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sunofone -> RE: openended? (7/1/2008 9:34:42 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: sunofone
The bible is it's own witness to itself and no one scripture is capable of interpreting itself,that is I have found that if something revealed is true,it can easily be confirmed with the balance of scripture.
You will find it consistently weaved throughout the balance of scripture.There are literal keys to scripture,and we are gate keepers to the kingdom.
so if i understand you correctly, our individual understanding of a passage is limited by what the rest of scripture says. if that is true, and i think it is, then scripture itself would limit how open ended any passage can be? i hope i am making sense here [:)]. but that brings us back to the original problem, can two people read a passage and come to different understandings of that passage and both be right? do we end up with two different groups each throwing out the passages that support thier viewpoint and ignoring the passages that dont. boy i have been guilty of that one[&o]
Consider this in answer to your question.Jesus said to the Disciples,this is borrowed from a brother in Christ that I had the opportunity to discuss the passage earlier I brought on a post on Jesus feeding the five thousand:
There are so many examples I'm thinking of that I'm finding it difficult to list just one that would highlight what I'm seeing.
When Jesus fed the five thousand afterward he had them gather up the scraps that nothing be lost.This can mean any number of things.Jesus even reminded his disciples of this in Mark chp 8 vs 17-21 and he ended this by saying do you still not understand?
Even that question is open ended.In other words it does not necessarily ask what is implied.It is not an absolute.
would share something with you that I discovered and found pretty interesting, it had to do with looking deeper into John 6:9 "There is a lad here, which hath five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many?"
At first I was intrigued by what the possible significance of what the "lad" might be when it struck me that I never really paid any real attention to the "barley" and what it could mean as well.
(Of course I went to esword and checked for the other verses with barley in it and found, to me at least Wink some mind blowing stuff.)
Keep in mind that chonologically the feeding of the 5000 came before the feeding of the 4000. When Christ performed the multitude feeding the first time it is recorded that this was close to the Passover Festival which uses unleavened bread (barley flour), the next feeding (of the 4000) was close to Pentecost which does use leavened bread (wheat flour).
Two things that jumped out at me here was the difference between Passover and Pentecost, remember Passover was celebrated in remembrence of the angels painting the posts with blood to signify those who were not to die, and the mercy shown to His people? (a type/shadow of those will not taste of the second death) Pentecost was originally a celebration of the Law being given to Moses at Mount Sinai, then we have the church age also beginning at Pentecost. A coincidence? The degeneration of man made doctrines (leaven of the Pharisees) started in the churches almost immediately.
Did you know that barley cannot be influenced by yeast? It has no gluten so it does not interact with yeast, IT CANNOT BE LEAVENED! Kind of reminded me of Matthew 24:24 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."
It is not possible to leaven barley as it is not possible to deceive (with man made doctrines) the elect! Which brought me to the realization that perhaps it has been overlooked that barley actually is representative of the elect rather than the wheat and the tares version. Also did you know that barley is actually harvested first? Barley in April and wheat in May! Both are planted in fall but barley matures quicker.
2Ki 4:42 And there came a man from Baal-shalisha, and brought the man of God bread of the firstfruits, twenty loaves of barley, and full ears of corn in the husk thereof. And he said, Give unto the people, that they may eat.
Interesting? Now look at this;
Mar 8:8 So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets. (leavened wheat bread)
Mar 8:9 And they that had eaten were about four thousand: and he sent them away.
Rev 1:20 The mystery (sacred secret) of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
Mat 14:20 And they did all eat and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. (unleavened barley bread)
Mat 14:21 And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children.
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (virgin church) clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
See it? The seven representing the "leavened" churches and the twelve representing the elect, the undefiled true church/kingdom?
Mark 8
14Now the disciples had forgotten to take bread, neither had they in the ship with them more than one loaf.
15And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
16And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
17And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?
18Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
19When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve.
20And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven.
21And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?
I don't believe Jesus intended for them to understand at that time, maybe not at all as this really seems to speak of a time that was yet future, when the church would be leavened by the doctrines of devils. You will see these feedings also written in Matthew, Luke and John with some variations.
I believe two people can see the same elephant and yet not see the whole elephant.I think we get into trouble when we act out in pride or fear like the Pharisees declaring that we hold the truth while every one else is in error.
We see what we can we see,when we see it.We have to remain humble and seek the bread of God daily,never assuming that the truth we hold in our hand today is something to be held onto.
Manna is fresh every morning.God can give us a new word,a new understanding of his word,if we don't assume we already know everything there is to know about whatever it is we think we know.
I know I don't know anything,save what he teaches me,and even that is subject to change as he shows me more.It's called growing.
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