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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:24:03 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 9426
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
The existence of God cannot be proven either way.
Should we just take the Bible for a grain of salt merely because science refuses to take it seriously, then? I thought the account of Genesis made it clear that we would have proof of God's existence.
God isn't one to rely on science. He requires another element that is often unspoken among the scientific field. That being faith. If science had faith in its theories, they wouldn't be rewritten a thousand times over.
_____________________________
Cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:25:31 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gazingstock
Oh, I have two questions:
1) Do you believe it is possible that myself, or anyone else, does have sufficient evidence that God exists?
Sufficient for you? Yes. Sufficient for me? Probably not but it's possible.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gazingstock
2) What evidence would be sufficient for you personally to believe in God?
Most of the ways mentioned in this video would convert me..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rqUsC2KsiI
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:29:45 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
The existence of God cannot be proven either way.
If science had faith in its theories, they wouldn't be rewritten a thousand times over.
It's a good thing that it doesn't have faith in its theories. Because the beauty of science is that is strives on making errors. It makes errors and improves upon them to better understand the world. If science had faith in its theories, it wouldn't be where it is today and life would be much harder without the advances in technology and medicine we take for granted.
For science to have faith in its theories, it would have to take the position that it's all right.. and cannot be corrected or improved upon. That's not a good thing.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:31:07 PM
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StephK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
Over 4.6 billion years ago our solar system was born from the gases of a nebula.
Gravity caused the dust from the nebula to swirl together.. creating bigger pieces of debris.
At the center was a dense nucleus, or protosun.
The extreme heat that was generated in the center began to burn the abundant hydrogen atoms in its core, becoming a self-sustaining nuclear-fusion reaction that grew to be our sun.
The clumps of rock continued to form and grow thanks to gravity. These became planets..
This exact process has been observed in the extrasolar universe.
So where did the nebula originate?
Nebulae, and everything else, originally came from the Big Bang.. as I'm sure that's where you're getting at.
What generated the Big Bang? and so forth and so on. In other words, what started it all to begin with?
_____________________________
Stephanie
Religion has accepted the monstrous heresy that noise, size, activity and bluster make a man dear to God. To a people caught in the tempest God says, `Be still, and know that I am God.' ~AW Tozer
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:38:45 PM
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Gazingstock
Posts: 94
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quote:
Sufficient for you? Yes. Sufficient for me? Probably not but it's possible.
You actually side stepped both of my questions. Allow me to rephrase:
1) Do you believe it is possible for anyone to have sufficient evidence that God does exists? Yes or no?
2) I am asking you personally, what would be sufficient for you personally to believe that God is real?
YouTube promotions aside. I am looking for an answer in your own words.
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:43:45 PM
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Gazingstock
Posts: 94
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While we are sharing links, here is one for you too:
10 Common Delusions of Atheists/Agnostics
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:44:15 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
Over 4.6 billion years ago our solar system was born from the gases of a nebula.
Gravity caused the dust from the nebula to swirl together.. creating bigger pieces of debris.
At the center was a dense nucleus, or protosun.
The extreme heat that was generated in the center began to burn the abundant hydrogen atoms in its core, becoming a self-sustaining nuclear-fusion reaction that grew to be our sun.
The clumps of rock continued to form and grow thanks to gravity. These became planets..
This exact process has been observed in the extrasolar universe.
So where did the nebula originate?
Nebulae, and everything else, originally came from the Big Bang.. as I'm sure that's where you're getting at.
What generated the Big Bang? and so forth and so on. In other words, what started it all to begin with?
Well, then we're brought into some weird physics. New research is working on what happened before the Big Bang, if that's even a coherent question, why it exists, etc. There are physicists that research how things may not need a cause, at least on a quantum level (at a quantum level, particles pop in and out of existence) and the most popular theory being worked on right now is String Theory which hopes to explain everything from the laws of nature to the Big Bang. It's a very complicated subject but it has to do with multi dimensions, which seem to be supported by math.
Until shortly, we've had no way to test String Theory, and people argued that it was too theoretical. But now, with the construction of the 'largest particle accelerator in the world' in Switzerland, we should be unlocking some pretty freaky stuff on the topic.
You can read the details here
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9473392
All in all, God is not a suitable answer.
You can ask, "Where did the universe come from?"
I can say, "Where did God come from?"
You can ask, "God always existed"
I can say, "The universe always existed"
and so forth.
< Message edited by PrexicKehdaki -- 6/26/2008 5:55:20 PM >
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:47:43 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gazingstock
quote:
Sufficient for you? Yes. Sufficient for me? Probably not but it's possible.
You actually side stepped both of my questions. Allow me to rephrase:
1) Do you believe it is possible for anyone to have sufficient evidence that God does exists? Yes or no?
I actually didn't sidestep. That question doesn't require only a 'yes' or a 'no' because 'sufficient' is HIGHLY subjective. Perhaps you need a word other than sufficient if you're talking about objectivity.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Gazingstock
2) I am asking you personally, what would be sufficient for you personally to believe that God is real?
YouTube promotions aside. I am looking for an answer in your own words.
I already gave them to you. The video says it better than me, and I'm not going to transcribe the transcript of the entire video to this thread for you. Just watch it.
< Message edited by PrexicKehdaki -- 6/26/2008 5:54:35 PM >
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:49:38 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
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From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
No one knows for sure, but one theory goes like this.
quote:
A theory is nothing more than a presumption, which, at best, is a guess.
I've heard one too many "theories" on the origin of existence. All of them fail to present itself as cold, hard fact without any second guessing or newer additions that modify old theories and basically rewrite the hypothesis altogether. I can't put my faith in something that constantly changes.
I agree. It simply amazes me that a scientists best guess is passed off as absolute fact at any moment in time. Tests and experiments were done to prove it, yet they could never know the actual state of a primordial earth now could they.
quote:
I did read this one book though. It made a lot of sense. Pretty good author, too. He knows how to tell the origins of life pretty well.
Let me guess, it wasn't Darwins The Origin of Species
Does it start with "In The Beginning"
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:51:59 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
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Ok guys, I have some errands to run.
I'm not neglecting the questions.. I'll be back as soon as I can!
Keep them coming!
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:52:22 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
the first primitive cell.... Have you ever considered irreduceable complexity? This "primitive" cell, how did it live while the very components it needs to live are evolving (by blind, unintelligent chance by the way). For example, every human needs a functioning brain, heart, and lungs (plus a whole bunch more) to live. How does the body function while these parts are "evolving"? One other question, how do scientists know the conditions of this earth billions of years ago to conduct these so-called experiments, when they won't even accept a lot of eye-witness accounts of history because it makes somewhat of a joke out of you theory? Plus, producing some useless amino acids in a dish is nothing compared to creating the universe out of nothing with a spoken word. And they're not even using their own material, but material created by God. They're using HIS material to disprove Him with. By the way, UNI = single, VERSE = spoken sentence; UNIVERSE = single spoken sentence. Well, isn't that amazing? You were created as a result of God's spoken voice, and the amazing part of it is, God loves you so much, even though he knew you would reject Him, He still created you, and before He put you together in your mother's womb, He became a man so that HIS blood could pay for YOUR sin and MY sin. THAT is LOVE. THAT is amazing grace.
Wow, very well put tsnody2001. This was very well written, you argued the point and yet still showed the love of Christ through it. May God bless you and take care.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:54:38 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
You're an atheist? Wow, I've never met a person who had infinate knowledge before... 
You see, because that's what you'd need in order to say that there is no God.
You would have to know the intimate details of exactly everything there is to know in the universe to be able to say that there is no evidence to prove the existence of God. I'm sure that you don't have infinate knowledge of everything, so the best you can do is to say that you are an agnostic. Atheists by definition do not exist.
Now, to your "beginning" explaination: go back in your mind to the very first thing... An atom of anything, or whatever the very first "thing" was that existed to which just a nanosecond before there was nothing... How did that come into being? Since time exists, and all things wind down, or die, or burn up, or expire, ect... then it's safe to assume that on a much larger scale there MUST have been a beginning to everything. So what caused it? (Remember, start with absolutely nothing - that's a "zero" with the edges rubbed out)
Have you been to wayofthemaster.com? I saw they had this same argument, and was waiting to use it.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:58:28 PM
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Gazingstock
Posts: 94
Joined: 5/30/2007
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quote:
I actually didn't sidestep. That question doesn't require only a 'yes' or a 'no' because 'sufficient' is HIGHLY subjective. Perhaps you need a word other than sufficient if you're talking about objectivity.
You most certainly did, but that's okay. Try it this way:
1) Do you believe it is possible to know for a fact that God is real?
2) Name one thing that would prove to you God is real.
< Message edited by Gazingstock -- 6/26/2008 6:04:42 PM >
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 5:59:29 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: atheistinpeace
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
You're an atheist? Wow, I've never met a person who had infinate knowledge before...
You see, because that's what you'd need in order to say that there is no God.
You would have to know the intimate details of exactly everything there is to know in the universe to be able to say that there is no evidence to prove the existence of God. I'm sure that you don't have infinate knowledge of everything, so the best you can do is to say that you are an agnostic. Atheists by definition do not exist.
At the risk of taking over Prexic's thread, which I don't really want to do:
PromiseLander, we've gone over this before! Atheism does not claim infinite knowledge. I've put something on the definition of the terms 'atheism' and 'agnosticism' a few posts above this one. An atheist - in short - is someone who doesn't think there's a god. They suspect there isn't one. Now two really important points:
1. No atheist should ever, ever claim to know that god doesn't exist. (The same can be applied to theism, but that's not important right now.) This is intellectual dishonesty, and is a travesty regardless of the position of the person who commits that particular crime.
2. The existence of God cannot be proven either way. Period. See above re. intellectual dishonesty.
Best,
AiP
AiP, remember me, we have tussled before. But this point is where you are wrong. The existence of God has been proven, and is proven with every breath you take. The proof lies in the creation.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 6:02:21 PM
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tapestry
Posts: 178
Joined: 8/19/2005
From: Ontario, Canada
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quote:
It can be an argument against atheism, a question about atheism, or even a question about my personal life as an atheist. All is welcome!
The dictionary says that an atheist is a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Please show me proof that God does not exsist.
Thank you.
_____________________________
Joshua 24:15 B
..."As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 6:02:37 PM
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ladyingrace1979
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Why? You have chosen not to believe in The Truth. I pray that will change for you someday, but I know the truth of God's word and that is all I need.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 6:04:16 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
You're an atheist? Wow, I've never met a person who had infinate knowledge before...
You see, because that's what you'd need in order to say that there is no God.
You would have to know the intimate details of exactly everything there is to know in the universe to be able to say that there is no evidence to prove the existence of God. I'm sure that you don't have infinate knowledge of everything, so the best you can do is to say that you are an agnostic. Atheists by definition do not exist.
Now, to your "beginning" explaination: go back in your mind to the very first thing... An atom of anything, or whatever the very first "thing" was that existed to which just a nanosecond before there was nothing... How did that come into being? Since time exists, and all things wind down, or die, or burn up, or expire, ect... then it's safe to assume that on a much larger scale there MUST have been a beginning to everything. So what caused it? (Remember, start with absolutely nothing - that's a "zero" with the edges rubbed out)
I don't say there is no God. I simply lack a belief in one due to insufficient evidence.
You don't have to know everything in the universe to lack a belief in something.
From what I do know, however, I believe the Christian god is highly unlikely. But it's specifically because I don't know everything that I'm not willing to say he for sure doesn't exist.
What more evidence do you need. Do you understand the awesome perfect complexity of the planet you live on, the total harmony of the eco system, and the unimaginable complexities of a human being. How can you really right off all of this as not being evidence of a creator. There is just simply no way all that we see could have happened by chance.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 6:12:45 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: StephK
quote:
primordial earth had hydrogen, hydrogen-cyanide, methane, ammonia
Where did primordial earth come from?
Over 4.6 billion years ago our solar system was born from the gases of a nebula.
Gravity caused the dust from the nebula to swirl together.. creating bigger pieces of debris.
At the center was a dense nucleus, or protosun.
The extreme heat that was generated in the center began to burn the abundant hydrogen atoms in its core, becoming a self-sustaining nuclear-fusion reaction that grew to be our sun.
The clumps of rock continued to form and grow thanks to gravity. These became planets..
This exact process has been observed in the extrasolar universe.
what is an extrasolar universe, and if it takes billions of years to happen, how exactly has it been observed?
Do the clumps of rock really continue to grow to then wind up in perfect orbits around the sun? That is very interesting. And was it 8 rocks or 9 rocks, cause you know that little planet pluto might not really be one.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 6:17:21 PM
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designed
Posts: 228
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I have a question.
Where does "love" come from?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:35
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 6:19:16 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
The truth is unknowable? How do we know that 6 + 4 = 10? Is that not truth? By the way, I'm not saying Jesus is a math problem. FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. FAITH and ALL the created universe are very "true" evidences for the existence of God.
There are numerous questions that we don't know the answer to. Even theists.
Faith is not evidence for the existence of God.. care to explain?
And simply evidence does not make a truth known for certain. We have evidence of how life started but we don't know for sure yet.
you don't have evidence but guesses and ideas, supported by experiments based on those guesses and ideas.
i once heard someone say that physics can prove it is possible to hang an elephant with its tail tied to a flower over a cliff, so obviously the tests and experiments would be biased, but is it really possible.
You know it is kind of like the artist rendered drawing of Lucy the 3 foot tall orangutan with a cigarette in her mouth and a bud in her hand. Biased.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 6:26:08 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 666
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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Prex,
You said
quote:
Well, then we're brought into some weird physics. New research is working on what happened before the Big Bang, if that's even a coherent question, why it exists, etc. There are physicists that research how things may not need a cause, at least on a quantum level (at a quantum level, particles pop in and out of existence) and the most popular theory being worked on right now is String Theory which hopes to explain everything from the laws of nature to the Big Bang. It's a very complicated subject but it has to do with multi dimensions, which seem to be supported by math.
So if they can come with something that works and may have happened, and the tests and experiments they run actually work, does that then mean that it is true? Or does it mean that in their limited knowledge, they came up with a possibility that they deem sufficient, their biased tests prove it, and now it must be taken as fact, even though they could never have any idea what it was like b4 the Big Lie theory, I mean big bang.
_____________________________
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 7:32:39 PM
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mikejonesoftn
Posts: 57
Joined: 6/7/2008
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PrexicKehdaki, you remind me of my brother through your post, lol. He wants a scientific explanation for everything. I am just assuming that most atheist are the same pretty much not believing unless there is physical proof? If not, you I'm pretty sure you would be a believer if there was physical proof, and if there was physical proof I think that will make the bible and verses about faith void. Well hopefully, later in your life you will notice that you will not get physical proof for everything that you wish to seek.
Now if we believers in God keep throwing the first cause question at any "Big Bang Theory or other theory believers, later a nonbeliever would soon ask who created God if everything has to have a first cause, well that answer will be very simple to me because it's in the bible. God has always been, but it would be very hard to explain that to a non believer because, obviously they will not believe anything in the bible. So with that being said, there's little to no work being done in this thread if we do not try to make you a believer. I think to make this thread worth replying to would be if you asked us questions.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 7:36:34 PM
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mikejonesoftn
Posts: 57
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
All in all, God is not a suitable answer.
Only to those who do not know him.
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RE: Ask an atheist! - 6/26/2008 7:44:22 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
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isaacsmom, that is the most crucial evidence our faith stands on. THAT evidence is why I can believe the rest of my Bible. There is an article by Tim Kurkjian on espn.com, "Oldest living major leaguer, 100, still going strong". In this article Bill Werber, the 100-year old man, confirms numerous stories about players like Babe Ruth, and even gives intimate (non-sexual) details of his time. He is the last man on earth who can tell these stories from personal experience! This article brought tears to my eyes, because in a way the Apostle John was this man. I can just imagine the early believers flocking to hear the one whom Jesus loved tell of the precious three years he spent with the LORD. Thank you for bringing up the historical part of this debate. The part that CAN be affirmed.
Travis
_____________________________
"Saving faith shuts my mouth and excludes boasting, but it leads me to boast in Christ.... Saving faith is not dependant upon my obedience, but obedience is the hallmark of the man or woman filled with the Spirit." -- Sinclair Ferguson --
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