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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/8/2008 2:25:48 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Well, technically speaking, I am assuming that there was light before God said "let there be light Technically speaking, mjsn, Genesis 1:2 states that "the earth was empty and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep". How do you reconcile your assumption with that Biblical truth?
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mikejones
Well, I believe the keyword in that passage is "Earth" meaning that the earth had no light, my assumption comes from me assuming that there was light already made, not in the form of a sun however and obviously not on "Earth", I'm assuming Heaven, where Angels and etc exist.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/8/2008 2:42:03 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
quote:
These words, if you like, are universe-based, but only insofar as our universe is based on God.No, I don't like! While words are "real" in that they represent reality, the intelligence behind their design, creation, and usage is certainly not naturally explicable. Human intellect can only result from the Creator's omniscience.
Look again, you see the key clause "based on God"! See what I mean? Perhaps I am not a clear writer. I have been so accused in the past.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/8/2008 2:48:13 PM
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hellohellohi
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drmark,
Also, I don't really have a problem with the things you are saying. i don't think we disagree at all (or very little). I think you just don't quite see that I am interested in wrecking the words themselves and seeing what happens. I think my writing is probably unclear.
The problem is that I think too precisely and parse words almost till they don't mean anything, but then I write imprecisely -- The two are probably related. Oh well.
For instance, I wasn't advocating relativism. Rather I would like to change the meaning of the word subjectivity. Or rather, I have my own sense of it. I dunno. I'm just trying to say new things. Oftentimes, i find that they are wrong. However, it seems helpful to me!
later!
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/8/2008 2:53:01 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
Indeed, this is the very basis of modern science as established in the 1500-1700s.
Actually, I think it is very interesting to consider what science may be like if founded on the proto-Enlightenment thinkers. I need to think more about this.
I think one of the foundations of Enlightenment science, though, is systematic doubt, as applied by Descartes.
What do you think?
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/8/2008 4:36:26 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I think one of the foundations of Enlightenment science, though, is systematic doubt, as applied by Descartes.
What do you think? Not much - the history of philosophy is rather low on my list of interesting subjects . If by "Enlightenment science" you mean the development of the rational basis for experimental observation, then I guess some element of doubt is necessary to the formation of testable hypotheses. All I really know about the "Enlightenment period" is the overwhelming rise of humanism therein and you should already know how negatively I feel about humanism.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/8/2008 4:37:24 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
(hellohellohi) I also understand that the concept "the flesh" seems connected to the universe. So where does one stop and the other begin? I'm asking because I don't know.
(theo) Hello my friend. You have asked a good question. Flesh is connected in the universe as a temporary clothing for sons of God who are men. Though God created Adam in flesh, it was never his intention that flesh and blood would inherit a kingdom intended for spiritual inhabitants. The fact of being with mortality for a clothing, does not make us precious to our maker. Indeed, he stands ready to exchange our clothing of flesh and mortality for an eternal clothing of incorruption and immortality. [II Cor 5:1-4][I Cor 15:42-54]
That sons of God are destined someday to be Gods is evident from the scriptures -
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as Elohiym (gods), knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
It was always God's plan to provide a "way of escape" for flesh, so his creation could be justified from a spiritual perspective rather than from a fleshly one, "For in thy sight shall no man living be justified." [Psa 143:2]
God expects us to crucify our flesh in living sacrifice with Christ [Gal 2:20][Rom 12:1-2] So that as Christ in the world we may present ourselves justified by the blood of the crucified Christ, by our faith therein, by the grace of the God who designed the plan, the logos.
God originally created two types of spiritual beings; one he called
"Elohiym," [Psa 8:5] who were clothed in something he named
"oikeeteerion" [Jude 6]; the other he called "Man," who, clothed in corruptible mortal flesh, waits to be clothed upon from heaven with that same "oikeeteerion." [II Cor 5:1-2]
For man to be clothed with oikeeteerion REQUIRES more than original creation by which he was "clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life [II Cor 5:1-2]; it requires in fact, first, a "putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ" [Col 2:11]; and we are counted as circumcised with Christ, who are baptized into Christ, wherein we also rise with him. [Col 2:12]
Jesus was the first man raised from the dead; the first to "Put on immortality;" The first to "Put on incorruption; the first fruit of them that slept [I Cor 15:20]; the first born from the dead [Col 1:18]; firstborn among many brethren [Rom 8:29]; and therefore was the first man to both die and not see corruption, and the first man to put on the oikeeteerion which is from heaven, and which is worn by the elohiym.
Paul tells us we who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ [Gal 3:27] and if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be alos in the likeness of his resurrection [Rom 6:5]; whcih we attain in baptism [Rom 6:3-4]; it remains for us to so live that it is no longer I that lives, but Christ living in me [Gal 2:20]. Any man in Christ is a "new creature." [II Cor 5:17]
With Christ as our high priest, and we being in Christ, a priesthood [I Pet 2:9], we are reasonably expected to offer daily sacrifices to God, the sacrifice of our bodies [Rom 12:1] and them living.
I Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
I Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
I Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
II Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
II Cor 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
II Cor 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
II Cor 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
I Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Angels not only failed to maintain or keep rule over themselves (did not maintain self-control), they actively abandoned their oikeeteerion.
Jude 5-6 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own oikeeteerion [habitation], he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
II Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to tartarwsa [hell], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
I Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Gen 1-2 God created Adam and Eve, male and female he created them and placed them in the garden of Eden, and instructed them that they could freely eat of every tree except one in the midst of the garden (2:9). But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they were forbidden access thereunto, being warned that "in the day that thou shalt eat thereof thou shalt surely die."
Gen 6 After developing the account of the fall of man and his consequent expulsion from Eden, God begins the story of man's ultimate failure to survive in a moral setting; having become involved with the abomination of mixing with angels in unholy marriages. [6:1-8]
Satan's attempt to counterfeit God's plan for salvation through an intermingling arrangement of marriage and begetting of a hybrid race, was defeated by God's action of flooding the Earth and destroying the demonic offspring by water.
Gen 6:1-2 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
II Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
II Pet 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Gen 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen 6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/8/2008 5:05:06 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I also understand that the concept "the flesh" seems connected to the universe. So where does one stop and the other begin? I'm asking because I don't know. God created the universe "good and very good". I see no connection of carnality with the universe by original intent of the Creator. Paul relates the frustration, bondage and groaning of creation in Romans 8:19-22 to Original Sin, not to some mystical aspect of naturalism.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/9/2008 7:52:06 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
(hellohellohi)I also understand that the concept "the flesh" seems connected to the universe. So where does one stop and the other begin? I'm asking because I don't know.
(drmark) I see no connection of carnality with the universe by original intent of the Creator.
I do not understand the implications of reference to "carnality." I understand "carnality" to reference any interaction between beings of flesh. When God told Adam and Eve to increase and mutliply, he certainly was referencing carnality.
Paul said he was going to minister "carnal things" to Jerusalem for the Gentile converts. Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in CARNAL things. 28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.
And I am persuaded that this is the will of God for us also.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 7/9/2008 9:47:42 AM >
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/9/2008 8:16:42 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I do not understand the implications of reference to "carnality." I understand "carnality" to reference any interaction between beings of flesh. When God told Adam and Eve to increase and mutliply, he certainly was referencing carnality. In essentially all Protestant traditions, carnality or "the flesh" represents the sinful nature or "old man" inherited from the Fall. I now realize that you put little stock in Protestant traditions which explains your lack of understanding of the concept.
quote:
When God told Adam and Eve to increase and mutliply, he certainly was referencing carnality. Actually, He was commanding the physical act of procreation which at that time in the innocence of Adam and Eve was NOT carnal in the sense of primary NT usage.
quote:
Paul said he was going to minister "carnal things" to Jerusalem for the Gentile converts. No, t_b, that's not what Romans 15 says. Paul is acknowledging the Gentile converts for sharing their material blessings (wealth) with the poor in Jerusalem who had previously sent the Jewish Christians to share their spiritual blessings (salvation). There is no reference to carnality or "the flesh" as correctly understood in NT context to be the sinful nature.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/9/2008 9:19:22 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
(theo) I do not understand the implications of reference to "carnality." I understand "carnality" to reference any interaction between beings of flesh. When God told Adam and Eve to increase and mutliply, he certainly was referencing carnality.
(drmark) In essentially all Protestant traditions, carnality or "the flesh" represents the sinful nature or "old man" inherited from the Fall. I now realize that you put little stock in Protestant traditions which explains your lack of understanding of the concept.
The use of "sarkeekos" throughout the New Testament remains consistantly clear as a reference contrasting the spiritual aspect of man with the fleshly. But the "CARNAL" more often than not, is a reference to exactly that, the fleshly needs in fulfilling spiritual duties.
You begin to see why I place no stock in "protestant traditions" which would have you thinking "CARNAL" is somehow a dirty word. Did you know God's commandments pertaining to the Levitical priesthood were CARNAL COMMANDMENTS? " "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, 16 Who is made, not after the law of a (sarkikos) CARNAL COMMANDMENT, but after the power of an endless life. 17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." [Heb 7:14-17]
Did you know that the temple ordinances imposed upon Israel by God himself were CARNAL ORDINANCES? "Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and (sarkikos) CARNAL ORDINANCES, IMPOSED ON THEM until the time of reformation." [Heb 9:6-10]
quote:
(theo) Paul said he was going to minister "carnal things" to Jerusalem for the Gentile converts.
(drmark) No, t_b, that's not what Romans 15 says. Paul is acknowledging the Gentile converts for sharing their material blessings (wealth) with the poor in Jerusalem who had previously sent the Jewish Christians to share their spiritual blessings (salvation). There is no reference to carnality or "the flesh" as correctly understood in NT context to be the sinful nature.
Sorry Doc, you missed it again. That is EXACTLY what Paul is saying.
"sarkikos" is a reference to "the flesh" as correctly understood in the New Testament, and INCORRECTLY understood by protestant traditions.
"But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. 26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem. 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in (sarkikos ) CARNAL things." [Rom 15:25-27]
Paul also applies (sarkikos) ["CARNAL"] to the divisions in the church that are similar to the protestant tradition of splitting into disparate groups based on traditions of men. Did you know that we should not be able to tell one group of Christians from another EXCEPT by either CARNAL means (outward appearances) or by the degree of holiness evident in one group above another? In other words, our deeds should speak for us instead of the name we place over the tops of our buildings. "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto (sarkikos) CARNAL, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet (sarkikos) CARNAL: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not (sarkikos) CARNAL, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of (Baptist, or Methodist, or Episcopalean) Paul; and another, I am of (Presbyterian, or adventist, or pre-millenialist) Apollos; are ye not (sarkikos) CARNAL?" [I Cor 3:1-4]
Paul even defended his right as a messenger of the gospel, to reap the (sarkikos) "CARNAL" things of the churches. Did you know that Paul said "living of the gospel" is a reference to "reaping your (sarkikos) CARNAL things?" - "For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your (sarkikos) CARNAL things? 12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? 14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." [I Cor 9:9-14]
Paul also uses (sarkikos) CARNAL to reference things we should NOT persue. "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not (sarkikos) CARNAL, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;" [II Cor 10:3-5]
Paul also makes a clear distinction between spirituality and CARNALITY - But he is NOT saying he is a dirty old man. "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin." [Rom 7:14]
And Paul points out that the mind of man is what makes the difference between the spiritual and the CARNAL man of God. "Because the (sarkikos) CARNAL mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." [Rom 8:7]
quote:
(theo) When God told Adam and Eve to increase and mutliply, he certainly was referencing carnality.
(drmark) Actually, He was commanding the physical act of procreation which at that time in the innocence of Adam and Eve was NOT carnal in the sense of primary NT usage.
So are you taking the position that the physical act of procreation is a SPIRITUAL application of reproduction? sarkikos IS a reference to the fleshly interaction between humans. The "innocence of Adam and EVE" has NO PART in defining the fact they were flesh. Innocent flesh is as much flesh as guilty flesh.
The PRIMARY NEW TESTAMENT USAGE of "sarkikos" is to define for spiritually minded men of religion, the difference between Christianity which is based on "the spirit of the law, and not the letter of the law" as opposed to Judaism which relied on CARNAL commandments and CARDINAL ordinances; and to warn and remind us of our natural impediment which is the flesh.
So the "proper New Testament understanding" of (sarkikos) "CARNAL" is five example plus three examples equals eight examples in favour of my understanding over the "Protestant traditions" understanding. I will stick with mine.
I was beginning to think we were getting off track of the theme "Was there a time in which light did not exist," but I see it still exists in the darkness of Protestant tradition. Read the bible instead of books about the bible. LET THE LIGHT BACK IN.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 7/9/2008 9:34:23 AM >
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/9/2008 11:17:26 AM
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drmark
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quote:
So the "proper New Testament understanding" of (sarkikos) "CARNAL" is five example plus three examples equals eight examples in favour of my understanding over the "Protestant traditions" understanding. I will stick with mine. Yes, I'm quite sure you will, t-b, which is why I have nothing further to discuss with you.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/9/2008 11:45:50 AM
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theo_book
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quote:
(theo) So the "proper New Testament understanding" of (sarkikos) "CARNAL" is five example plus three examples equals eight examples in favour of my understanding over the "Protestant traditions" understanding. I will stick with mine.
(drmark) Yes, I'm quite sure you will, t-b, which is why I have nothing further to discuss with you.
All you had to do was demonstrate with ONE example, where I misused the scripture, or where I was in error presenting what the authors of scripture said. Instead, you defend your position of Protestant traditions being more important than what the scriptures actually have to say.
You have made it abundantly evident you prefer the Protestant Traditions over the truth of the scriptures. "Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. 7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." [Mat 15:6-9]
"He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. 7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." [Mark 7:6-9]
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/9/2008 2:40:58 PM
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hellohellohi
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quote:
God created the universe "good and very good".
Good point.
Yes, I agree sin is man-created. The universe is God-created. However, we observe the universe and understand it through our own faculties, which we choose to use sinfully, such as, self-deceptively.
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/9/2008 3:11:02 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellohellohi
quote:
God created the universe "good and very good".
Good point.
Yes, I agree sin is man-created. The universe is God-created. However, we observe the universe and understand it through our own faculties, which we choose to use sinfully, such as, self-deceptively.
Have you considered.... How can man "create" sin. Was it not God who said "in the day you do this there will be a consequence?" Is that not the creation of sin by defining the terms thereof? It was not man who defined the terms.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
When God delineated the first parameters of disobedience he established the standard for sin.
It is one thing to create sin, and it is an entirely different thing to commit it.
What think ye?
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RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? - 7/9/2008 3:15:10 PM
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hellohellohi
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yes, I see your point. We did not create the concept of sin, but we enact it, of course.
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