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theo_book -> RE: Was there ever a time in which light did not exist? (6/27/2008 12:26:01 PM)
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ORIGINAL: gluadys
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ORIGINAL: theo_book
On the second day, God created "RAW-KEE-AH" and named it "SHAW-MAH-YIM." This shows that the "heaven" created on the second day is not the same heaven story retold. It is a different creation, "raw-kee-ah" that was GIVEN THE NAME of the created heaven of day one. It is not the same heaven.
You are forgetting that to give something a name is to declare what it essentially is. To call the 'raqia' 'shamayim' is to declare that the 'raqia' is 'shamayim'. There is no other 'shamayim'. The 'shamayim' of v. 6 is the same 'shamayim' of v. 2. 'shamayim' is not a courtesy title for the 'raqia'. It is what the 'raqia' is.
Not really. Many are the names "given" in scripture that serve as reminders of some message or other. It has nothing to do with "what something essentially is." "But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men." [Mat 16:23]
So is Mathew Satan? All God did by naming "'raqia' 'shamayim'" was to give us a point of reference. Paul the apostle said he was "caught up to the "third heaven" which is a simple oblique reference that there two others, which are identified for us in Genesis 1 as the heaven where the stars are located, and the heaven where the weather and atmosphere is located. Then there is the heaven where God abides. They are NOT one and the same.
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v. 1-2 together with v 2:4a frame the story. The first is an introductory announcement of the theme and the second is a summary statement. The action begins in v. 3
Not quite accurate. The action as accounted to us in Genesis begins with "created" while "in the beginning" tells us when. But that is limited to the beginning of creation, not the beginning of time.
The eighth proverb tells us of another set of actions that predated the Genesis account of the beginning of creation.
"The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: 30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." [Prov 8:22-31]
There are various samples of verbs expressed, referencing action accomplished, which requires time for expression. And please, do not tell me Proverbs eight is only an allegory or poetry. There is no scriptural reason for it not to be an accurate account of what took place.
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[theo] I have a problem with saying light is time.
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[gluadys] I didn't say that.
And I didn't say you did. I said "I" have a problem with saying it.
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[gluadys] I said time is measured from the point at which light is created, not that they are the same thing. Light is energy/matter. Time is the measure of the movement of energy/matter through space (which was also created simultaneously with light and time).
Measured how? God did not create the implements of time-measurement
until the fourth day, when he created the sun, and moon for the express purpose of allowing man to measure time. There is no reference to a "point" in TIME at which light is created. There is only a reference to the fact it was created on the first day. We have no knowledge as to the length of day as there were no provisions or measuring the day at that point in time. The most we can do is conjecture events.
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[theo] First; Did time begin (in this "time is light" philosophy) when light was created, or when it was separated from the dark? And second; did the separation change what the light was? And third; where is there any scriptural evidence for such conclusion?
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[gluadys] When light is created. No. I think the scriptural text is ambiguous if one does not take into account the physical nature of light. But since the text implies the creation of physical (as opposed to spiritual) light, it is allowable to take the physical nature of light into account.
Well I don't think there is any honest effort to claim it is spiritual light referenced in Genesis 1. In fact, I agree with your assessment that an understanding of physical light is essential for an understanding of Genesis 1.
Where I do not agree however, is when you say time began with the creation of light. God always existed. "Exist" carries the connotation "to be" (a verb of existence) to mean one "is." It requires time for one to
"be." "To be" MEANS to exist, have being. "Being" requires time, because being is itself a measure of change. To continue to be implies getting older. If God does not get older, then Daniel was wrong to reference God as "ancient of days." And Daniel was inspired to so designate Him.
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[theo] Activity requires time, but does not require light. It has been profferred on another thread, that "Time is a measure of change, a description of a sequence of events..." So if there are events sequencing, time must be in existence.
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[gluadys] I don't agree that there was any creative activity prior to the creation of light.
I did not say "creative activity." Creative" is the kind of activity referenced in Gen 1, but there is other activity referenced in Prov 8. ALL activity requires time.
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[gluadys] Time measures movement in space. In the material world all change involves movement in space. Even thinking involves the physical activity of neurons in the brain.
The only activity I can see happening 'before' creation is the thinking and planning of God which does not depend on the physical activity and connections of neurons and hence does not require time.
That assumes physical activity is necessary for time to function. But that is not the only kind of change we can catalogue. just "being" requires time, time in which to simply "be." Time is defined byWebster as, "The period necessary to be occupied by something or someone. Time is also defined by Webster as; the system of those sequential relations that any event has to any other; indefinite and continuous duration regarded as that in which events succeed one another."
There is no indication in any meaning of time, that anything can "exist" outside of its parameters of meaning. And I am not speaking of references like "In no time" as though it actually exists.
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