the verse that I previously mentioned) we have a born again mind and a born again spirit and our mind won't truly be born again until we reach heaven. Almost every Sunday he commands and calls forth things on a regular basis, without the name of Jesus (what is calling forth, anyway) and he tells us that we are righteous and says that when the enemy is trying to bring us down to repeat and thank God that we are righteous. He has also mentioned Lakeland and Ihop in a positive light. This is going on in my church and I don't think these things line up with the Word of God.


Yea, I think he's crossed the line. I hate to be a pessimist but I don't see you having a sit-down with this guy to go through scripture being productive at all. He's deep into delusion. I know it's hard to leave but it might be time.

I have similar struggles (the thread about not respecting my pastor was mine). We're really only still at our church because dh doesn't want to leave. My problem isn't with the Pastor really being dogged about something I don't agree with as much as with him not seeming to be sure what he believes himself. But we do have a relationship based on him knowing my background. Since he has come to me several times just to say "wow, I read this last week and thought it was really interesting" (about WOF error). So I think that would give me grounds, if I did ever hear what I thought crossed a line, to bring that up. But he is still the authority in that congregation and if/when I think I can't handle that I need to go. (But, alas I'm stuck in a submission quandry with dh and it's not all about me so here I sit trying to be patient and wait for direction.)

There've been a couple of roads my pastor seemed to flirt with going down that gave me pause. And I've told dh a couple of times, if such and such happens, I'm walking out! But our church doesn't seem to know where we're going and most of what concerns me is coming from other people (and not being addressed adequately by our Pastor because he's confused himself, IMO). But it does sound like yours has crossed a line I wouldn't be willing to cross (again) and is expecting the church to get in lock step with him.



Sonrise -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/29/2008 8:05:25 PM)

Today was, I think the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. Saying how we need to experience what's going on in Lakeland, another elder extolling the virtues of Kenneth Hagin and to top it off, the pastor asked three guys that are part of a group called band of brothers to come up on stage and give their testimony and the last guy ends his testimony with, "...well, [stuff] happens", in front of about 400 people including children. A lot of people gasped, some laughed and others were to shocked to do anything. The pastor was sitting right next to the guy on stage and didn't do or say anything.

[Edited by moderator - TOS 5]



lw9 -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/29/2008 8:31:06 PM)

quote:

Sonrise: Today was, I think the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. Saying how we need to experience what's going on in Lakeland, another elder extolling the virtues of Kenneth Hagin...


That would more than do it for me, too. The leaders have obviously set their course. I would get yourself and your family out of there fast because the things they are delving into are very dangerous.



Kat_D -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/29/2008 8:35:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

quote:

Sonrise: Today was, I think the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. Saying how we need to experience what's going on in Lakeland, another elder extolling the virtues of Kenneth Hagin...


That would more than do it for me, too. The leaders have obviously set their course. I would get yourself and your family out of there fast because the things they are delving into are very dangerous.


Amen!



earthless -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (6/30/2008 7:43:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonrise

Today was, I think the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back. Saying how we need to experience what's going on in Lakeland, another elder extolling the virtues of Kenneth Hagin and to top it off, the pastor asked three guys that are part of a group called band of brothers to come up on stage and give their testimony and the last guy ends his testimony with, "...well, [stuff] happens", in front of about 400 people including children. A lot of people gasped, some laughed and others were to shocked to do anything. The pastor was sitting right next to the guy on stage and didn't do or say anything.

[Edited by moderator - TOS 5]


Time to RUN from that "church".



c_h_b -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (7/1/2008 11:45:48 AM)

IMO, discussions like this which dwell on whether certain passages apply to spiritual or physical healing are chasing rabbits compared to the heart of the matter.

The goal of the Holy Spirit working in our lives is to make us as much like Jesus as we can bear. If physical disease or financial hardship become a method of accomplishing that (usually through our own actions to begin with) then those are what the Holy Spirit will use. I don't believe God intentionally visits sickness or poverty on us to "teach" us: the law of sowing and reaping accounts for that. Despite the belief of some, I don't think Creator micromanages our lives in ways that every good or bad thing that happens is due to direct, divine intervention.

However, if not listening to the Spirit brings us to a certain point of distress, He will certainly use that situation to try to mold us into the Image of Christ. To me, a lot of the discussion regarding WOF or similar doctrine is indeed the playing of children in the market place who don't want to grasp the levels of Christian maturity Paul speaks of when he talks of all things working together on our behalf, or how to live is Christ, or his fervent desire to be like Him in all things.

Straining at the gnats of contextual interpretation on this matter misses the point.



DaveW -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (7/1/2008 3:09:31 PM)

quote:

Over the last 2 months my pastor has said that we are 1/3 perfect already, alluding to our "spirit man"
Anything that tries to overly seperate spirit soul and body is starting to get too close to gnosticism for my taste.

Usually the next step is saying that the body is unimportant, that it is only a shell for the REAL you which is the "spirit man," or some nonsense like that.

This is one of the WOF errors. It is just re-packaged gnosticism that the church declared heresy 1800 years ago.



csl7037 -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (7/1/2008 3:42:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: c_h_b

IMO, discussions like this which dwell on whether certain passages apply to spiritual or physical healing are chasing rabbits compared to the heart of the matter.

The goal of the Holy Spirit working in our lives is to make us as much like Jesus as we can bear. If physical disease or financial hardship become a method of accomplishing that (usually through our own actions to begin with) then those are what the Holy Spirit will use. I don't believe God intentionally visits sickness or poverty on us to "teach" us: the law of sowing and reaping accounts for that. Despite the belief of some, I don't think Creator micromanages our lives in ways that every good or bad thing that happens is due to direct, divine intervention.

However, if not listening to the Spirit brings us to a certain point of distress, He will certainly use that situation to try to mold us into the Image of Christ. To me, a lot of the discussion regarding WOF or similar doctrine is indeed the playing of children in the market place who don't want to grasp the levels of Christian maturity Paul speaks of when he talks of all things working together on our behalf, or how to live is Christ, or his fervent desire to be like Him in all things.

Straining at the gnats of contextual interpretation on this matter misses the point.


I completely agree! Well said. You can spin around in endless circles quoting and mis-quoting scripture back and forth. What WOF most certainly misses (by design?) is the big picture. When the "heart of the matter", becoming like Christ, as you said, is replaced by working the Bible to find something you can claim to get what you want or think you need, you're putting yourself above God. We just were not created for God to serve us and our whims!



earthless -> RE: My letter to my pastor and his response (7/1/2008 3:44:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: c_h_b

IMO, discussions like this which dwell on whether certain passages apply to spiritual or physical healing are chasing rabbits compared to the heart of the matter.

The goal of the Holy Spirit working in our lives is to make us as much like Jesus as we can bear. If physical disease or financial hardship become a method of accomplishing that (usually through our own actions to begin with) then those are what the Holy Spirit will use. I don't believe God intentionally visits sickness or poverty on us to "teach" us: the law of sowing and reaping accounts for that. Despite the belief of some, I don't think Creator micromanages our lives in ways that every good or bad thing that happens is due to direct, divine intervention.

However, if not listening to the Spirit brings us to a certain point of distress, He will certainly use that situation to try to mold us into the Image of Christ. To me, a lot of the discussion regarding WOF or similar doctrine is indeed the playing of children in the market place who don't want to grasp the levels of Christian maturity Paul speaks of when he talks of all things working together on our behalf, or how to live is Christ, or his fervent desire to be like Him in all things.

Straining at the gnats of contextual interpretation on this matter misses the point.


Not when it has to do with heretical teachings packaged for Christian consumption. The preaching of a false jesus and a false god - those not revealed in Scripture.

The skin of the truth stuffed with a lie.



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