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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/22/2008 2:32:00 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4038
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What about the wise men who came offering gifts at Jesus birth, they were there by faith in seeing a new star in the sky and they followed it to Jerusalem. Were these wise men saved or no, if they were saved they were not of Israel but of other nations and they were saved by their faith the same as all men are saved from the beginning of time till now by faith alone. I like to assume that these wise men were elderly and that some of them died before Christ's death on the cross (but I do not know for sure) so if they were saved it was by their faith and they did not join to Israel.
To say that during the time of the law someone would have to join themselves to Israel to be saved is ridiculous that would of made the whole earth almost unsaveable and I believe there were many people of faith all over the earth as we see there were at least some that brought gifts to Jesus birth. If faith alone was not enough that would mean the whole earth practically was destined to hell at the time before Jesus birth and our God is more marvolus then that I'm sure he had revealed to others his deity. So you are saying that American Indians, Australian Aboriginies and Polynesians who died prior to 33 AD could have been saved but those who died 34 AD and later could not?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/22/2008 6:21:08 PM
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drfuss
Posts: 191
Joined: 3/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What about the wise men who came offering gifts at Jesus birth, they were there by faith in seeing a new star in the sky and they followed it to Jerusalem. Were these wise men saved or no, if they were saved they were not of Israel but of other nations and they were saved by their faith the same as all men are saved from the beginning of time till now by faith alone. I like to assume that these wise men were elderly and that some of them died before Christ's death on the cross (but I do not know for sure) so if they were saved it was by their faith and they did not join to Israel.
To say that during the time of the law someone would have to join themselves to Israel to be saved is ridiculous that would of made the whole earth almost unsaveable and I believe there were many people of faith all over the earth as we see there were at least some that brought gifts to Jesus birth. If faith alone was not enough that would mean the whole earth practically was destined to hell at the time before Jesus birth and our God is more marvolus then that I'm sure he had revealed to others his deity.
Dave writes: So you are saying that American Indians, Australian Aboriginies and Polynesians who died prior to 33 AD could have been saved but those who died 34 AD and later could not?
drfuss: An interesting point, Dave. I had not thought of it that way.
I thought as Whisperingwaters does until I made a study on God's Chosen People and came across the scriptures listed in my posts #51 & #52. Note that some of those scriptures are New Testament scriptures, so they are not just for Jewish consumption.
Hopefully, someone can convince me by scripture, not just rationale, that Gentiles not connected with Isreal could be saved during the time the law was in effect. I would be more comfortable with that position than the one I have posted here.
BTW, the wise men became connected with Isreal by coming to the birth of Christ. Maybe that was God's way of bringing those Gentiles in.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/23/2008 10:24:49 PM
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whisperingwaters
Posts: 153
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What about the wise men who came offering gifts at Jesus birth, they were there by faith in seeing a new star in the sky and they followed it to Jerusalem. Were these wise men saved or no, if they were saved they were not of Israel but of other nations and they were saved by their faith the same as all men are saved from the beginning of time till now by faith alone. I like to assume that these wise men were elderly and that some of them died before Christ's death on the cross (but I do not know for sure) so if they were saved it was by their faith and they did not join to Israel.
To say that during the time of the law someone would have to join themselves to Israel to be saved is ridiculous that would of made the whole earth almost unsaveable and I believe there were many people of faith all over the earth as we see there were at least some that brought gifts to Jesus birth. If faith alone was not enough that would mean the whole earth practically was destined to hell at the time before Jesus birth and our God is more marvolus then that I'm sure he had revealed to others his deity.
So you are saying that American Indians, Australian Aboriginies and Polynesians who died prior to 33 AD could have been saved but those who died 34 AD and later could not?
I am not saying anything like that those who died 34AD and later could still be saved. What happened at Jesus death on the cross it says that the temple curtain was split down the middle and that people rose from the dead I believe this happened all over the earth and they were witnesses of Christ. God has ways to reveal the truth of Himself that we know not of and men are saved by faith in Christ from the beguining of time till now.
_____________________________
The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/23/2008 10:26:34 PM
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whisperingwaters
Posts: 153
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What about the wise men who came offering gifts at Jesus birth, they were there by faith in seeing a new star in the sky and they followed it to Jerusalem. Were these wise men saved or no, if they were saved they were not of Israel but of other nations and they were saved by their faith the same as all men are saved from the beginning of time till now by faith alone. I like to assume that these wise men were elderly and that some of them died before Christ's death on the cross (but I do not know for sure) so if they were saved it was by their faith and they did not join to Israel.
To say that during the time of the law someone would have to join themselves to Israel to be saved is ridiculous that would of made the whole earth almost unsaveable and I believe there were many people of faith all over the earth as we see there were at least some that brought gifts to Jesus birth. If faith alone was not enough that would mean the whole earth practically was destined to hell at the time before Jesus birth and our God is more marvolus then that I'm sure he had revealed to others his deity.
Dave writes: So you are saying that American Indians, Australian Aboriginies and Polynesians who died prior to 33 AD could have been saved but those who died 34 AD and later could not?
drfuss: An interesting point, Dave. I had not thought of it that way.
I thought as Whisperingwaters does until I made a study on God's Chosen People and came across the scriptures listed in my posts #51 & #52. Note that some of those scriptures are New Testament scriptures, so they are not just for Jewish consumption.
Hopefully, someone can convince me by scripture, not just rationale, that Gentiles not connected with Isreal could be saved during the time the law was in effect. I would be more comfortable with that position than the one I have posted here.
BTW, the wise men became connected with Isreal by coming to the birth of Christ. Maybe that was God's way of bringing those Gentiles in.
Just because the wise men came to Christ's birth does not make them connected to Israel remember they went home they just passed through that country.
_____________________________
The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/25/2008 7:02:54 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4038
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What happened at Jesus death on the cross it says that the temple curtain was split down the middle and that people rose from the dead I believe this happened all over the earth and they were witnesses of Christ. References please???
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/25/2008 8:56:43 AM
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drfuss
Posts: 191
Joined: 3/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
quote:
ORIGINAL: drfuss
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What about the wise men who came offering gifts at Jesus birth, they were there by faith in seeing a new star in the sky and they followed it to Jerusalem. Were these wise men saved or no, if they were saved they were not of Israel but of other nations and they were saved by their faith the same as all men are saved from the beginning of time till now by faith alone. I like to assume that these wise men were elderly and that some of them died before Christ's death on the cross (but I do not know for sure) so if they were saved it was by their faith and they did not join to Israel.
To say that during the time of the law someone would have to join themselves to Israel to be saved is ridiculous that would of made the whole earth almost unsaveable and I believe there were many people of faith all over the earth as we see there were at least some that brought gifts to Jesus birth. If faith alone was not enough that would mean the whole earth practically was destined to hell at the time before Jesus birth and our God is more marvolus then that I'm sure he had revealed to others his deity.
Dave writes: So you are saying that American Indians, Australian Aboriginies and Polynesians who died prior to 33 AD could have been saved but those who died 34 AD and later could not?
drfuss: An interesting point, Dave. I had not thought of it that way.
I thought as Whisperingwaters does until I made a study on God's Chosen People and came across the scriptures listed in my posts #51 & #52. Note that some of those scriptures are New Testament scriptures, so they are not just for Jewish consumption.
Hopefully, someone can convince me by scripture, not just rationale, that Gentiles not connected with Isreal could be saved during the time the law was in effect. I would be more comfortable with that position than the one I have posted here.
BTW, the wise men became connected with Isreal by coming to the birth of Christ. Maybe that was God's way of bringing those Gentiles in.
Just because the wise men came to Christ's birth does not make them connected to Israel remember they went home they just passed through that country.
drfuss: THe wise men example is not a problem for the being connected to Isreal criteria for three reasons:
1. The wise men came to worship the King of the Jews (sounds connected to me).
2. The wise men came to worship God's ultimate sacrifice for sins.
3. Christ's time here on earth can be considered a transition period. For instance, practically all of His teaching were before the cross, but they apply to after the cross as well. This would include the wise men visit.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/25/2008 8:57:08 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4038
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
Just because the wise men came to Christ's birth does not make them connected to Israel remember they went home they just passed through that country. It also does not say that they were saved.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/27/2008 1:28:17 AM
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whisperingwaters
Posts: 153
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: Michigan
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What happened at Jesus death on the cross it says that the temple curtain was split down the middle and that people rose from the dead I believe this happened all over the earth and they were witnesses of Christ. References please???
Matt 27:45-56
Now this verse doesn't say there were people all over the earth that rose but saints that went into Jeruselem it is just my personal belief. That doesn't change any thing though our God is powerful enough to be a witness over the whole earth when there is no witness.
_____________________________
The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 8/28/2008 3:09:27 PM
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drfuss
Posts: 191
Joined: 3/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
What happened at Jesus death on the cross it says that the temple curtain was split down the middle and that people rose from the dead I believe this happened all over the earth and they were witnesses of Christ. References please???
Matt 27:45-56
Now this verse doesn't say there were people all over the earth that rose but saints that went into Jeruselem it is just my personal belief. That doesn't change any thing though our God is powerful enough to be a witness over the whole earth when there is no witness.
drfuss: Of course God is powerful enough to do anything He wants to do anywhere and when He wants to do it. But the question is what did God choose to do? God has revealed to us what He chose to reveal about Himself and His dealing with man, through the scriptures.
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RE: Gentiles Salvation During the Law? - 9/4/2008 11:12:00 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4038
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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If you look thru the whole of scripture you will find that God NEVER related to mankind except thru a covenant.
Where is the covenant with other people groups prior to the New Covnenant?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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