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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/29/2008 4:54:22 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7729
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
"-They're too stupid."
Should atheists go to Hell because they are stupid?
It's quite the opposite, in fact. Those that choose to not acknowledge the existence of a supreme being are also those that feel that humanity is grown vastly in intelligence and thus the concept of God seems illogical, or "stupid". In other words, we're too smart for an intelligent designer to make sense.
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Should atheists go to Hell because they are too weak to keep faith through hard times?
Christians could be included. But since an atheist doesn't believe in God, they wouldn't have faith in the first place.
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-They're a fan of science and have interpreted the evidence to be a world with no need for God.
This is a part of humanity thinking we're overly intelligent and that we no longer have the need for a concept that would involve a supreme being.
Science isn't the end all, be all, fyi. It constantly changes. God doesn't.
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-They don't want to be a part of the religious conflict that has plagued our world forever.
Because they've interpreted Christianity incorrectly. As much as science promotes the need for no God, Christianity promotes the need for only one truth.
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-They can't conjure up any love for a god that allows so much non-human-evil suffering.
All suffering is God's fault. 
Psalm 91 is clear of God's capabilities. Yet, He requires faith. Something a lot of people could use.
Anyways, I don't have time to comment further, but to answer your repeated question:
Q:) Should atheists go to hell because of *so-and-so*?
A:) No. Everyone should go to hell for rejecting and hating the being that loves them the most, yet because of human ignorance, is separated from fully understanding that love.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/29/2008 5:06:31 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrapeApe
Anyways, I don't have time to comment further, but to answer your repeated question:
Q:) Should atheists go to hell because of *so-and-so*?
A:) No. Everyone should go to hell for rejecting and hating the being that loves them the most, yet because of human ignorance, is separated from fully understanding that love.
Does that change who does and doesn't go to Hell? Does that change actual criteria that is used?
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/29/2008 8:56:04 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1325
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
I really don't care what degrees
but you stated:
quote:
All I can say is that you have some very erroneous numbers and don't seem to understand the abiogenesis theories, early cell functions, RNA, etc.. etc..
a degree in molecular biology is one that specializes in DNA and RNA ... I was trying to let you know that I do have a thorough knowledge of the subject and am qualified to share the knowledge with some authority. It was in no way an attempt to belittle you in anyway ... I am only attempting to share some knowledge on the subject ... and encourage you to look back on your own understanding of the subject. And again, the numbers are correct ... I checked three references before posting.
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Is it possible to have an open heart (not stubborn) but due to stupidity, be unconvinced by the Bible?
Again ... the answer has nothing to do with stupidity or intelligence ... though it is possible for someone to attempt to understand a concept they do not have the ability to understand and be lured into thinking creation did not require a creator.
An example ...
A child at the age of 4 is typically in the preoperative stage of cognitive development ... they do not have the ability of logical reasoning at this stage. So if you present to them a mathematical equation and tell them the results of that equation has a certain meaning, they can repeat it back to you with enough practice (their language development at this stage makes it possible for them to learn the language of math before understanding the concepts behind the language), but have no idea why it is true. You can easily present an incorrect answer and they will whole heartily believe you.
The same is true when trying to use your mind to grasp the meaning of life ... if you do not have the ability to readily absorb and process logical thought and to critically think through a concept, you can end up believing something you have memorized to be true without really understanding the concept behind what you memorized. So if you stubbornly hold onto a belief knowing that you do not have the ability to fully grasp what it is you believe, then yes, you will go to hell for not believing.
The beautiful thing about the gospel is that you do not need to understand, but can choose to. On the other hand, for those who have the ability to critically think through the details of science, history and the bible, they too can come to the same conclusion that there is a Creator and Jesus was who He claimed to be ...
I am not sure you are thoroughly reading the responses to your questions ... I clearly stated several times I do not expect you to answer the questions now ... if you did it would be a clear indication that you have not examined the evidence, but are only answering to answer ...
As to your statement " Please, you know very very well I can't address these things. You're being unfair. Please, just answer questions." If you had thoroughly read what I wrote you would see I wasn't looking for you to answer the questions ... I was looking for you to think critically, which I have yet to see evidence of in your posts .... critical thinking involves researching both sides of the argument from both perspectives.
There have been a number of offers for you to pm people with your arguments to get around the TOS ... but you have declined the offer ... so to cry no fair is silly ... you can always pm me or any of the others here who have offered to present your side ...
If you do chose to pm me ... be sure to do your homework first ... which means looking at both sides critically.  And think it through ... don't just spit back something you have read that sounds good ... make sure you can break it down in simple terms and be able to discuss both sides. That's the real test on how well you know a topic.
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If God knows what WILL happen to me, does that mean it MUST happen? Why must it happen? What's dictating that it must happen? The laws of nature? Does this interfere with free will?
I know this was addressed to another ... but ... God is eternal ... no beginning, no ending ... He made time for us and is not limited by time. If He knows something will happen in our future, from His perspective it has already happened ... yesterday and today are the same.
His sovereignty and the free will He gives us is something that cannot be understood with our finite minds ... His wisdom is infinite ... ours is not. There is not a human on this earth that will have the kind of knowledge and wisdom He processes, and there are somethings we can never know because of our own limitations.
Some will allow these types of questions get in the way of knowing the things He has revealed to us in His Word and in His Creation (which includes science) ... others will wisely understand that a God that I can understand is not God at all. If I could understand all there was to know of Him, He would not be worthy of my worship ... and I would stop trying to know Him better and would in all probability use my knowledge as a means to manipulate His Hand in my favor.
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/29/2008 9:19:36 PM
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neetchym
Posts: 18
Joined: 6/14/2008
From: Raleigh Area, NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: neetchym
Only God has all the answers to your "Questions, questions, questions." The only thing you can do is either have faith or don't. God knew from the moment you were conceived that you would or would not accept Christ, but he still gave you the choice.(Roman 8:29) He knows if you will or won't accept Christ before you die. So, I'm praying that you do. God bless you. 
*A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his own opinions. (Prov 18:2)
If God knows what WILL happen to me, does that mean it MUST happen? Why must it happen? What's dictating that it must happen? The laws of nature? Does this interfere with free will?
He knows what will happens because he can see our lives in the past the present and the future...concurrently. So you make your choices because you want (freewill), not because you must. YOU dictate your choices. What I'm saying is that God can see what you will do.
_____________________________
When you stop, God starts!
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/29/2008 11:44:51 PM
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Gazingstock
Posts: 65
Joined: 5/30/2007
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quote:
Is it possible that pursuing your advice would still yield a failure in trying to believe?
This is possibly the best and most spiritual point you have made PrexicKehdaki. This is a real situation I personally know of at least one other person found themselves in. Wanting to believe, but finding themselves unable to. Eventually desperately wanting to, and still finding faith would not come. You may have formerly believed, but it does not seem you received the Holy Spirit yet. Did you ask?
Also, one of the biggest glosses atheists make is concerning the Devil. Which follows, because he is the one who blinds humanity from receiving of the truth:
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. -2Cr 4:4
Earth is a cosmic hostage situation. Everyone is a captive and doomed, until set free by God through repentance, acknowledgment of the truth, and faith in Jesus Christ and the resurrection:
And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. -2Ti 2:26
You have heard misery loves company, and no one knows this better than Satan does. He is taking as many beings that God loves with him into the Lake of Fire as he possibly can, with all his might. Which is the 2nd Death:
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. -Mat 7:13
Earth is much more an object lesson for the angels, than humanity, although certainly this changed with the manifestation of Jesus Christ. Who was an object lesson for both the inhabitants of Heaven and Earth. Faked very often B.C. and A.D., but never to be overcome by any other belief or non-belief.
_____________________________
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual [ones]. -1Cr 2:13
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 1:28:21 AM
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DreadPirateRandy
Posts: 7729
Joined: 6/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
Does that change who does and doesn't go to Hell?
Assuming you're referring to rejection of Christ, then yes, it does impact your eternal outcome.
Jesus said, "whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
God doesn't force belief or love, that would be rape. He does, however, present us with an option. Either love and serve Him, or hate and reject Him. I found it's easier to give in sooner opposed to later.
Neither does God rejoice in sending people to hell. You have the wrong interpretation of God if you think He's a puppet master in the sky eternally condemning people for nothing but the sake of condemnation.
If He didn't care for your well-being, He would've never sent His son as the ultimate sacrifice for the redemption of mankind. People must have some nerve to reject that.
But then again, with the advances of technology and ever-changing modern science, we have absolutely no use for that fairytale.
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 9:48:01 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
" In what way am I denying God by not being aware he exists when first examining the evidences of all the world religions, then not psychologically "clicking" with any of it to set the belief in motion?
By denying the evidence that He does exist, you deny Him.
quote:
Does this have to do more with me actively trying to deny God or me being (one of the above possible reasons)?
If you search for evidence that says He does not exist, then yes you are actively trying to find some way to deny Him, because in doing so, you are missing all of the obvious evidence that says He does exist. It is a choice you are making to lay aside the evidence of Him.
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With the above in consideration, am I also in effect actively choosing Hell, as is the common apology? Can I choose to go somewhere I wasn't aware existed?"
Truth being told, you do know that hell exists, don't you. You may not acknowledge it as being real. But you know about it, and why it is there, and who goes there, and really all there is to know about it. So no that is not an excuse.
quote:
Can you specifically answer these? If you already did, I apologize for not catching it. It would help me if you were more specific to each question.
I would rather be seen as wise in the eyes of God, and a fool in the eyes of man, than to be seen as wise in the eyes of man, and a fool in the eyes of God.
and heres another quip for you
I would rather live my life like there is a God, and find out in the end that He isn't, rather than to live a life denying Him, yet to find out in the end, that He is.
Here is a verse that I say answers all your questions Romans 1:19-21
19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. (NLT)
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 9:52:37 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
Perhaps I'm too stupid to realize the validity of the Bible's claims. Should I go to Hell because of this? I'm 100% open to the possibility that I'm too stupid to realize the truth.
What is it you hope to accomplish by posting such inflammatory remarks?
I don't think they're inflammatory. It's a serious possibility that I think deserves an answer.
My hope is that people will understand simple lack of belief is not a good qualification for Hell. I hope by revealing my hopes, I haven't broken a TOS rule (if I haven't already) since you asked what they are.
Are you trying to decide the qualifications for someone to go to hell?
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 9:57:59 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
Is it possible to try to believe in the Bible's claims but fail?
Sure it is. If you just pick up a bible and read it without a belief in God, and without a belief in Jesus, then what the bible says may not make any sense to you. If I pick up a book written in another language, and I try to believe in what it says, if I don't know the language, the whole object will become fruitless.
With that being said, If you are truly searching for Him, and you pray for wisdom, and understanding before you read His word, I believe He will make it perfectly clear to you. He will show you His truth, and your eyes and ears will be opened for the first time.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 10:07:26 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe.
So, belief is a simple matter of choice? Can you honestly choose to believe just anything? Can you choose to believe there is a brownie at the center of the earth (no ridicule intended) at a whim?
If you can, you have a skill I've yet to master.
I'm not suggesting you believe at a whim, I'd suggest that you read the bible through and pray that God gives you understanding and that the Holy Spirit will enlighten your mind. If thats not enough then there are countless historical facts that prove the bible to be true including prophecies fulfilled. To start with just the prophecies of Christ being born of a virgin and being crucified and being raised on the third day. If you can't believe these eye witness accounts then maybe you should try to believe on a whim you would be better off after all.
If simply trying to believe in something cannot yield a failure, as you say, why are you now mentioning these tips?
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
I do not believe it is possible to try and believe in the truths of the bible and fail either you believe or you don't believe but it will be a sad state for you in the end after your life on this earth is over if you don't believe.
I'm not trying to prod, just trying to understand your position.
Is it possible that pursuing your advice would still yield a failure in trying to believe?
Trying to believe? Are you trying?
Reading the bible is not what makes a Christian. Why are you putting so much emphasis on reading the bible? And why are you correlating reading it, with believing what it says?
If you are not a believer you may be blind to His truth until you are truly seeking Him.
Yes we do as Christians need to read His word. But that is not where our faith lies. It does not lie in the book, but in the hope and the salvation the book offers. Our faith lies in Jesus, the Lamb of God, who bore our sins and paid the penalty for them, so we could be saved.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 10:19:23 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
quote:
ORIGINAL: whisperingwaters
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
Can the opposing arguments actually make things complicated for some? Is it possible to truly try to believe but find the arguments unconvincing?
I suppose it could make things complicated for some, and you could find the arguments unconvincing but then I don't think you are truly trying to believe.
So, if you're trying your darnedest to believe, the arguments will be convincing? Otherwise, they may not be?
If you are trying your darnedest to believe and you put your hope in the arguments of men to build your faith, then yes, you may find it confusing and they may not be all to convincing.
Which is why we turn to the source, and it is why we say, if you are truly searching for Him, and you turn to Him, He will reveal Himself to you. Either through His word, or maybe through someone or something. Will that 100% without a doubt result in true faith, that is not a question for me to answer, since it is possible to think you are being truly sincere without actually being truly sincere. If you seek Him, will God make Himself known to you, yes, 100% without a doubt in my mind He will. Will you see it, and realize it, and believe it once He does, maybe not.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 10:30:24 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
About hell, EVERYONE deserves to go there, because everyone has committed vile moral offenses against God. No other reason. And our nature does not allow us to go through life without doing it. That is why God graciously opened the way to be with Him through Jesus Christ.
quote:
Does that change WHO goes there and WHO doesn't? Does that change the actual criteria for which people are sent to Hell?
Actually yes it does "change the criteria" for who does and who doesn't go to hell. Whosoever believes, goes to heaven to be with God for eternity, and whosoever chooses not to believe, goes to the other place, the eternal fire prepared for satan and his angels. Read Matthew 25 for more.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 10:50:51 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
OK. Seeking and debating is fine, but what are you going to do when you find evidence for Christ? If you're going to put such evidence aside, your quest is useless.
again, I agree with polarbear.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 10:55:20 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
Where in the Bible does it say that someone that would otherwise go to Hell wouldn't if they were stupid? I'm not talking about mentally disabled. Just stupid.
Or are you saying stupid people always find belief in God?
I'm not following your "you can't go to Hell for being stupid" statement.
Is it possible to have an open heart (not stubborn) but due to stupidity, be unconvinced by the Bible?
Again why are you correlating the bible and believing. Do you know there are other ways to come to faith than reading the bible?
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 11:01:02 AM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrexicKehdaki
I don't have a high IQ. Is it possible that I will remain an atheist because of this? Biblically, will I go to Hell because of this? Did I choose my IQ, and thus, did I choose Hell?
This is a childish argument and does not represent the point psalms was trying to make.
I have noticed a few atheists claim that their intelligence keeps them form believing in God. Yet that is no reason, and just hides the fact that it is the persons pride that stands in the way. I think psalms was saying that even someone with a high IQ can believe in God, because if you look at all the facts without a biased mindset, all the evidence points to God.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 2:20:59 PM
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PolarBear
Posts: 633
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Moving to San Antonio!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SavedByGraceMD
19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
Indeed, I'm convinced that this verse is more true in our generation than it ever has been before. Science is coming up with a mind boggling array of evidences for God.
Those who expect to use the "but there wasn't any evidence" excuse with God are in for a heck of a surprise.
_____________________________
My current ministry dream:
http://victorymuseum.org
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 6/30/2008 11:33:53 PM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
Status: offline
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Sorry about the hiatus. I'm on a trip, and I'm in my hotel room right now. I'll start on the responses right away!
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RE: Questions, questions, questions. - 7/1/2008 12:22:16 AM
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PrexicKehdaki
Posts: 190
Joined: 6/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
I really don't care what degrees
but you stated:
quote:
All I can say is that you have some very erroneous numbers and don't seem to understand the abiogenesis theories, early cell functions, RNA, etc.. etc..
a degree in molecular biology is one that specializes in DNA and RNA ... I was trying to let you know that I do have a thorough knowledge of the subject and am qualified to share the knowledge with some authority. It was in no way an attempt to belittle you in anyway ... I am only attempting to share some knowledge on the subject ... and encourage you to look back on your own understanding of the subject. And again, the numbers are correct ... I checked three references before posting.
You continue with this, even though I've told you I can't reply. But fine, I just hope I don't get banned for this.
"he biggest problem you have for that one is a single strand of DNA (the blueprint needed to form proteins) is composes of 3.1 billion separate elements, all of which need to be in an exact order in order for life to occur."
Not true. If life is simply replicating molecules it can occur with far fewer elements than that. This argument is bunk, because by the same token I am made of a completely unique series of nucleotide bases, and if any one of them was out of place I would not exist. Does that mean I'm some kind of miracle? No, because if I didn't exist, somebody else would exist. If DNA didn't exist, we'd all be made of RNA.
"The probability of this happening, just by chance...."
Yes, but it didn't happen "by chance" so the point is moot. DNA probably evolved from RNA, and as we all know, evolution is not chance.
"the problem with that argument is that there is no evidence for this ancient chemical ocean."
Life probably didn't begin in a primordial ocean.
"yet the earliest sediments have very low nitrogen, about 0.15%"
Early Earth was full of ammonia... NH3.
"when examining the earliest sediments of the Earth, we should find large amounts of nitrogen-rich minerals ... "
We don't have sediments from the time life began on Earth. The earliest sediments we have are several hundred million years younger.
"You have to remember that amino acids come in right handed and left handed versions....."
There's an easy answer to this -- a filter that screens the amino acids.
"have often wondered how anyone who truly thinks things through can believe there is no God."
Because we know better than to use bunk arguments like lack of nitrogen in sediments.
"Dr. Francis Collins MD... brilliant by anyone standards, understands that there is a Creator behind the complexity of life."
If we're taking a poll of brilliant people, (and we SHOULDN'T) the majority think these magical deities are fiction. So we win.
"all of which need to be in an exact order in order for life to occur. (If one is out of place, the molecule will not fold when it needs to or will fold when it shouldn't, causing the strand give the wrong information."
The folding of the DNA strand has nothing to do with the information. You're confusing proteins and DNA. lol
"Stanley Miller..."
Whatever you say about Miller is irrelevant, unless you can show that Miller's experiment is somehow relevant to our understanding of abiogenesis. It isn't. Miller's experiments are half a century old and were flawed. Who cares what he found or what he didn't find? Why not look at experiments that were not flawed, such as Juan Oro?
"My numbers are accurate, I double checked the sources before posting"
I would love to see your source. Even if it's not an online source. Let me know what it is. I want to read this book, or site.. what-have-you.
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ORIGINAL: Psalms274
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Is it possible to have an open heart (not stubborn) but due to stupidity, be unconvinced by the Bible?
Again ... the answer has nothing to do with stupidity or intelligence ... though it is possible for someone to attempt to understand a concept they do not have the ability to understand and be lured into thinking creation did not require a creator.
An example ...
A child at the age of 4 is typically in the preoperative stage of cognitive development ... they do not have the ability of logical reasoning at this stage. So if you present to them a mathematical equation and tell them the results of that equation has a certain meaning, they can repeat it back to you with enough practice (their language development at this stage makes it possible for them to learn the language of math before understanding the concepts behind the language), but have no idea why it is true. You can easily present an incorrect answer and they will whole heartily believe you.
The same is true when trying to use your mind to grasp the meaning of life ... if you do not have the ability to readily absorb and process logical thought and to critically think through a concept, you can end up believing something you have memorized to be true without really understanding the concept behind what you memorized. So if you stubbornly hold onto a belief knowing that you do not have the ability to fully grasp what it is you believe, then yes, you will go to hell for not believing.
The beautiful thing about the gospel is that you do not need to understand, but can choose to. On the other hand, for those who have the ability to critically think through the details of science, history and the bible, they too can come to the same conclusion that there is a Creator and Jesus was who He claimed to be ...
You still haven't directly answered my questions. Here they are again.. please be specific. Like I said, I have a REALLY low IQ, so you'll have to be less vague and more direct to THESE specific questions.
" Where in the Bible does it say that someone that would otherwise go to Hell wouldn't if they were stupid? I'm not talking about mentally disabled. Just stupid.
Or are you saying stupid people always find belief in God? "
You see, I'm not saying you have to be smart to accept the truth claims in the Bible. You're right, and I never argued against, the fact that a unintelligent person can repeat what they're told and get into Heaven.
Are you actually saying stupidity will never allow a person with an open heart to find atheist arguments more convincing to them than Christianity arguments? If not, with the best of your ability, directly answer the questions.
As far as being stubborn goes. People who are actually trying to deny the Bible, while it is still convincing to them -- could they being doing so due to the events in their life? Perhaps they were abused by Christianity (or Christians, rather) or they hate the idea that their hypothetical atheist loved one who passed away is now suffering in Hell. There are thousands of reasons why someone may be actively running from Biblical truth claims. What reasons do you feel are acceptable for sending someone to Hell forever and what reasons do you feel aren't, if any?
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ORIGINAL: Psalms274
As to your statement " Please, you know very very well I can't address these things. You're being unfair. Please, just answer questions." If you had thoroughly read what I wrote you would see I wasn't looking for you to answer the questions ... I was looking for you to think critically, which I have yet to see evidence of in your posts .... critical thinking involves researching both sides of the argument from both perspectives.
No! I refuse to think critically. I want to stay an ignorant atheist!
Please, just don't ask questions you know I can't answer here. I'm just asking you to do this for me, I have no authority on this site.
That thread was against the rules, and you already pressured me into possibly breaking the rules again above. You've got to stop. You're going to get me banned.
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ORIGINAL: Psalms274
There have been a number of offers for you to pm people with your arguments to get around the TOS ... but you have declined the offer ... so to cry no fair is silly ... you can always pm me or any of the others here who have offered to present your side ...
If you do chose to pm me ... be sure to do your homework first ... which means looking at both sides critically. And think it through ... don't just spit back something you have read that sounds good ... make sure you can break it down in simple terms and be able to discuss both sides. That's the real test on how well you know a topic.
I'm pretty sure you don't know what's happening in my PM box. I've been carrying out conversations with a few people here, including Gazingstock.
You have to understand, Psalms, I'm booked. All the time I spend here is all the time I can. I can't cater myself to private lectures by you. Feel free to PM me with what ever you want, but I don't have time to give you special attention.
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ORIGINAL: Psalms274
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If God knows what WILL happen to me, does that mean it MUST happen? Why must it happen? What's dictating that it must happen? The laws of nature? Does this interfere with free will?
I know this was addressed to another ... but ... God is eternal ... no beginning, no ending ... He made time for us and is not limited by time. If He knows something will happen in our future, from His perspective it has already happened ... yesterday and today are the same.
Right, that was established already. My question is what allows for our futures to be known rather then not yet determined. You're thinking about it wrong. We have time, we'll think of it as a long box, and God is outside it (or inside too?) and is able to see the beginning all the way up to the end. The question isn't HOW God sees our future, as this is already established (as theoretical as it may be), the question you misunderstood is a WHY-question.
You see, if Christians had presented me with a String-theory-esque version of time and higher dimensions, meaning that what God would be looking at is more of an infinite tree of possible choices we could all make, then I wouldn't be asking this question. However, Christians present this answer in the form of a single spatial line of time. Take that in consideration and I think you'll understand the question better.
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ORIGINAL: Psalms274
His sovereignty and the free will He gives us is something that cannot be understood with our finite minds ... His wisdom is infinite ... ours is not. There is not a human on this earth that will have the kind of knowledge and wisdom He processes, and there are somethings we can never know because of our own limitations.
Well I guess there's no point in questioning something you admit you can't possibly comprehend. | | |
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